rascal

Lets get this straight.....we had a man who had proven himself to be unstable ..... he had demonstrated his lack of spiritual discernment by repeatedly acting out on false information and making assumptions about peoples character and motives whom he had never met. When proven wrong, he never apologised or You had this man DEMANDING a sworn oath of loyalty.....stating uncatagoprically *and don`t give me any of that standing with God crap* ......standing with God was called CRAP by this man demanding our unswerving loyalty and allegiance....... he required this from people who were not even twig coordinators....being people of integrety....we knew that to swear that oath to him....to pledge our loyalty to him....rather than God or the ministry....we were setting ourselves up to be honor bound to support this man in whatever crazy direction that he chose to go. We had two choices swear an oath of allegiance to a mad man or accept the consequences of angering him further. Sure it would have been easy to write the damned letter and feel safe a little while longer....but it wouldn`t have been honest.....EVEN had craig been in the right....he required from us that which he had no right to. Our loyalty was and always would be to God almighty and not any man.

Oh I don`t think that it was just low level leaders def....When I got pregnant on the wow field....J & N Townsend, the state (region ?) soon to be on the bot assured me that there was no shame in what I had done.... (much to my shock) UNLESS I allowed it to prevent me from keeping my commitment on the wow field and entering into residence in the fall. I was a right little hero for honoring my commitment to God by aborting the child. Undoubtedly he was pleased with his little doulos.... Hey LOOK at what I am willing to do for YOU God <_<

Chef...who do you think taught Loy that he had to *loosen up* in the sexual areas? Yeah...he said that to lcm....who taught loy that he was entitled to anything he pleased......that *all things are legal to them which are in christ* ...who recomended that loy marry donna? I think vp or his doctrines anyway had a heck of a lot to do with what lcm eventually became.....

I was a newbie in al ...so was`t privy to the hush hush stuff....the murders were never discussed.... George Aar had all of the details if I remember correctly. Guess these guys just simply didn`t merrit God`s hand of protection .... Nor did the wow who witnessed to me in al .....she died in a car accident during our pfal class..... Lorna, It is funny that you say that *all in all God had his protection on them and most enjoyed their experience* .... because WE were told that satan killed the wow to stop the movement of the word.....where the hell was God and HER protection??? Sorry but beatings, rapes, death when suffered tend to be in the catagory of *negative stuff* .... it is a little difficult to put a *positive* spin on these occurances unless one choses to just pretend that it didn`t happen or that the suffering was unimportant. Oh well, I suppose as long as one personally had a good time while in twi....the rest of this should simply be dismissed in the interest of keeping things a little more upbeat around here. <_< Yes Morgan....you are correct, ALSO I know of several cases where criminal prosecution was HEAVILY discouraged. The victims were told to keep quiet *lest the ministry be blamed*...that *biblically it MUST be handled in house* If a victim sought recourse they were shunned....those that allowed the ministry to *handle it* would often find out years later that the offender had been moved to a different part of the country ...to prey on yet a new set of unsuspecting folks.

Yeah samurai....wow was presented as a way to *go and grow with God* Ten years spiritual growth in one....people were strong armed into it....being told that it would help them address all of their problems....people who had no business being put under that kind of stress away from family and support systems....but hey, since a leaders effectiveness was judged by numbers....there wasn`t anything most would do to get folks into the classes, out onto the wow field...into the corpes....it was how ones success was gauged..... If you didn`t go wow....the love was withdrawn....most of us would do anything to be well thought of, to be lauded as an ambassoador with all of the pomp.... I STILL have nightmares after 20 years about going out wow.

Well ...all I can say is that it was too bad that the family of wows who were murdered by their family coordinator in Al in 78 or 9 should have simply *renewed their minds* a little better.....it CERTAINLY couldn`t have been the ministries fault for placing those unsuspecting people in harms way.... There probably was some other purpose served.....else God would have told those leaders who were making the choices of placement by spiritual revelation ...no?

