rascal

Awww Thanks you guys :) Excathedra, it is so neat to meet these beacons of kindness like you are talking about....they don`t want or require anything of us....they seem to just want to genuinely help wherever they can....it kills me that we were taught to so distain them so...to not see their value.... Thanks Psalmie...they truly played a major role in my recovery from harshness.... Dave that was pretty funny, I didn`t catch that when I wrote it...lol I DO understand what you are talking about....when I started attending this little country church years ago, it was with the arrogant attitude that *I* was blessing THEM with my oh so superior spiritual self.... I was so condescending, so stiff, so dissaproving, maaaan, I look back now and think how much these people loved us...the longsuffering and patience exhibited time and time again as we stumbled towards recovery. It took a long time to recognise that just maybe....we were the ones being ministered to....lol I may have doctrinal issues, ie I don`t know what specifically I hold as truth any more.......but one thing I DO feel strongly is that God blessed us with incredible people in our lives to help us on our journey towards spiritual and mental wholeness after leaving twi.

Well...we never KNEW that his eye removal was due to occular melanoma did we? We were told that bless his heart....he had burned his eye out from the filming pfal.....we were told that he later had it removed because it pained him so and was a distraction....melanoma was NEVER mentioned. I do remember him shouting at us one night during a teaching ..... How hehad loved God and us so much ...blah de blah that .... * I gave my EYE ..... what are YOU willing to give*???????? Complete denial about why his eye was removed...that happened years before his death...he had a real chance to reevaluate his belief and stance on cancer and save a lot of people a lot of pain and shame who were lambasted for their shortcomings when they fell victim to this disease. Here these poor folks not only had to deal with sickness and emminent death...they had to deal with the shame of having failed in their believing ..... the shame of succumbing to a devil spirit....some were even abandoned by their friends and family members who couldn`t be with someone who was posessed.... So much pain caused by covering this up....folks could at least comforted themselves in their final days knowing that even vp had succumbed and that there was no shame.

It was in deed for real....I was told those things chef. Nuts eh??

JL, He is just using you AND this tragic situationin in an attempt to make an completely unrelated point for an entirely different thread....thus the *rehtorical* questions.... A new low for even him.

Sorry if I over reacted, lifted .... sometimes I feel like I am being bullied.

I am with you out of the fog..... I have a sister that is the funny, pretty, smart, one...she seems to be a driving force in our family dynamics....for YEARS she and my other sister took vacations together, went out together, etc....I tried not to be hurt every time she would call me and say...*Hey Cath...what are you doing friday*? I would be so tickled to finally be invited, I would say...oh nothing....and she`d say * GREAT can you watch my child while Sharon (my other sis) n I go to a movie* They lunched together vacationed together went to movies...but I was only asked to baby sit. My mom lived in town and a lot of times I was the only one not invited to activities between the three of them We all had german shepherd puppies from the same litter....every year on the dogs birthday the sisters and mom would plan an outing to the river to celebrate...never inviting me or my pup. When one sis got married...I was asked not to come up because with my family ..it would be too many people.... The final straw came when I found out that my sisters decided to take a plane to fla to visit our Dad with their kids...go to disney etc. I found out that they not only didn`t invite me to go along...instead...they took our mutual friend and even GAVE her the plane ticket :( I almost severed relations at that point...I was so crushed....but I decided to say nothing....firmly resolving to develope myself into a person that they would WANT to have along...I mean there has to be some reason why they consistantly don`t want me along right???? (I found out years later it was mostly just one sister after a while the second sister got wise and quit letting her) I finally figured out that there was a price I was going to have to pay for the decade that I had cut myself off from them while I was involved with twi....It was going to take time to reform those bonds that the rest of my family had built over the time I was gone I have done everything within my power to be pleasant and amenable even when the same sister insists on embarassing and shaming me at every gathering over something i did as a child.... What I have found is...I don`t think that the one sister will ever have any use for me....I kid you not ...the ONLY time she calls me on the phone is to see if she can leave her son.....where as the bond with my other sister and brother have strengthened and has become a rich source of joy. I do not think that this would have happened if I had sulked and brooded over the bygone slights and insults. It has taken many years of attempting to be gracious and biting my tongue....but it has been well worth it to me....it also gets easier as time goes by.... The one thing I know is that as MUCH as these people can hurt irritate and annoy me..I know also that they love me and I them ......and would (and have) dropped everything and be at my side at a moments notice....should the need arrise...and HAD I allowed the pain that one sybling caused ostracise me from family activities...I would have missed much joy with my other family members I am now glad that I did not write them off ....the benefits of having a family, warts and all far outweigh the pit falls....and things do change as we spend time together. As far as your question...yeah, it hurts.....but I still do my best to be gracious and amenable, folks usually get tired of being boogers after a while...lol ...

