rascal

Jerry, thank you for your civility...... my frustration certainly isn`t with you. It is this whole mentality of others that simply because they personally had a good time....God was in charge. Damn it....Jerry that is SO sad about those poor people....imagine the honesty the eagerness with which each of those earnest folks volunteered to give their utmost for HIS highest for ONE year of their lives....imagine their enthusiasm as they embarked on their journey....fired up expecting to be ambassadors for christ....eagerly anticipating the miracles and groath of ten years......expecting to be on the front lines of the spiritual battle....determined to strike a blow for God against the ruler of darkness......only to be met with death. and THEN the real tradgedy .... is that then ...... those innocent wows themselves were blamed....*somebody must have missed revelation* ....geeze o pete .... that is just sick. It could have been you or me that had been assigned to the family ...innocently riding as passengers...oblivious to the impending danger and death....

I know oak....the first time I had a vein popping spittle flying face melting session as app corpes from my lc ...it left me so terrified that I scuttled around frantically trying to find a way to appease his rage....to work my way back into his/God`s good graces. I NEVER wanted to contained God/a leader off at me like that again....I carefully... obsessively crossed all my *t*s and dotted all of my *I*s agonized over every decision......always terrified that I might earn another enraged confrontation. Judging from the tone of his voice and his loving exasperation with me.... I think he was astonished at how far some had taken that teaching. I only know that he handled me with kid gloves after that...gently teaching me that EVERYONE was to be held accountable to the standard of the word.....he seemed to detest bullies.

Oldies said: So then you believe that nobody in twi ever received revelation or godly inspiration? NOBODY said that...... you manipulator of words .....what we DID say was that TWI LIED when they told us that they made wow placements by revelation. we ALSO said that .......proof would indicate that God DIDN`T protect ALLl of us ....and it is a fallacy to say that the majority of us enjoyed the program....as laleo stated Well, we just disagree. :lol: Damned right we will. Agreed Jerry, luck and preperation, our willingness to follow the program through in spite of difficulties played a huge part in the results.... Some of us got the sh!t beat out of us in SPITE of our best efforts to do all of the above...as is witnessed by the vast difference of experience in my first and second wow years.... My point is.... If God had been in charge AS we were told....all of us would have been protected AND enjoyed the program.....as it was.... results varied from the greatest year of ones life....to being the death of another.... I can excuse and forgive mistakes, I can understand and excuse human error....I do not feel that humans should be infallible......but DON`T try to tell me that God was willing to bless and protect you and laleo and others ...... and not the boy who was murdered...or the wow who witnessed to me who died....

I know that other organizations/businesses are held legaly liable forANY harm that their leaders/employees cause. TWI was scared of getting their arses sued off, if people found out just how culpable they were. Our county here was just held legally liable to the tune of 500,000 plus court costs for the deaths of two children when the car their aunt was driving was swept off the road in a flood.....NO the county didn`t push the car into the rain swollen river or hold the childrens heads under water (no twi didn`t fire the gun that held the bullet) HOWEVER the county WAS aware of the tendency of this particular area for the river to sweep over the road.....(TWI had to or should have known the tendancies of thier leader in training were as well...but he probably was able to achieve the results they wanted) our county leaders solution was to place warning signes out when flooding was dangerous...(twi`s solution was to enroll troubled souls in ever more participation , assuming that God would heal/cover) ......problem was that THAT particular night the employees placed the signes too close to the flooding so that when an unsuspecting motorist came around the bend and over the bridge doing the speed limit of 55 ....it was tragically too late....our county will pay and rightfully so for the harm caused. TWI was legally culpable for placing people in harms way countless times....just look at the lead accident.........they always managed to strong arm people into not seeking legal recourse through intimidation and manipulation.

Abso friggin lutely Frank.....a suggestion was tantamount to a command....I learned that the first meeting on the wow field..... Peter obeyed the mog and walked out when commanded...not looking at his five senses the wind blowing the waves ... the negatives surrounding him...he did as commanded ...and HE got to walk on water....the other deciples who stayed safely on the boat ...only got to watch When Peter got concerned...began to look around ..ie paid attention to his 5 senses ... he sank... We TOO could walk on water ...we just needed to obey the mog no matter WHAT our 5 senses told us...no matter HOW rediculous or dangerous the request appeared to be. Did we want to get to walk on water like peter???? Besides EVEN in the unlikely event that leadership was wrong....God would HAVE to honor our hearts and commitment and bless us anyway....yup it was a win win situation to obey implicitly first time every time. In other words....shut down your critical thinking and obey leadership without question immediatly before your 5 senses could trip you up.... or you might miss out on a miracle from God.... Rev. John Scott 1 st state wow meeting in Little Rock Ark. Aug, 1979 I would (and did) have done ANYTHING asked, as I desperatly wanted to be pleasing to God. This was not debunked untill sept. 1985 on my 2nd wow year by John Townsend.....he was agahst that this was being widely taught...... He asked me in exasperation one time when he found out about prior bullyings from a former lc ...*Did you not think to ever CHECK what your leaders required of you against the word*???? Truthfully......It never EVER dawned on me :unsure:

