rascal

Society has enough problems without attempting to alienate more kids from their parents. These guys are attempting to destroy the trust or respect their folks judgement with these creeps portraying the parents as mindless cruel killing machines when the kiddoes are young and impressionable. I need to tell you....when I pulled this thread up to post ....my 8 yr old daughter was looking over my shoulder (I hadn`t noticed her walking up) ...but she found the pictures deeply disturbing.....and she only got a momentary glimpse.... * Oh Mommy why is that lady hurting the poor bunny?* ....and I heard her telling her sister later about the poor fish....imagine if she had gotten the chance to peruse the entire contents ....her parents (both of whom fish and have been known to process deer and chickens) portrayed as viscious monsters.... I am offended at their attempts to poison youngsters against their parents

The ironic thing is..... that *we* the folks that were bullied out..... the people they refuse to let back in, in all likelyhood are the ones who were responsible for the *good* times.....responsible for the good recieved....it was our hot teachings...our great music....our generous service for decades...our financial support that was responsible for the presentation of God and scriptures that aided in your deliverance.... Current twi people are loyal to a group that has mearly assumed the identity, the name and resources of a group of folks that were once a blessing oto them. The folks currently in charge had nothing to do with what was of blessing to them personally in twi.....I garauntee that they are not the ones who loved you, gave you rides, who ministered directly to you....who composed the inspiring music who taught electrifying smack you right between the eyes teachings..... I`ll bet that the people who witnessed to you, the people who loved you, prayed for you, held you while you cried, steadied you when you were weak......have every one been either bullied and forced out. The leaders who inhabit twi are nothing more than the bullies who used and cast aside the people who were so instrumental in your blessing .....threw us out like so much garbage when our usefullness was exhausted..... Do you know why so many of the incredible teachers, artists musicians who`s efforts were such an inspiration to us all can no longer participate??? It is because most came to a point where their personal integrety would no longer allow them to be a cover for the evil being practiced.... That twi is able to convince it`s participants that the current leaders who treated their bretheren with such devistating cruelty, are actually OWED the loyalty for that which we who have been cast out are directly responsible for....is the cruelest irony of all.

Hap, according to the national news I read tonight, it is an ongoing current campaigne and kids in one school system were pretty traumatized by it. The peta folks were unabashed claiming that the kids saw much more disturbing stuff on tv. I wonder how they feel about bears, wolves and other predators. Does the sight of a red tailed hawk soaring overhead bother them knowing that he is looking for rabbits? Are they as offended by the fun loving otter who not only fishes for survival but sport? What about the pike or bass whom they are defending which in turn subsist on the perch minnow? The owl....searching nightly for rabbits and mice? the pretty fox? I guess the planet needs to be rid of ALL predators....oh yeah and as far as the cute chimpanzees? You betcha, they hunt and devour their own cousins as well. NO? I guess only the human carnivors are offensive and need to be persecuted by these nut jobs,

Ron, I read about these in the national news this morning...I agree it is very sick....Glad to hear that at least one community is running them outta town.

Well....all I can say is that judging from the fruit in the lives of folks promoting speaking in tongues as a big ol hairy deal...I gotta wonder how effective or truly important it really is..... The people who committed the most vile acts against christians that I have ever witnessed....people who`s actions brand them as *of the flesh* were the one who insisted that their ability sit is what made them such spiritual hot shots.....l...and that the rest of Christiandom was some how sub par because they didn`t. Yet when you look at the rest of Christianity, that is where you see so many folks manifesting the fruit of the spirit. I do not think our understanding of sit or it`s importance can be considered reliable....given the lives of the men who touted it as how to be spiritual.....it didn`t help them to not be cruel and destructive to the flock.