and there in lies the delemna....Was vpw wrong in what he taught about believing and sickness or was he right...in which case ...according to HIS teachings...he succumbed to posession of a devil spirit. It is no damned wonder the ministry hid his illness ....and told the followers that he died of a broken heart....that he turned his face to the wall and willed himself to die....if one single person had asked the right question in the last 24 hours he would have changed his mind and lived....

This is a forum for discussing our twi experiences.....Not a place to try to convince you personally lifted, or anybody else of our veracity.....and I certainly don`t care enough whether or not you believe me to actually use my name..... or be willing to give details and identities that are not mine in order to make my experiences appear to be more acceptable to you. Geeeze, It is hard enough to relate some of this stuff without being hounded to give someone the salacious titilating little details....in order to satisfy their curiosity.... The information is there....whether or not you believe it is your choice...

Guess you hit a nerve jkboehme...Sound logic backed up with legal documentation is an awfully hard combination to deny :P

No oldies, I am just not going to allow you to distract me from Koresches illegal immoral activities which is what we are discussing in this thread. The atrocities committed by the atf officials are another issue entirely, and in no way makes what David Koresch did acceptable.

You try to make a point oldies...that it was no big deal because these young teenaged girls *consented* ....... you know, there were many of us gals who did indeed *consented* to having sex in our early teens....but what most of the guys...the old men who indulged themselves and enjoyed our young bodies did not take into account was that it wasn`t usually a *fun* or *recreational* thing to do for us........for many of us....it was simply an attempt to fill a void ....one that was there for one reason or another...usually not having a parents love or guidance in our lives. So we turn to any source.....we looked to these men who acted like they were concerned for us....like we were of right.....who pretended that they would care for us and protect us ....who offered us the attention our starving souls so craved..... so we would give of ourselves...give the only thing of value that we had..... in order to please the one who was in that position of authority....in order to be accepted and feel protected....throw in the title of minister and tell the starving young woman that it is God`s will or desire.......to then be left crushed and broken when our usefullness was exhausted....or pregnancy or a std made further contact with us inconvenient.... one finds herself alone and ashamed .... you find out that you were nothing more than an object to be used and cast aside when your novelty wore off....you are left devistated and abandoned .......and then you attempt to brokenly put the shattered pieces of your soul back together..... That is why state laws protect young teenagers....adults understand that it is necessary because youngsters are so vulnerable to manipulation. Most professionals, ministers, teachers, psychiatrist apreciate and understand this and why the trust must not be violated. That is why the penalties are do stiff when it is a professional adult who is in a position of authority breaches that trust. The emotional consequences of the betrayal are devastating and far reaching. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oldies, I suppose that because there was no criminal intent according to the bombers religion ... that makes the world trade centers bombing and subsequent murder of thousands of innocent souls not a crime either....your logic is severely flawed....however, I suppose that is a convenient means to justify the crimes of twi as well... according to their religion ...it was acceptable. The Jonestown group forced poisoned koolaid on their kids and then drank themselves , according to their religion, no crime was committed..... That makes the mayans and their baby sacrafice parties upright individuals as well.... Just because ones religion proclaims an action acceptable.....it does not make it a moral, ethical, spiritual, or legally right thing to do.

Then QUIT parroting sicko logic. My daughters, at least one of them anyway , is the age where friends of mine were started to be pressured to have sex with wierwille and martindale.... It was ok according to wierwilles religious beliefs too...it was also ok to destroy these vulnerable youngsters when they wouldn`t be pressured.....there were a lot of sick things that were ok to be practiced in wierwilles religion....that doesn`t make it right spiritually, ethically, morally or legally. It brings it home all over again how perverted these sick old bastards were to force themselves on these innocents.

