rascal

Twi was works based .... they used an even greater fear than loss of salvation for non compliance with their dogma....the fear of loss of God`s favor and protection, the threat of posession, and death when one didn`t do the *works* required to remain in good standing. Twi required more *works* for access to God and his blessings than any church I have ever attended.

No hypocracy whatso ever...*I* said to look at the fruit of the spirit manifested in order to chose who is spiritually healthy to associate with....that is what scripture recomends in order to steer us clear of trouble. The actions of twi leaders brand it as a spiritually unhealthy....SURE you may enjoy fellowshipping with darkness....but that doesn`t mean that it is necessarily good for one spiritually .

It takes as long as it takes....it cannot be rushed...it will probably never be shelved....things are never simply *ok* again...that is why this sort of thing is so heinous. What will happen with the help of a good psychiatrist is that one will learn to deal with the consequences and pain so that you can move on. The best thing a friend can do is listen and support. That is what you are qualified for.... you cannot fix a wound this deep....that is for a professional to help a person find the strength within themselves to address. For a person to *shelve* something like this onl means that it will only fester and grow...eventually to surface in a much more damaging dangerous way years dowbn the road. Her attornies and psychiatrists will help her deal with this....what she needs from her friends is support and love...and yes that includes listening to the unpleasant details, the endless self condemnation and the out pouring of pain and betrayal...and though not easy....that is the role of a friend.

I know some really sharp people that attend the catholic church here......I also know a great mormon lady and many methodists and baptists as well....they are loving, spiritually sharp people that I see the fruit manifested in each of their lives that identify them as being *of the spirit*......it seems to me....that God is able to work within whatever framework in which we allow him access....The trick is to pick a forum which you personally enjoy. On the other hand concerning twi Oldies, I`d have to say that there is a major difference between them and most churches....for instance, I have to say that in the 15 years that I have been out.....I have YET to see any one of my my teen aged daughters required to sexually service a minister in any of the churches that we have associated with in our years since leaving twi, as so many of our sisters were required to do when involved.......nor have I been required to abort a single one of my pregnancies in service to God as a requirement of continued good standing with any of the organizations that I have chosen to fellowship with since leaving..... I personally have not nor have I seen a single person have to endure a spiritual leader screaming in my face berzerk in vein popping spittle flying rage and justifying their vile behavior as *rightious anger*....like when I was in twi I have not seen a single pastor in all of these years scream obscenities from the pulpit, villify fellow members, dividing families, or ostracising a single member. According to the scriptures in galations.... the actions of the twi ministry leaders clearly lable TWI as a spiritually unhealthy place to be....

Actually Allan, not to be pedantic BUT....homosexuality DOES exist and flourish in the animal kingdom....lol You must not have had very many pets or been around farm animals very much.... Bulls `l mount each other nearly constantly throughout adolecence, heck, they aren`t even particular about crossing the species barrier.....as I had one that mounted my mares....I have a male rat terrier that mounts the male shepherds tailes (it is all he can reach) whenever the female rat terrier goes into heat (sadly my sons dreams of making money selling puppies looks like it is doomed to failure sigh) .......ok ok animal behavioral lecture is finished for today :) .....but you must consider that using a flawed analogy to try to make a point does not lend very much credibility to your pov.

Weeell now .......... that would be a place to START anyways.... :P

I had very little contact with my family during my twi years....I mean after all, they were rank unbelievers...spiritual empties ... Don`tcha know? I missed weddings and funerals, births, family vacation for almost 15 years of making memories and growing together.... It has taken several years to catch up and become reconnected.......... I LOVE being close to home now.... spending holidays together...our children growing up close.... Lunch with my mother or sisters.....fishing trips with my brother....family vacations at the lake.... We talk on the phone, bail each other out of messes, laugh together. cry together.... I am so glad to be with my family.... I do not think that I would recognize or apreciate the value of these things had I not gone so many years without them. One thing I know...they will never abandon me like the psuedo family and friends that abandoned us when we were no longer involved in twi.

Jet, as far as what ELSE horses are used for.......my vet told me once that the stinking corpses of the all of the horses, goats, cows, dogs etc that have died due to a variety of reasons....disease trauma...etc .....that the rendering plants pick up weekly from his office and the others in town.... plus all of the road kill...and all l of the dead cattle from farms......are processed together at the plant....with no consideration given to cause of death or advanced decay.... Ya wanna know who are the BIGGEST customers of the products produced by our rendering plant??? Seriously it is the cosmetic companies! :o In addition to the diseased bloated maggot infested stinking carcasses, you have to consider that if they came from the vets office, they are filled with medicines administered to try to help them before they died. Funny....but I haven`t been able to use lip gloss or make up since :(