All I know is that our letter demanded to know if we stood with lcm...the one line that stood out was .. *and don`t give me any of that standing with God crap*...seriously! That is when Mark looked up at me and said sadly *we will ALWAYS stand with God* ....and stubbornly refused to write a loyalty letter... at this point we were as loyal to the ministry and it`s leaders as we EVER were.... Oakspear...I have told you before....WE were not employees, we were not leaders....his demands for our loyalty were uncalled for....... THAT is when we got a 2nd scathing letter saying that we were *salt that had lost it`s savor* *fit only to be tossed to the street and trodden under the feet of the beatsts*....ie worthless He couldn`t take a fellowship away from us....he couldn`t ban us from the fellowship that our friends ran because he had already dissasociated it from twi on information he recieved from the town looney....our bc knew it our lc knew it...but mr all 9 all the time never bothered to check with them before acting..... make no mistake.....that letter was nothing more than craig declaring a containeding contest and throwing a childish temper tantrum when he lost. The man was seriously unstable.....he wanted complete power...and when he was denied...... ..... he tried to mess you up any way he could..... His demands were unaceptable to anyone with integrity and honor.

Claiming that folks file law suits because they are *out to destroy the ministry* is a way to deflect attention of the believers from considering the illegal conduct that brings the law suits to court in the first place.........TWI wouldnt want the followers to consider that people file lawsuits because twi has committed crimes according to the laws of this country and will be forced to face the consequences of their flagrant abuse. As far as what I would do? Nobody could do a better job of destroying twi than mr.martindale

I wanted to send greetings from our wonderfull Bell`s home in sunny Orlando ..... This gal is truly the gracious hostess that her name implies ...lol......She welcomed me and the clan into her home...fed us and offered us rest....bless her heart.... She has a beautifull home that she shares with her very tallented companion *Vixen*. There are pictures all over the walls of their victories together in the dog ring :) She graciously offered to allow me my greasespot *fix* this morning when I complained of my intense withdrawal symptoms

Those figures baffle me as well....It doesn`t occur to me to lie....now on occasion leave out pertinant information..... :P guilty as charged.... What I tell spouse on the phone....*Honey I let our daughter get a new puppy*... (what I didn`t say....*it is 125 lb great dane* :o ) ....

OR he has very wisely hit the *ignore* button... ....in any case you are wrong Allan, The CLASSY thing to do would be to apologise

There IS a problem because you have either A) revealed a posters identity without permission or .... B ) misidentified a poster which could lead to problems for said poster. Both are bad form, attacking posters personally or for their beliefs is not acceptable either. While your venom, your bad manners and your unwarranted personal attacks....are perfectly understandible behavior in someone who has been a long time participant in a viscious mind bending cult......it doesn`t inspire respect for you or your pov. Your personal conduct is a prime example of what the end result of belief in twi doctrine is....You are an inspiration Allan, but not in the way that you would hope....

I know that vpw was kept secluded his final years.....When LCM became president...he and the bot told the older folks and leadership....to stay away from vpw because they (the bot) needed all of his time and energy to teach them how to run the ministry. Apparently vp was unaware of what the bot was doing ....because friends that had been kept at arms length for a few years finally made contact and found out that he was completely bewildered as to why everyone had seemingly abandoned him. As I understand it he was lonely and felt betrayed...swept aside

Yeah, bad form to disclose the identity of another poster without their permission. As far as what innies see here? Well it has been more than enough to help many of them leave twi....the most recent of which left just this week and is posting :D I`d say that gs is successfull and has been in lighting the path to the door for many many hundreds of innies for over 5 years now ...even WITHOUT your sanction or aproval allan