I think that the *eating the fish n spitting out the bones* is just a euphanism for being unable to come to grips with the enormous doctrinal and practical errors in twi....or the inability to grasp the true nature of the false prophets who decieved us with this doctrine. It can also be an excuse for some who are unable to accept their role in the damage that they inflicted....an inability to admit that they were wrong....and thus are able to remain comfortably cocooned in the false doctrine....making it unnecessary to undergo the hard work required to begin the path of healing.

I only have to look into the trusting faces of my 14 and 17 yr old daughters ...their exhuberance...their charming innocence .... to understand how damnably wrong this betrayal of their trusting souls would be. These sweet teenagers who are so willing to please, who so desperatly want to do the right thing, desperate to be aproved of by their peers and the adults that they respect...that they will do literally almost anything that one whom they respect and trusts deems Godly* or their spiritual *responsibiliy* The betrayal of their earnest willingness to please by those childrens parents and minister is just sickening.

I find that justification of statuatory rape, as well as bigamy, as well as the ultimate betrayal of ones authority .....to be deeply disturbing .....it is no wonder you are unable to acknowledge the true criminality and heinous nature of the betrayal by wierwille and his leaders.....nor comprehend the extent of the damage inflicted on his victims. This puts me in mind of the term *seared conscience*

I went to a funeral monday night . This man, Thurman, bless his heart was once a very successfull business man. He and his wife felt called at one point to go into the ministry. I am not sure when, but the fellow was diagnosed with retinitis pigmentosa (sp?) ....but that didn`t slow them down or halt their dreams of ministering people....they simply continued as a team...finishing school and becoming pastors for the methodist church..... Now rather than lament his disabeling blindness....this fellow cracked some of the funniest jokes I ever heard....one I remember.....was related after arriving at our church after a particularly harrowing trip.....his poor wife who had to drive like a bat out of hades to arrive on time to the three services that she was required to preform on sunday mornings.... ...during one of her harrowing drives.....She lost control of her vehicle..... wildly fish tailing...steering madly back and forth attempting to avoid the deep ditches on either side of this small country lane......after a heart pounding few seconds......she finally regained control of her vehicle....when Thurman asked in a perturbed tone....*well Do you need ME to drive*???? Lol figuring he certainly couldn`t do any WORSE! Well as if blindness wasn`t enough....he began loosing his hearing due to some malady......now mind you...ANYBODY who was already blind ...facing the prospect of complete deafness...(can you imaginr the sensory deprivation??) would have been discouraged.....not him...he and his wife began learning sign language to spell out against his palm....to communicate...even then....and even then....he never lost his humor.... I met this man 14 years ago...sometime around then......he was diagnosed with Lukemia....given 4 months to live....well....he outlasted their predictions by 13 years and 9 months...and it wasn`t even the lukemia that he finally succumbed to..... Sometime during the last few years this sweet man who was always funny....who dearly loved people ...never missed a chance to brighten your day with a funny story or an apt sharing from the scriptures....was diagnosed with diabetes as well.....I remember thinking...