I don`t know about the taste....but there is sure a difference in the critters. The cows that we have raised and slaughtered have truly been mindless stupid eating machines....you can`t teach em any respect or manners....if you have food ...you had just better drop it and run....otherwise you get trampled. Horses on the other hand can be quite the companion....from birth, I have found them to be extremely sensitive and intellegent..... The things that my horses will do to suit their silly owners...is simply unbelievable. There is a spark of intellegence there that is simply lacking in cows..... It would be like eating a puppy .... sure we CAN....both are acceptible in other parts of the world....but there are much better uses for creatures that adore us and do everything within their power to assist us. I say .... lets eat the STUPID animals....lol Chickens, cows, turkeys...all seem tailor made for consumption....imo

Welcome Ricky, great first post! You pose a very interesting question about changing our thinking concerning twi. I guess I would have to see how much of the poison of the older generation rubbed off on the younger generation. I would wonder if the younger generation escape unscathed from the legalism, the arrogance, the cruelty with which their parents and the people who left were treated? Having been involved in twi all of their lives...will they have a healthy understanding of true spirituality of christianity? Would apologies and forgiveness be offered? Would invitations to return with no strings attatched be extended? How about an attempt at making amends? These are steps that a true christian brother or sister would attempt. This would be a big step in changing my view of what twi is. If the youth intend to just follow the same path of arrogance and hard hearted treatment of the prior generation...I`d have to say that there would be little difference ...just a shiney new wrapper covering the same old smelly turd. I guess it will depend entirely upon the youth of twi themselves. As far as you yourself staying...your parents saved you a great deal of suffering by getting you out of that environment. Being young, you were probably shielded by your parents from a great deal ....trust me when I say many of us fought with every ounce of our being, spent decades trying to make twi a better place....tens of thousands of us with millions of hours of prayers, of selfless physical service, millions in money, every week we ran classes, fellowships completely sold out doulos`s for Christ...Dog soldiers staked to the ground...unmovable........... We spent our youth, from our teens and twenties with motives as pure as those of todays youth....with hearts full of earnest excitement and determination.....I do not know how a few hundred could alter the course that the leaders of twi have charted....any better I hate to see yet another generation hood winked into decades of service in earnest belief that they can effect change....only to be cast aside when their usefullness is exhausted or their personal integrity doesn`t allow them to participate in what is harmfull.

Oldies, the difference between our view points is that you still believe the illusion that was utilized to seduce us into serving darkness....while believing that we served a noble purpose. God cannot have been the author of something that caused so much pain, which resulted in such destruction, even death.... God`s name was used, scri[ture was used, we were used....but darkness was served. You still buy the counterfit, and for that I am sorry.

Yeah, twi didn`t owe us squat..... We put our lives on hold, our relationships on the back burners, abandoned educations and careers, saved up enough money to get ourselves where twi wanted us....... lived on 20 hrs work a week so that we could promote twi and it`s classes full time for one year of our lives...... What idiots...and SOME of us were stupeed enough to do it twice <_<

oh YEAH....I forgot that we were only valuable to twi as long as we were producing......problems requiring medical care??? Sorry.... We don`t need anyone not able to turn a profit for us.....go on back to your unbeliever families since your believing wasn`t good enough to keep you healthy.... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Guess ya used too many big words jkbohme :P

Yeah with all of the tens of MILLIONS of dollars twi had in the bank at any given time......it was much to expensive to provide medical insurance or support of the wows who were out prosylitizing for them....why they wouldn`t have had money for buses or planes or hangars or harleys ...duh! I don`t believe for a miniute vp or lcm or the other braniacs who came up with the guidelines of wow EVER had to live under such rediculous constraints.... Good lord what miserly picars....got us out doing their outreach marketing and growth for their ministry and they cannot help us with occasional groceries or medical help.....

I am in agreement with lilbit... It was when I tossed out ALL of the techniques and operation of keys etc that i actually was able to reconnect with God again. It is so much easier to be in tune spiritually if you aren`t trying to force everything via keys, principles techniques etc..... It`s like letting God out of the box that we manufactured and he is free to act, bless and teach ...unhampered by our preconcieved notions and required method.

I am glad that somebody has the guts and determination to hold twi legally responsible for what they have done. Wordwolf....I too am struck with the callous indifference shown in that story. Starting right from the beginneing where a person...somebody who wanted to serve God bad enough and was selfless enough to work their tails off to get into the corpes to begin with....the poor guy has a SERIOUS problem...it could have been caused by any number of physical factors...possibly even the stress and poor nutrition that the guy subsisted on there....and yet lcm refers to this poor suffering soul as *gone gooney bird* how immature...how calloused is THAT? the great and loving vp doesn`t care enough about him to even see that he gets home safely....just puts a man who has had a break with reality on a bus outta there....that happened to one of our posters here as well when she was on her way out to the wow field....they were told to stick her on a bus home....she was completely unable to function and got off in the wrong town..... What about them sending the poor gal who was injured in lead away because she couldn`t recover from her head injury.....seems like they kept her around for about a year....would that per chance be the length of time before the statute of limitations was passed when she could file a lawsuit? <_< NOW.......compare that with the way vpw`s good buddy howard was treated when HE lost his mind.....vp drove him home........the entire ministry participating in 24 hour prayer vigils..natural health experts....the best hospitals and treatment money could buy.....NOTHING was stinted in helping him make a comeback at all odds........the ministry no doubt paid the tab as well.............. Amazing innit? That vp`s pals rated so much better consideration and heroic measures to restore their health and sanity....the REST of us however weren`t worth squat....if we couldn`t produce....there was always another warm body to take our places....let our families whom we had been told to abandon as they were only natural man....pick up the broken pieces... That is a hell of a far cry from the shepherd who left the 99 to find the one lost sheep. I do not believe that there was anything even remotely Godly or spiritual about these men who could treat people with such calloused disregard.