Being one of the said *attendees* ....I can elaborate your accurate description wolf..... There have been four weenie roasts to date....the last one was this weekend in ky at mammoth caves. Every year with the benefit of our combined input....our benevolent dictator, Mr. Herbal picks a location and a date....and folks show up...greasespotters, some spouses, some friends who have never heard of gs or twi..., kids....the kids of friends.....we camp, eat, talk, eat, enjoy the local sights, talk, eat.....the kids fish...while we eat n maybe talk a little more......there is usually some dramatic event...asthma attacks half way up the mt....poison oak inadvertantly thrown on the fire (with disaterous results :o )...children lost in snipe hunts...(but quickly recovered ) experiments in culinary arts (ie forgotten ingrediants) resulting in chocolate biscuts.... ....kids roasting hot dogs and smores from dawn till dusk.......all good clean fun There are different greasespot gatherings....but generally this one in the south is known as the *great southern weenie roast* There is a thread in the open forums....but just read the last two pages....as the previous were the planning stages. It is rumoured that next years will be in july or august on a small island at a lake in ky of little hawks chosing :)

Wow, Nato, welcome welcome!!! It is crushing to realise that all we believed the ministry was .... was a deception.....we were so pure in our hearts and commitment, we never dreamed that those in charge in the ministry were not as earnest. I applaud you leaving with your head high and dignity intact....for that is the only thing one with integrety and character can do when faced with the reality of twi. Be prepared to see the *foot off the hose* so to speak....all of the blessings and joys that God has been wanting to give you but has not been permitted.....I know, it sounds wierd.....but you will see. I don`t know anybody once experienceing the exhilleeration of freedom and breathing of fresh air outside of twi that would willingly return ..... It kind of takes the *goodness* out of the kinder gentler ministry when you know that all of the policies that have been suspended, all of the m&a stopped, the cruel treatment hidden....simply because they are in so much legal hot water that they are doing it to save their skins.... The bot knew about lcm for FIVE years...knew that he was requiring participation or m&a ing the pretty corpes gals....they KNEW about it but didn`t lift a finger untill they were required legally. They are just as rotten and corrupt as they ever were....they just have to cease now that the focus of their illegal activities had been exposed.... Isn`t it a bite that our hard earned abs is/has been used for years to pay millions to their attornies and settle law suits?

Excathedra, I have seen the God that you knew, through YOU girl. Your posts without exception were what awoke my spouse and I. Not that we are anything important, but without the guts to post what had to be incredibly difficult to share in a climate of folks who still worshipped vpw and his leaders.....we would have never woken up....i would have spent the rest of my life trying to operate the *prinicples* and blaming myself for the failures !!!! Excathedra, you were the FIRST to tell us on these boards that vpw was NOT the man of God he portrayed himself to be...that had to take courage. I would have stayed forever in the mold that twi forced me into....it would have never occured to me to doubt the legalistic, works centered hard nosed God that was presented to me in twi.... it would have been a mighty bleak existance. most of us *get it* excathedra...those who don`t or see you as an attention seeker...(gawd as if ANYONE really wants that kind of attention) are simply trying to preserve their rosey colored twi experience....God must remain in the little box that we constructed in twi and that makes sense to us.... If they consider what you post.....the whole world comes tumbeling down...life as they know it ceases to exist.... the thing is...that THAT world is an illusion...you threaten that ex....so they have to make YOU the villain or the liar in order to avoid having to face reality and rebuild ones universe. Excathedra, I would like to see more of the God that saw you through the difficulties....the one I see communicated through you and your posts....that is the one that I am coming to know ..... and I find more and more that he wasn`t allowed and I really didn`t know much about him in twi. I hope that you will never let the folks who want us to remain decieved intimidate you.....for you have seen the God of twi up close and for real...you have seen past the carefully manufactured illusion presented to the rest of the folks involved with twi......you have seen the ugliness that was at the very heart of it all. You have my appreciation for speaking out even when it is made so difficult.

aaaaw Oak, you are SO loved, we will take as much of you as you are willing to give....I was unable to attend your wedding but to not even send a card is inexcusable on my part.......please don`t see it as a lack of caring....just no class on my part.....one of those *things* that I was gonna get around to and never did.. As for the weenie roast....well it was 3 1/2 hours verses 20 of driving and gas for me :( ..... Does it help you to know that you and your bride were toasted....even shopped for at the jelly stone ranger station??? You were not forgotten, we just assumed that you had a new set of priorities :) Please, You may not need us buddy, but we damned sure need you round here ... I hope that you will forgive me anyway for not making your wedding more of a priority .... Life has been insane this fall....I wish that I could do it over and do it right...I am sorry.