*Gosh I have never seen a human being so afflicted* and of course in my way brained thinking assumed that it was something that he was doing wrong.... So here is this guy...managing to crack jokes every time we met him....always had an uplifteing message of a loving tender God *who`s grace was sufficient* for him. The man ministered to every one he met...I NEVER heard a cross word, a complaint, or whining, or utterance of condemnation....even with us....no matter how pig headed and arrogant mark and I were during our post way years....he never was offended at our hard heartedness...or our arrogance in what we believed was our superior knowledge of the scriptures... he loved us in spite of our bewildering beliefs and condescending attitudes.... In spite of our oh so knowledgeble rightious selves......He gently and lovingly taught, lifted us up with brilliant humor....ministered to us with kindness...the peace and joy that the man emmanated in spite of the most daunting of circumstances...was a marvel...most of the time it never registered with me that he was ill...suffering on many fronts....the only clue you`d get was that he would dissapear for a few weeks at a time....and you would wonder if finally he had succumbed....but low n behold he would return to us...as up beat as ever with new funny stories to tell. I sat there in that church...not grieving but laughing all the way through the service as rememberances of this man were shared..... Someone shared how he was ashamed of his beat up old cane.....and though he couldn`t see it...he could feel the chipped paint .....so one day...he and his wife went to buy a new one at the local drug store...which was right next to the dr.s office.....well after recieving his new cane....you know the white kind with the red tip that shows people you are blind......he handed his old one to his wife.....n when she asked well what do you want to do with THIS????? HE whispered......... *Ham it up Baby* !!!! So she started pretending to be blind too!....they both clacked their canes back and forth out of the store....out the door.....down the side walk ....they felt their way around the car.....she helped him into the car....clacked her way around to the drivers side....and got in....much to the mounting horror of all of the people whose faces were plastered against the drug store window and dr.s office waiting room....she started the car and drove away.....lmao.... she later recieved a phone call from the dr.s office to PLEASE never do that again as it freaked out so many of their waiting patients....lol So any way.... as we laughed ...each remembering private incidences when he shared a word fitly spoken ministering to us...presenting a loving gentle God *who`s grace was sufficient* I couldn`t help but having flash backs to my twi days.... The interactions with my leaders in the ministry........the unkindness with which they treated us at times....the intense pressure applied to preform....the arrogance that many of them exhuded....we recieved the message again and again that we were not worthey for God to even spit in our direction....unless we were preforming in the prescribed manner....were in the right program or had new people in class... It struck me with blinding impact.... I turned and whispered softly to my husband... that Thurman had been .....the REAL deal.... a man who manifested on a daily basis through the most difficult of circumstances.....the pure heart of love, tolerance and patience that God has for each and every one of us. Ever willing to love us wherever we are at ..... extending a never failing light that will lead us out of any darkness back to his love and light. It dawned on me that THIS was the real deal....and that so many of us (me included) tend to just be wanna bees... I was struck with gratitude to have had the privelege of getting a glimpse of God`s abounding love, his care that he has for each of us ..... through the humble life of this unassuming man. So I made my way to the casket at the front of the church to give condolences to the widow ....though she only saw the kids and I sporadically over the years.....she joyously hugged my neck and murmered in my ear ....* don`t you worry Cathy ... because that is just the husk laying there in that box....the NUT that was inside has gone home* Thank you God for Linda and Thurman who was able to indeed impart that *his grace IS sufficient* for me