Oh ...I`ll agree that the program was a success ....for the PREDATORS!!..... folks went out and shared what God did for them....and then twi was quick to garner the credit....using what GOD did as the bait for the snare..... They had nadda ....it is why they needed us and our pure hearts to seduce the people into the darkness. Had they tried to win folks on the bot`s own merrits....honestly discussed their agenda, their expectations, what they would require of a faithfull desciple.... folks wouldda run.... Thats why the wolves HAVE to disguise themselves by wearing sheeps clothing....otherwise the sheep are wary and flee to the shepherd. Disguised as sheep...the wolves are able to get near enough to the flock to catch and devour the unwary...those of us who couldn`t see past the false fleece that hid the predators. They dined well on the innocent.

I ummm THINK that your comma might have been misplaced....here let me help you.... I am so so thankfull that I don`t think, like you :P Sorry I am just goofin

Great schpiel! What cunning camoflage for the snare......an ingenious recruitment tool to lure further unsuspecting innocents in to the trap....to be devoured by the predators. We were like the decoys that the hunter sets out in the water to lure the unsuspecting ducks into firing range of their weapons....the hunter then crouches behind the bushes unseen with guns drawn......they know that if they were to wait out in the open, the prey would see them and flee to safety.....as it was....all the victims saw was a wholesom happy group enjoying the water...joyously beckoning them to join us in all of the fun .... The predators managed to convince US to bring the prey that would have otherwise fled .... within grasp :( Pure genious........ or evil :unsure:

Yeah Cowgirl it was all YOUR fault don`tcha know?.....further more....as oldiesman has pointed out numerous times......according to twi doctrine......EVERYBODY who was beaten OR lost their lives ...OR were raped OR unfortunate enough to be murdered...while following leaderships *suggestions* it was entirely their fault as well....the little children who were molested by their tc`s gosh darn it, I guess they missed the revelation as well. Shoot ... personally, I believe that we all missed the very biggest revelation from God of all I am afraid.....and that was..* to Stay the he ll away from twi and the false doctrines being used to enslave* in the FIRST place.... How very foolish we were.....

Boy some of my post got left out.....and since I can`t seem to edit it.....I will try to clarify..... AFTER speaking of the enraged lc`s *loving reproof* ...I was speaking of John Townsend starting with *judging from the tone of his voice*

Damned right Samurai ... those poor people mysteriously just dropped off the radar. Most never learned of their friends fate. It could have been any one of us who whole heartedly trusted our lives to these people in the hopes of the spiritual growth and understanding, the prosperity promised if we would but carefully follow their instructions :( Our trust was betrayed...it cost some more than others.

Great post and insight lilbit.... I rest of the group was as pure of motive as we were...only to then be deeply harmed when removed from our protective care.... I agree any GOOD recieved on the wow field or during participation in twi programs was because of God`s goodness in SPITE of the organization and doctrine practiced :(

Well I suppose then that TWI leaders should have then stated ...* SOME of you wonderfull volunteers will be placed by revelation from God into families and areas that will make it the single greatest year of spiritual growth of their lives.... The REST of you however are sh-t outta luck and will not have such an enjoyable experience......... I know..I KNOW...they should have placed a disclaimer on our envelopes ... *the leader in charge of your placement...may or may NOT have been walking with God at the time of this decision....wow experiences may vary to the direct degree that your personal leaders decide to walk in the spirit.... There is a 40 % Probability of emotional trauma, 23 % chance of you actual will be caused physical harm, 20 % of you will suffer food privation .... 16 % of you will be physically assaulted .... some 7 % will be endure violent rape...while a few unfortuante 3% of you will be faced with an untimely death while involved in this program * ......this would have been a more honest aproach....no? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I am not asked biblically NOR does God request or require me to cut any slack or excuse people who steal kill and destroy from the flock in GOD`S name....Jesus didn`t cut any slack to the pharacees or money changers either. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I really hate the way that this new board lumps all of my seperate posts into one .... it really confuses things when seperate posts and thoughts are jumbled together<_<

*Intent* means SQUAT when your negligence results in the harm of an unsuspecting individual Oldies........it wasn`t the INTENT of our county officials that those two children lose their lives either ...However.... the courts have found that LEGALLY if not morally they were still liable ...and we ...the citizens of the county will be paying the price for our leaders lack of forsight or willingness to expend the effort and finances required to ensure the safety of that which was under their stewardship..... Oh, n btw, pretty damned cold to place a laughing smiley after mentioning that folkes got hurt, raped, and murderd....