I cannot fathom ministry people believing that *we* all deserved what happened ...like those who were hurt and cast aside some sort of colateral damage in a spiritual hurricane. That we were being punished..that it was some kind of relief... (((Lizzy))) hon, were you there? Do you know what was done to us in God`s name? Do you know that we were pure in our hearts and efforts to serve God with everything at our disposal....left no stone unturned in order to help halt the destruction? Do you know that we fought with every fiber of our being to save the ministry and were cast out for our concerns because the leaders didn`t want to change (and yes most are still there)? You seem to think that we were seduced into leaving ...that some how darkness was served. Lizzy, I would ask for you to consider something ...please ... if we carry your hurricane analogy to it1s conclusion....N.O> knew three days ahead of time that a cat 5 hurricane was headed for their city....citizens knew that the levies only were good for a cat 3....The residents had 3 days to make a decision....to believe what the radars were showing, to listen to the weathermans forcast.....to heed the leaders asking folks to evacuate....millions heeded the warnings and headed for safety, taking what they could of value with them. Now for whatever reason...some folks chose to remain in the city...they either didn`t believe the evidence on the radar....didn`t trust the information that the weatherman provided....didn`t want to leave their homes and posessions ... wanted to just wanted to BELIEVE that everything would be ok.... Consequently, they get flattened by the hurricane ...lives are lost....N.O. becomes a wasteland with no power or water to sustain it. Now the folks with nothing are attempting to survive floating around on pieces of debris fighting for survival. Would it make ANY sense to blame the people who listened to the warnings and got themselves and families to safety.... for the resultant catastrophy? Could the people who left the city have lessened the impact of the storm one iota by ignoring the evidence and staying...becoming one of the casualties? Are the people who stayed some how more noble than those who left? Is it right for the people who stayed through the storm to resent or blame those who were LED to safety? Consider please that just MAYBE God led any who would heed and follow to safety well in advance of the oncoming hurricane. Now like twi....the storm strikes...and like N.O. becomes a wasteland.... everything is poisoned....no food no shelter no electricity no water....filled with disease and deadly bacteria.... We who left have formed new lives built new homes in other cities life is very very good......but yet you have the few left in the devistation under the impresssion that we would want to come back.... The ground and water are still contaminated by the pollutants released during the storm....and though the city has been pumped dry....it is still filthy...the levies are still only good for a cat 3 storm....nothing has changed to make it a safer place to be. Cionsider please the possibility that those who left the doomed city were led to safety by a loving caring God .... As far as returning..... Do you have an understanding of what is required biblically of one who has *offended* his brother? I have not seen any Godly repentance from those in twi who were so cruel. I have not heard of a single apology issued to the tens of thousands of people who were wrongly M&A `d . I have not see a single offer of restitution made. ALL things required when one has wronged his brother biblically. When I have seen these actions implimented, and see twi beginning to adhere to the standard listed biblically of one who has sinned against their brother... then I might begin to believe that twi is on the path to spiritual wholeness....and consider forgiveness for the brother who has sinned against me.

I have no problem *gathering together*,*speaking of problems* or *helping one another* (it`s called a gs weenie roast :P ), but you have to consider something .....that after being away from twi...most of us cannot figure out why in the world that we would want or need *leadership*... What is it that you think establishing leadership can do for us? What is it you think that an improved corp can provide? Because I`ll tell you, that I think that everything we need is right there inside of each and every one of us.....we don`t need labels or nametags anymore. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So I am curious...... why do you want to fix corps anyway? Do you want it for yourselves ... want to be in that elevated position of authority .... or are you looking to place someone in that position of authority over your own life? Do you want to feel like you are part of some spiritually elite group...special, or are you looking for someone to be a leader....make your choices and decisions? I honestly don`t see the attraction either way...