No proof of Koresche being a dangerous cult???? Have you actually read what his practices were Oldies? The one that sticks out in my mind was where the daughters of the followers were interviewed.... daughters of his followers were required to become Koresches *brides* around the age of 14 and start bearing children for him. One show .... the follower was saying that he believed or portrayed himself as Jesus at the second coming. He had over twenty children from different *brides* It was considered quite the honor to be producing these children for his most highest.....ALL this practice of course backed up with intensive scriptural research. Just your harmless garden variety church no doubt.....

Great point Kit....these guys have had decades of experiences, building working out their dynamics, while we were busy elsewhere at meetings in the corpes on the wow field...... Many of them no doubt felt we were giving them the proverbial finger when we missed out on their important occasions and gatherings because of our committment. I have found that it has taken a lot of time to reinsert myself into my families lives....ad even now after 15 years it can be challenging. But at least I am being invited. The *reatatching* the severed limb is a great annalogy.

I know I know! Scriptures tell us precisely how to know what is on/in another mans mind :) Too darn bad that we didn`t learn to identify a man of the flesh BEFORE we fell victim to their ploys.

I will agree with you Oldies, we certainly saw a lot of paganism repackaged and disguised as christian in twi.

Psalmie, I love you girl....but can I speak from my experience...maybe put a little perspective from the other side? After a decade of having my feelings hurt by inconsideration and down right rudeness of some of my family members.....sulking because my sisters never invited me to this or that....deliberatly left out of several group vacations....a wedding.....I have had to learn that IF I want to be a welcome part of family gatherings.....that I have to graciously accept as much or as little as my family members are willing to give....and to stop being offended and hurt over what they cannot or will not give. They are what they are and you just love em, (or not) because like Johnny said....they might not be here tomorrow. And though they frustrate the hell out of me.....can be viscious and down right cruel on occasion....I have absolutely NO doubt that each one would drop what they were doing in a heart beat at my side should the need arrise...... As far as your family, in this instance anyway, it does not sound like they are being deliberatly rude to me...... If they are uncomfortable with your home church (though I know that you are very proud of it) or would prefer to party and hang out together visiting with each other during their short time together at the motel....I don`t see a problem with that.....if they chose a hotel so as not to interfere with your fellowship plans.....or because it is better situated to handle large groups of people visiting.....I don`t see that as a problem either....or necessarily as something to take personally. When I go to Orlando to visit my family....I want to see and spend time with them and visit....not go to their church or club or even a movie.....I let those that want to go do that....and I find a different family member to hang with...... Last year I only had two days....and my fathers new wife desperatly wanted me to go visit her daughter at the health spa that she worked at.....they were both very proud of her ....I knew that I would offend if I declined.....so thinking that it would only take an hour......I agreed reluctantly to accompany her. I ended up spending almost an entire damned day there with these two and their friends....while the step mom got a wax and hair cut and die job...etc ad nausium...I was FURIOUS that so many hours of my precious time that I had wanted to spend with my father and brother and sisters, their children had been squandered.....I finally had to put my foot down as they decided that they wanted to lunch/early dinner together....but needed to stop at her place first...these two would have consumed my entire day had I let them....yet it was things that they wanted to do....therefor I should want to as well/ My point is....though these things that we were doing were important to them...I had ZERO interest in spending time at a spa when my family was all having fun visiting and preparing for christmas...... I learned to speak up and say what I would rather do...FINALLY..... Sometimes folks would just rather hang out....so I wouldn`t take it personally that they didn`t want to be at somebody elses church/fellowship/health spa....does this make any sense? I guess that I would enjoy my fellowship if that was what I wanted to do ....or cancel for the week and go to the hotel and hang out with the family if that was what you wanted to do.... I don`t think that resenting your family for not wanting to attend fellowship or follow your game plan is going to be condusive to building family bonds....it is like when step mom wanted me to go to the spa...it was important to her....and she would have been deeply hurt had I declined.....but in going to what she deemed important....i lost precious time that I would have much rather spent enjoying my family members that are scattered all over the country that I don`t get to see for years at a time..... I was put in a very difficult position......the pressure of the delema...do I do what will keep someones feelings from being hurt ...offend my fathers wife.........or what I drove 7 children 1000 miles to enjoy? Could your family feel this way..... Your family is there to see you and spend time together....I do not think making them uncomfortable with confrontation because they have no interest in attending fellowship is going to inspire them to want to include you in future events. They are doing what they prefer doing....as should you.... Getting together with family...especially a big one....requires flexibility and willingness to fit in where/ how one can....to require family to behave in a manner in which we deem acceptable will only frustrate us and drive them away..... You either learn to enjoy them or distance yourself ...they are what they are....you deem whether they are worthy of your time or attention....but it would be frustrating as well as fruitless to try to change them into what you want/require them to be..... I love you, I understand your anger and indignation, but if you desire to be a participant in family activities....this is the price that you will pay. Anyway, just my opinion and a little different perspective....just take it with a grain of salt Cathy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Darn it Psalime, I wrote that long epistle before seeing what dear Bell just posted....had I seen it first....rather than the convoluted mish mash that I struggled over..... I would have said *oh YEAH...what SHE said* !!!

JKB, you said a lot of very insightfull things in your last post, but THIS in particular I think, needs to be matted, framed and hung on the wall around here. TWI is parasitic of the genuine love & pure-heartedness of the people it deceives into joining its ranks.

I agree, this woman is very lucky to have you for a friend. Sometimes being a friend in this type of situation is really tough.... In years to come this woman no doubt will see the hand of God in the comfort and support that she recieved from friends like you.

(((Penguin)))) just give yourself time friend.....you will be going through a whole range of emotions during your recovery process....all of the emotions that we supressed because they were considered 5 senses junk. Those emotions are part of how God designed us....they are necessary to balance out the harshness of cold cruel logic that was touted as being *best* in twi. You will experience the anger, the frustration, the sorrow....you will exhult in silliness, exuberant happiness...as you relearn to feel. Due to the pressure in twi.....I had forgotten what it was to feel peace, to have confidence, a calm hope....I was around people this weekend that exuded these qualities and I remembered a time when I was that way.........I want to be that person again.

Wooohoo! What a TEAM!! Congratulations to you and your awsomly cool little friend!!