Yeah well I guess that means that God just must have liked you a laleo just a little better than the folks that were unfortunate enough to be placed with the *bad* leadership....Jerry gets a good year, Georges wow buddy in ala is murdered by his leadership .....laleo gets a good year .... the wow that came to my town dies in a car wreck.....Some are fortunate enough to have God smile on them and get sent to miami ....and have a great year....others get sent to fargo and are so miserable that they have to take out their anger on the rest of the believers..... Shoot, I had one ok year and one that was an absolute nightmare ....I suppose that God protected me one year and figured that I wasn`t worthey to be blessed the next. I have a problem with folks saying that God was being consulted in our placements and in charge of the program......that God blessed them....when across the country others were placed in harms way by the same leadership claiming to be placing us by revelation....telling us we were going where God needed us and would bless us...that we would be doing his will....and grow ten years .......insisting that we trust them implicitly ....only to then be placed in untenable positions...it is like saying that some who volunteered weren`t worthey of Gods favor or blessings.....some were rewarded for their commitment, others were betrayed. I understand and actually agree with you Jerry, that the type of year one had being dependent mainly on who your leaders were....but it shouldn`t have been so if God were in charge as they claimed .....EVERYBODY would have been worthey of good leadership ...EVERYBODY would have been assigned to a great location.....EVERYBODY who participated worthey great blessings and EVERYBODY worthey of God`s protection..... Either twi leaders lied about how much imput God allowed....or God wanted to bless only some of us and didn`t give a damn about others.

It was a rediculous claim for them to have made, no doubt...........The twi leaders had no business claiming that they were working by revelation and inspiration ...requiring our implicit trust and obediance based on that authority...... the incidents of death listed are but examples of how tragically wrong they were. They screwed up big time, but couldn`t let people find out because it was glaring proof of the errors of their every teaching and premiss.

Because twi bot promised us that we could trust them with our lives...twi bot told us that if we would just make the commitment....GOD would bless us.... We were told repeatedly that we must trust their judgement and insight...that God would work through them to put us in the best place.... We were promised that twi leaders used revelation to make these assignments.....we were promised that we would be serving God in an area of need.... Given what we know happened this obviously was not the case......that leaves us two options...A ) twi lied outragiously ....or B ) wi leaders recieved their revelation from a source OTHER than God... ALSO....It seems to me that the organization/programs were seriously flawed if that fc was able to get as far as his interim year in the corpes without anybody becoming concerned about his mental state...and potential harm to others.... Kindda like repeatedly giving pedophiles (some even known to the bot) fellowships and childrens fellowships that placed folks under the power and authority of these predators...GEEEZE talk about a LACK of spiritual insight or discernment abilities <_<

Thank you George for those details. Do you remember what year that was? That poor guy, the hell he must have been through even BEFORE he was murdered....doing his damndest to live by a flawed standard.....probably believed that it was his own fault that it wasn`t working....

You are correct lifted ....my observation was addressed to oldies...

Lifted, if you are speaking of our interactions, nobody owes you anymore details than they are willing to give.... It would be unconscionable for me or anyone to give out the names and details of a story that was not theirs personally to share without the individuals permission, no matter how importuned to satisfy somebody`s curiosity.... As far as Vince being unwilling to give details...maybe it involved innocent parties, maybe his information was not his to share....maybe he hoped that folks thought enough of his integrety and decades of service, to consider warnings on those merrits alone. Maybe he figured that those with *ears to hear* would.... It is like a guy is trying to warn everybody that there is a train coming full speed, He has *heard* the whistle blow, he tells folks he can *feel* the ground rumble with it`s approach....he points out the descending crossing gates, the flashing lights, the bells clanging madly......and there are STILL a bunch of folks obstinatly standing in the middle of the tracks, arms crossed feet planted, stubbornly demanding more specifics on the engine number, the number of cars, what color is the caboose, passenger or freight.........short of physically dragging them unwillingly off the tracks....there isn`t a whole one can do. Sometimes you just give up and walk away.