I guess when an apology has been issued, restitution has been offered, I will believe that there is hope for the group..... Which biblically speaking is their minimal responsibility. What the good hearted folks are now doing in attempting change is no darn different than what tens of thousands of us attempted to do for decades ....in reality, the only thing that is accomplished is that the very same evil people and policies are still being supported by good hearted folks That is how they get their continued support.....people believe that at the core...the ministry WANTS to be good and Godly... I`d like to point out that the people who are in charge currently are STILL the very same people that have been documented in a court of law as being aware and facillitating the most heinous abuse and practices in twi. The only reason that the rampant abuse seen before isn`t so visable these days is because the eyes of the legal community are upon them...just waiting for them to step one single toe out of line ..... They cannot get away with what they once did. The people who are fighting to save the ministry are no different than the tens of thousands of pure hearted souls that were used and cast aside before them.

Thanks for taking the pains to document the process of what happened to us jkboehme ... It helps me to see an educated explanation of how we were manipulated and why we became so dependant. It relieves me of some of the shame I have felt for being so naieve and foolish.

Free Soul.... it sounds like what you are going through is quite normal. Trying different things is great...you don`t HAVE to stick to any one thing...nor to feel bad if after trying something.....that you don`t care to continue.....you just keep dabbling around till something strikes your fancy.... Community theatre is fun.... volunteering at your local animal shelter or hospital are great avenues for meeting people and opening doors for other activities you might enjoy....maybe go back to school....weather spotters...join the reserve unit for your local police or sheriff dept. I am on a mission to continue to improve myself whether it be physically or with an education....I relish challenging myself....overcoming the shakes and getting up on stage....(I`ll have you know I play a MEAN singing monkey/pirate :) it doesn`t matter whatever it is....just so you are learning something fresh and new and challenging....getting out meeting new people and friends. I don`t want to ever feel *stagnant* ever again. As far as your bible...I wouldn`t feel bad about not wanting to read it...I am the same way....every time I open it...I see the verses used to manipulate us....I hear them read with the venomous tone that they used to be presented to us with. God is pretty cool though and continues to educat/love minister to me in a manner that I can accept without getting the heebie jeebies. The greatest thing about being post twi is that you don`t have to ever feel bad again for not fitting into somebody elses mold of who or what we should like. It is an exciting journey....enjoy yourself....we have spent decades being manipulated and mistreated ...years that we can never ever get back....they are gone, wasted irrevocably ...I am firmly resolved to live each remaining day as the exciting adventure of learning and growth that I believe that God intended our lives to be... Cathy......who is trying to learn to live *thy grace is sufficient for me*

Thank you jkboehme....reading this explanation really helps me to be able to understand what has happened to us.....that there is a real process involved in breaking down our defenses..... I have been so ashamed of being fooled......it is good to know that it isn`t just a question of me being stupid......

JL, I am sorry that that happened to you......what a crushing dissapointment..... it wouldn`t have cost that man a darned thing to have acknowledged your accomplishment....and it would have meant so much to you...... don`t EVEN get me started about lack of courtesy and respect..... I wonder what scintillating qualities this guy n his wife posessed in hq`s eyes ....that qualified them for an assignment that placed in this position of authority..... From what I have read here.....they were not a blessing or helpfull in anyway..... they even managed to poison the beautifull colorado wilderness.... Johnny I am GLAD that you went fishing....that you managed to have some fun in SPITE of those anal creeps. Ex 10 that story is REDICULOUS....how pitifull.... you go to this woman for help....and get lambasted for a condition that her camp her responsible for....augh...

WOOHOOO ..... Welcome home!!!!! SO glad that you are safe....

I will be proud to introduce you as my friend, thank you excathedra :)

Welcome true soul..... rediscovery of *true self* has been an exciting journey .... You can look at it as an exhillerating adventure....starting over from scratch....you are not required to supress your thoughts or emotions....who you are ever again. Find what you enjoy...bowling.... skydiving...motorcycle clubs....lol It has been an exciting adventure to reaquaint myself with my estranged family....Becoming an active and apreciated member in my community has been rewarding. I enjoy meeting new people of varying back grounds and interests because I feel they help bring balance to my perspective. Mostly I enjoy the things that were denied me in twi.... *serious* pets ...I am free to pick up and take care of as many strays as I can afford to feed...lol be they equine feline canine human...lol I enjoy studying karate with my kiddoes and even competing..... I enjoy raising and training my equine babies.... Just find what you enjoy ...