You don`t report a post to the moderator, call people and make threats when you are joking stl. He is mad at all of us for not taking this seriously.....and according to his posts in the doctrinal section about had it with us here.

People DID take a stand jet...and were promptly thrown out for their pains.....so...why didn`t folks hear about it? Oh you did.....but all you heard was that we were possessed or not meek or had gotten tricked by the adversary....don`t talk to us because you might get posessed too.... It is a mistake for you to assume that people didn`t stand up for themselves and others....

Bell, I talked to mark last night...he had been following the thread....and had to pick up my folks at the airport yesterday....lol...he was gonna suprise you and meet you at your flight.... Hee hee, it probable wouldda scared the heck outta ya though....a strange man trying to get your attention at the orlando airport...... :unsure: rofll He didn`t get there quite in time though....my Dad`s flight was a litlle later. I had forgotten about the puter withdrawals.....what a scream...alla us gathered around paw ...eager for just a glimpse at the forums....we are sad sad people :( Mammoth caves were a blast, thank your folks again if you would....they were wonderfull.... Robin, I believe that you were responsible for the location....I`d say you made a good choice....and thanks :)

Lighter side? STL, He was dead serious.....

Awww Bell, y`all give me entirely too much credit...I just happened to be the most visible....you didn`t see sushi and abby and jean back at their camps cooking up a storm....or your mom and others doin the dishes, organising the tables....it ABSOLUTELY was a collaborative effort. Somebody was always cooking eggs and bacon, and biscuts in the other camps and cabins..... Sushi n Abby were up before everyone every morning , makin the coffee so the rest of us could function :) In addition to a great sunday breakfast, Sushi made outstanding chili friday night when I failed to get to camp in time to do supper.... Bell, the sticky buns both mornings were scrumshus.... Jean made a fabulous salad and spaghetti saturday night....sushi n I tried to help..... There were plenty of snacks and smore`s n drinks, plates, plastic ware, napkins....alla the extras that made things nice were provided by robin, and bow, mr. hamm. I am afraid I am leaving someone out.....

Z has an excellent idea....I agree, as I have found this to be true as well. It is very refreshing to learn something new....to stretch yourself physically and mentally at our age. I started karate at 40 and now compete in tournaments. Sure I am not worth a darn compared to the younger folks....but hey, I am a darn sight better than I was 4 years ago...lol I have made great friends with some of the folks at the dojo.....I enjoy seeing the folks from around the country that show up at competitions.....there is something very satisfying about the intense work and exercise, the preparation for exams, the pride of accomplishment when promoted....at 44 I get a bigger kick outta the trophies I bring home than the kiddoes do..... If money is an issue.....try to see if there isn`t a free program in your area...in our area, there is karate for Christ that is operated as an outreach service for churches....it is free. It doesn`t matter what you chose....just pick something you enjoy that will help you to stretch yourself. Dog obediance training, horse training, trail riding, bowling league, motorcycle clubs, military reenactment clubs, hiking, ANYTHING that will get you out and challenge you physically, and stretch your imagination :)

sure they would....whatta pity that the *good that was there* was mearly an illusion for the evil to hide behind....and manipulate with...... Too damned bad twi wsn`t what we thought it was....because as many *Godly* people that selflessly donated millions of hours of selfless service and millions of dollars in money.....we could have accomplished quite a positive impact in the world. Groucho is right...we were lied to, and stolen from in GOD`S name......absolutely despicable imo.