I don`t know that you were anymore serious about learning the truth back then than you are today.....You demand first hand accounts and confirmatory details from people here....and when accomodated..... you summarily dismiss them .........maybe VF had had enough of arguing with people by that point.... It would seem that there were enough details for tens of thousands of people to make an informed decision as to the wisdom or Godliness of absolute loyalty/obediance to lcm....the subsequent history of the 90s with the scandals and lawsuits, the destruction of families and lives.....has shown them to be correct in their decision....there is no excuse for you not to have come to the same conclusion....it almost sounds like you want to blame vf for you personally not cottoning on a little sooner.... LCM had charted a course of destruction for himself and the ministry that NOBODY but he could have altered.

Bell...I would love to come and watch....I have seen those trials on tv before. I have to do some calculating....and will get back to you.

Maybe Vince felt that it would be a waste of time to try to convince you of anything. . I don`t think vince or anybody else owed you the sordid little details....his warning was clear for anyone who chose to trust his perceptions and judgements...... John lynn and Ralph Dubofsky tried to warn as well....we always found ways to ignore those who attempted to sound the alarm..... They are posessed....if you listen YOU will become posessed....they have listened to Satan, have been beguiled....are in left field.....trying to destroy God`s ministry...working for satan.....etc When we tried to explain to believers why we were unwilling to swear loyalty....they couldn`t hear us either...when it was demanded....we willingly shared the insight that we had been privy to...why we knew that it was morally wrong to swear feality to lcm....what we knew that he had done..........we were always viewed as dishonest...trying to stir up trouble....if we had poloroid snap shots in living color....they would have found ways to disregard that which they didn`t want to accept. We all had too many years invested to believe the horrible accounts eminating from hq. We desperatly needed to believe that we were right....that the ministry was what we believed it to be....the alternative was unthinkable.

Same guy ...same moraly bankrupt character. The DIFFERENCE between 89 and 99 was that there were not very many people with the guts left to take a stand against his cruelty and perversions. The cruel legalism and viscious destruction that marked the 90s were I believe, a direct result of the casting out of those tens of thousands with the integrety that made them incapable of swearing *loyalty* to lcm. Mr. Hamm, I believe that you are correct, we WOULD have lent an air of legitimacy with our integrety and honesty....luring yet more innocent people to be used and cast aside in God`s name. Thankyou Sunesis.

Most of the leaders tried very hard to support lcm....he just wouldn`t have ANY of it....most knew that things had been very wrong at hq for years and were eager to help get the ministry back on the right track. ...but they were simply maligned and thrown out.........he didn`t WANT to be questioned, confronted, required to behave within the standards of morality dictated biblically of a leader.... He decided that HE wasn`t in the wrong...and ANYBODY who didn`t see it that way was required to leave at once. By demanding a loyalty oath, He made damned sure that any whom had the moral character and integrety to hold him to a Godly standard, plus the courage to speak up....were made out to be the villains ....in order to keep people from considering...... Oldies MAYBE these leaders figured nothing they said to you would make any difference....many of us found ways to excuse craigs behavior no matter how heinous. Many of us when we were treated vilely .... didn`t *rat* out the ministry because we were trying desperatly to prove that we were not evil and posessed...out in left field....like they said would happen if we became hard hearted or stiff necked...their words for any who dared disagree when confronted by the blatant evil. Breaking *lock box* was evil..... critisizing the ministry was evil...... revealing the sins of the man of God were considered viscious back biting evil....most just tried their best to stand on their principles without succumbing to what was declared the fate of any who left.......to have sat down with you Oldies and describe every little detail of the evil witnessed with you would have been considered back biting and disloyal ....folks back then were STILL fighting for the ministry . You have to think about it....WHAT would have happened if all of us had ignored our moral obligation... lied and penned a loyalty oath letter to this lunatic.....WHAT would have happened if LCM had had ALL of the support and power that he craved and claimed was his due???? What if we had all aquieced to his every whim so as not to be thrown out and remain in good standing ????? Does anyone HONESTLY believe that he would have changed his behavior one iota? Oh HECK no....he would have been just that much more secure in his evil practices...we are NOT talking about a spiritual Godly man here.... He would have still been behaving in an ungodly manner....requiring corps girls to participate in sex acts that they personally found loathsome....following his predesessors standard of casting any who refused out of the corpes, out of the ministry and telling everyone that those who had frustrated his desires were so posessed that to even SPEAK with them was to risk contamination....yeah this stuff really happened... He would have STILL been manipulating and requiring married women to commit adultery with him in order to retain their spiritual status and jobs.... This guy was out of control...and all of the power and all of the unquestioning support would have changed nothing....Good LORD he had had all of those things for a decade unquestioned, had been the beneficiary of millions of hours of prayer and more money than he could possibly find ways to spend...........and yet he STILL was behaving viley, destroying people on a whim, acting without aprising himself of the facts resulting in great harm to peoples lives....throwing tempertantrums, This a man who supposedly worked for God almighty who was more viscious and damaging to christian people than the vilest of unbelievers.....there was NOTHING that we could have done to have convinced him to follow the path of a man of the spirit....he chose otherwise.... If we had given him that which he required, we would have been selling our souls into darkness...and still we would have been unable to change the course that lcm had charted.