That is sad bell.

There could be a good reason that we were taught to have such disrespect for education ... or professionals. Educated folks can more readily spot twi`s manipulative practices a whole lot quicker and can readily document proof to back up their opinions. Oldies appears to be on a campaign attempting to discredit professional documentation describing what occured to us in twi ...... sop

I wasn`t any higher than a tc.... and never deliberatly hurt anyone....but in looking back.... I still know that I still wasn`t quite *right* I remember times when I could have been kind....and just shrugged off anothers pain....thinking that it was *their problem* I remember not standing up for a poor teenager who was being screamed at for something silly by the guy who had just married his mom...I remember the shame and mortification in the childs face....I knew what the bully was doing was dead wrong....I tried to comfort the boy ...but did I confront the foot hole that was bellowing at him...relishing his new role as head of household...his license to be a sadistic bully? I remember one of my roomates didn`t have a car....she walked several miles to and from work every day uncomplaining of the rain, sleet, snow...sometimes she had to walk to another location that was over ten miles....how many times did I offer her a ride? Not nearly damned enough...n I though as tc that *I* was the spiritual one..... We thought that we were spiritual because we knew scriptures.......because we were put in positions of responsibility and authority...I think that there must be more to genuine spirituality than simply knowledge......and that untill we can see beyond this...it is difficult to make the necessary changes to achieve that which we desire to be.

Sorry ((chef)) I wonder at people who could continue on with life blythly unaware of the damage that they inflicted .... or who are able to conveniently dismiss folks pain when becoming aware of their responsibility.... Dunno if they were unpleasant before their involvement...or association with twi developed them into monsters.

What I am groping around and attempting to point out is that simply presenting the scriptures to people does not make someone necessarily a christian much less a leader of Christians. The brutal treatment with which we were *ministered* to.....is simply NOT how a genuine christian...one of the *spirit* behaves. There were certain behaviors given as guidelines in the scriptures for us to recognise one another .... these aren`t things that you *fake* or try to be ...it is just there...the best I can describe it ...after encountering genuine christians is that it is an *inside* deal... By the same token, there was a standard set for those who were to be considered leaders..... I think that we misinterpreted a *knowledge of the scriptures* to mean the same thing as being christian. and so I wonder if many of us are doomed to continue life in anger and frustration....assuming that because we have a knowledge of the bible...that we understand it..... It isn`t untill you become familiar with the genuine....that you can recognise the difference. I am not saying that I am necessarily even there myself.....but in meeting and interacting with some folks these last few years that I can now recognise as the *real* deal.... I now remember who/what I want to be.

Guys...can you imagine what it will be liked to be reunited with our beloved pets someday? To be able to thank these valiant souls for their unconditional love.....the lessons that they imparted....the difficult times made bearable because of their never faltering support .... I have tears just thinking about joyously being able to wrap my arms around their necks.....I long for the chance to humbly ask for forgiveness for the neglect when my so called *responsibilities* took precedence over their comfort and well being ...or my ignorance led to their suffering. I agree Bell, there had darned well better be animals in heaven...there will be tears shed....n I just don`t think I want to go.

HCW, I think you just illustrated the difference between the genuine and counterfit. You tell ME who should be demonstrating genuine loving care and concern? Suprising that a supposed spiritual leader would exhibit such little regard for one in their care. Actually from what I read of tj here, he gives every evidence of not only being a counterfit leader but a christian wannabe as well... I do not believe that a genuine brother in Christ would ever have been able to treat you with such calloused indifference.... it is an inside *thing* ... just my opinion..

I am struck again after the thread about tj in Gunnison....these people who were so arrogant and calloused in their treatment of their fellow christians...and rather than derail that thread...will post my thoughts on a new one...... These people... believing that they were christian leaders were so incredibly calloused and cruel........the animosity they bore us....innocent people who naievely wanted to be their best and to serve God......the treatment recieved at their hands was reprehensible.... Even our most outspoken antagonists and enemies would never have dreamed of treating us with the depths of disrespect and unkindness.....these supposed leaders of God in whom we placed our trust. After meeting a few ministers out here....(I have a thread in the open forums speaking of one called *the REAL deal* that describes a couple of them) ...... after experienceing the compassion, the support, the kindness, the gentle exhortation....of a genuine loving minister....I am astonished at what we thought of in twi as Godly. The behaviors that we obediantly accepted as necessary for our well being. A genuine minister/leader/representative of God would ... Never dream of humiliating a person either in private or public... Never attempt to destroy a persons credibility or character... Never ostracise a person from the body of believers or deny them access to fellowship or teachings Never withold prayer.... Never indulge in a temper tantrum and vent their frustration on those to whom they are to minister.... Never gratify themselves sexually with a trusting member of their flock... Never extort money and services in God`s name... For indeed, the day one BEGINS these practices...they cease being a minister/ a leader....they no longer are acting on God`s behalf ... sharing his concern, demonstrating his gentle love, nurturing their flock ..... their OWN feelings and desires have become what they are ministering to people. That is why being a minister/leader is such an awsome responsibility......you are to represent God`s will, his love his Kindness...you are there to guide people in their quest to know and understand God better. The counterfit or wannabe puts their desires ...their frustrations first. I think back on our leaders in twi...some of them truly were genuine in their love and selfless service...but think about how vp treated people how lcm treated people, think about the cruelty we read about tj in Gunnison....the face meltings from lc`s endured....the things that these guys said God required of faithfull douloses? These guys were not demonstrating God`d love or patience.....few even exhibited the fruit which would be indicative of being *of the spirit* I have to wonder if these folks EVEN with their knowledge of the scriptures.....with all of their rage, their exhibited cruetly, their insufferable arrogance, complete disregard for folks well being .... were ever really genuine christians to begin with....much less qualified to be ministers of a caring God. Yet here we are the same folks....proclaiming ourselves as leaders and teachers....some kind of superior believer.... but I do wonder .... even though intentions are probably good....how many of us are still just wannabees...not aware of what it truly means to *minister* in the name of God.... P.S> Have you ever thought that in eliminating the term *minister* from our vocabularies in twi and replacing it with *teacher* or *leader* ....replacing the term flock with the body of christ.. how much it absolves us of our responsibilities to each other? How it absolves one from their responsibility and frees to indulge in harmfull behavior? A genuine leader/minister/teacher`s function is to represent God .....in SPITE of how they may personally feel at any one particular moment.

jkboehme... you are putting into words ....what I have been struggling to say for years.... In twi, I always felt like I was being forced into a mold that I didn`t fit in....from the time I was 17 yrs old...I wasn`t allowed to be me....to like the things I wanted to like...the things I wanted to do were unacceptable..education...volunteer work.......books I liked....the friends I was allowed ....family involvement ...all were deemed unspiritual and a means of distraction by satan to keep me from doing the *word* ....the things that piqued my interest were unimimportant. Everything I was....my dreams my goals....my values......were supressed....silenced... stuffed away somewhere deep inside and forgotten. Free soul, WELCOME!!! I don`t know if you want any imput from me....but I`ll tell you that for the last 5 years I have indulged in my every whim....everything that was stuffed in a box and hidden away...I study karate....I train horses with my daughter....we ride...the kids and I hunt artifacts and fossels and are passionate about learning of the history of our valley......I intend on taking art classes as my next project...in fact ANYTHING that was once frowned upon or deemed unspiritual.......these explorations of my personal interests....seem to have been instrumental in recovering of the real *me*