Naw. no lasting effects whatsoever, other than a new healthy respect from spouse for my personal drinks/food etc ...lol Honest to GAWD I was heart pounding sick to my stomache horrified, good little wafer wife that I was at the time...(and NO, he wouldn`t let me call poison control) .....BUT I discovered for the FIRST time ever ....that when I get extremely nervous or scared.....so help me .... I get a fit of the giggles (it happened on my last karate exam too) My profuse apologies and pleas for forgiveness somehow lacked sincerity when offered between the peals of laughter :( Belle, I guess it was a good thing I save this story for AFTER the weenie roast eh?

I gotta agree with the councelor on this one Out of da fog...... How fortunate for your daughter to be comfortable enough to come to you with issues.....verses the parents who`s child has to lie. I know so many people who suffer needlessly because thaey were so terrified of the consequences of veering away from the *this is how it is to be* dogma ....... I had a friend a dear friend ...staunch christian...whom I came to a parting of the ways with when she found out that I allowed my children to read harry potter....now mind you it had been two years previously...and our boys had been best buds all of this time and she had not noticed any inherant evil ..... so anyway, she severs ties with my boys.....but one night she came to work (she was my relief) and disgustedly showed me a yugio card deck that my son had left at her house....she was deeply offended and asked me *have you LOOKED at those??? why they are just evil*... rather indignant that I would allow my son access to something so potentially damaging...very self rightious in her protection of her child.... Well, I took em home...not seriously concerned and asked the boy about them because up to this point I did not know that he had ever played with them.....well he told me the REAL story....Justin was terrified of the whipping that he would have recieved from his mother when she found them, because he knew that she did not allow those things....so he lied and said they were Stephens (my son) and he was just going to keep em for him. So here it is MY child is the one that looked evil....but HER son is the one sneaking forbidden objects home, forced to lie when discovered....IIn the ensuing year, I found out that the other boy had done some pretty perverted things.... I would MUCH rather have my kids coming to me in all honesty for help with their issues rather than feel that they have to hide them from me....and no this isn`t about sexuality ...it IS about being able to communicate . Fog, I have a step sister that was so traumatised before her adoption that she was never able to speak of it...her behavior steadily worsened....and her adoptive parents (my Dad and his wife) simply became more stricter the punishment ever escalating ....to this DAY she has never been able to seek help about the horrors that she suffered before she was 5 and cast to the street to live out of garbage cans.....she has never been able to tell her strict adoptive parents what troubled her....she had to build a false identity, new name, new history so that she could pretend that her past didn`t exist....How much nicer if that child had been able to feel comfortable enough to confide her *secret shame* to her parents, so that they could have sought the help she needed to deal with her damaged little soul. Good for you Fog, how fortunate for your daughter.... you are an inspiration to the rest of us in our struggle to raise our teenagers as we attempt to steer them through the pitfalls.

People of integrety and honor left at that point...knowing full well that when we left...that many of the folks who would take our places were legalistic hard nosed bullies....those are the ones who were being rewarded.....the nastier you were the higher up the tree you were assigned.. When we were removed for not complying with his dishonest request....think about it....anyone who had the integrety and courage to stand up and say *no this is not right or reasonable* we knew full well that this was mostly an excuse to get people out of the way that had been attempting to stand with decency and honor against the tide of cruelty and legalism. Just imagine how in one fell swoop lcm managed to rid the ministry of any who would interfere with his lunacy.... When we were removed....we knew that most of the genuinely kind upper leadership...the ones who had protected their people from the worst antics at hq were forced into leaving as well.... We didn`t WANT to go....we had every intention of supporting twi as ardently as ever....but lcm didn`t want that.......we were lifers....never considered not being in twi and supportinmg it with every fiber of our being.... I remember being grieved for what was going to happen to people without the folks of integrety and loyalty to God rather than a man left.....the folks who had been standing in the gap so to speak.....attempting to stem the tide of harsh legalism....... I could see how bleak participation in twi was going to be with only the hard nosed bullies being recognised and given authority..... I think time showed exactly what happened when lcm got everyone out of thw way who would attempt to stem his cruelty and perversion....all HELL broke loose....there were to few left to stop it.....not because we didn`t WANT to be there to fight for what we thought was God`s miniostry, but because we were denied access. He didn`t want anyone that had the courage to stand for God.

ok, ok ...if y`all PROMISE not to tell Guest spouse that I told you this one.....(looking furtively around to make sure that I am alone) In our early years of marriage, spouse was very bad about grabbing my freshly poured drink and sucking most of it down without asking....leaving me with an empty glass. Well, one day during my first pregnancy....I had to take a urine sample first thing in the morning to take to the dr.s office later that afternoon....well the little bottle is entirely too small so of course I used an old juice glass, and placed it on the counter beside me...the contents of which were to be transferred to the specimen jar when I had finished my business.....at that very moment...... spouse breezed in grabbed what he thought was my apple juice and bolted it down!!!!! All I could do was gaze at him ....WAY too horrified to say a word....and then WORSE when he exploded in outrage....ALL I could do...as upset as I was was laugh hysterically...I profusely apologised over and over again ...horrified at what I had done...but somehow in between gasps for breath between the peels of my laughter, he didn`t believe me.....it was a DARN good thing I was still sittin cause I`d a wet myself for sure..... That was the last time I ever remember touching a drink of mine

I was ordained as a reverend (or was it my doctorate?) at the weenie roast two years ago, and have the scrap of paper torn out of a spiral ring note pad on which my ordination decread by Oakspear to PROVE it! Hey, it is worth as much as wierwille`s was.... AND I didn`t have to pay for mine :)

....and he was dead wrong wasn`t he? You are still attempting to imply that lcm was a reasonable man, making a reasonable demand from people whom owed him NOTHING! We were not employees, we were not leaders, we were simple believers whom had selflessly served twi exclusively for decades with no recompense. As long as he acted on behalf of God and in the best interest of the people placed in his care than he would have been worthey of our respect and loyalty......but he never WAS that. He was a seriously unstable individual who went ballistic when he didn`t recieve the unquestioning obedience he viewed was his due..........and LIKE an over emotional two year old, he threw a temper tantrum. In any other scenario he would have been viewed as a highly dangerous mentally ill individual, but because he was considered a mog....few realised this. He was a man who thought NOTHING of vindictively destroying a person when thwarted. I am talking when refused sexually, when confronted on his adultery, when not obeyed implicitly. He treated people visciously making harsh judgements that he had never even met.....just based on wild assumptions....it was a lot easier to dismiss em from the ministry and declare them worthless than to ever make an inquery and find out if there had been a mistake He was a world class bully throwing hos weight around, and when he declared a containeding contest, the fool lost.

As I understand it (from a thread I read a couple of years ago)....Gunnison wasn`t even owned by twi on paper... .....it was listed as owned by three members of the bot....PERSONALLY... seems to me I read that Craig was one of the owners. Does anybody else remember?....I don`t know how to find out who the current owners are....

Picture what each little piece of trash....each can ....each bottle would do in the approaching 120 mph wind that would have picked up her trash and distributed throughout the city ...as I don`t think there is garbage pick up during hurricanes. Bell showed great presence of mind and much effort to protect her windows with wooden boards...but then had a brain fart and placed a hundred potentially destructive projectiles out right in front of her house simply out of habit for the garbage men who wouldn`t be there in the morning anyway because of the aproaching storm........lol Funny Bell....you must have been tired gal. How are you and the pup today? How did your home weather the storm?

Shell....bell put the garbage out BEFORE a hurricane was due to hit....the wood she just placed on her windows was to protect them from flying projectiles....which is EXACTLY what her garbage would have become.....lol Bell you are funny.....but that is small potatoes compared to a major league dork such as myself....there are so many stories ...so little time to share....a few that come to mind though... When attemptiong to leave on vacation....van all ready packed....children loaded.... 2 german shepherds AND my mother....I notice on my way to the vehicle a hay fork left lying on the ground.....thinking wisely to myself....I`d better move that before someone falls on it and gets hurt.....while bending down to pick up the fork, I stumbled, and scewered my foot ..... stead of vacation we spent the next four hours at the dr.s office ...lol While attempting to tighten the girth on a saddle once...I placed the steal wrapped stirrup over the saddle horn...leaned in gave a mighty jerk on the saddle....only to have the stirrup pop loose...fly around and smash me in the back of my head....cracking my silly skull....course I was a few miles from home...alone in a remote area....you cannot sit n cry....you have to suck it up crawl on your horse n make your way home as best as possible.... We dion`t EVEN want to talk about the time I attempted to teach my 5 yr old how to drive a 4 wheeler.....it ended up being very painfull for me......