rascal

Sam, I remember Takit. We all thought they were SO cool. Was that 79/80 or 80/81 I wanna know how come when everybody else got sent to exciting *outreach cities* I was SOOO thrilled to be moving to an exciting new city.....and I got sent to the armpit of the usa ...ARKANSAS!! (no offense Arkie Ron) I remember the fire works at the roa....marching out of the big top carrying glow lights ...marching to Battle hym of the republic blasting.... so powerfull so moving.... aaaaaand WOW burgers for all out going wows!!!!! yummie :D

While posting on wordlwolfs chronological events thread, I got to thinking about how so many of the events in twi, rather than to bless us personally as I so naievely believed, were in reality were simply *tools* for recruitment. I was telling about how Take a stand caravan came to Birmingham Al. The wows who I had been to fellowship a time or two were really excited....telling me that this would be the best concert I had ever been to, that it was Christian.... I would be so blessed........I just HAD to get there. Well...I went with them, and thoroughly enjoyed myself...the music was SO much fun ..... These people seemed SO cool to my dazzled 17 yr old eyes. Well no sooner than the last note played....this is no exageration...... there were people working the crowd with green cards and pencils in hand....immediatly, the band had not even finished putting down their instruments ..no exageration... I was surrounded by a maybe a half dozen people most whom I didn`t know...there was at least one band member .... I was litteraly circled with no room to exit while they pressured me to sign up for pfal. This was my first experience with intense high pressure sales. I tried repeatedly to politely refuse, but they were relentless....had ready answeres for each objection.....I finally said that I only had 60 dollars and they said *we`ll TAKE it! you can pay the rest later* It is not that I feel like the musicians were duplicitous necissarily ....I think that unbeknownst to them.... their skill and enthusiasm, their wholesomness were probably packaged and marketed for a recruitment tool for twi. In looking back, I can see that I was completely unprepared for this suprise assault....I went blythly ignorant.....trusting the wows.... expecting to enjoy a concert, a christian event (which WAS outstanding btw) I was not equipped to deal with the pressure afterwards...I know that my defenses had been lowered.... in hind sight, it would seem that this was event`s main purpose was a recruiting tool. I now have a 17 yr old daughter and can now recognise that at THIS age.....she is naieve and gullible, and that she would be completly unprepared for such extreme pressure.....she would be way too shy to object or desperatly not want to offend. It puts in perspective for me just how young and vulnerable that I was.....I trusted these people to be christian and to have altruistic motives. I think back on other events that I participated in....how many times did we have coffee houses or events that we were to invite people to...... we then were to use these as *open doors* for witnessing....a way to get someone to sign up for the class....in looking back.....it doesn`t seem like it ever really was about simply *blessing* people .... Roa seemed consumed with corpes recruitment....wow promo...college division...etc So much of the music we loved to hear contained themes of wow commitment...witnessing...tithe........

Geeeeeze o pete.... the more I think about it, the more irritated I get. Invite a naieve 17 yr old kid to a concert....hype it up as the greatest thing since sliced bread....get her away from her home town and family and when the defenses are down...she is thinking that she is just there to enjoy a christian concert..... gang up and corner her....they were all older .... they literally formed a circle around me....I think even some of the musicians that had enthralled me during the show were present....every polite excuse or attempt to extricate myself was shot down immediatly. I kid you not, I was given NO room to wiggle.....augh...I`ll bet they were all high fivin each other for their victory My daughter is now 17, the same age. The thought of her being manipulated like that when she is so naieve and vulnerable .....makes me see red....it also helps me to understand why I was so gullible and trusting. Sorry wolf, you asked for memories....no matter how warm and fuzzy....lol

The *take a stand caravan* was making the circuit in 79. Joyfull noise in their blue and yellow gym suits. I thought they were fantastic....They had a big impact on me....I had just begun attending fellowships and was fired up by the show and the fun music....but then I was cornered afterwards by a group of about 6 people most of whom I didn`t know.....and relentlessly pressured to sign up for pfal. I remember being very uncomfortasble and saying that I only had 60 dollars and they said *we`ll TAKE it* you can pay the rest later...geeeze that was a lot of money for a 17 yr old who had to earn every penny as a waitress. I really enjoyed the music, but in hindsight, it would seem that it was just another recruiting tool :(

Excathedra, that is absolutely disgusting. The damage that man inflicted is utterly reprehensible. Wierwllles response was equally so..... neither are the behaviors of a Christian, much LESS a leader..... It is hard to read, but necessary because though wierwille is gone and most know he was a fraud.... THIS man is still masquerading as a Christian minister! THIS man is still negatively impacting folks lives with reeeeeally bad counceling. THIS man is still decieving folks into believing that a knowledge of the scriptures as he presents them will help you to be of the spirit. THIS man is a cold, calloused , piece of work and has disqualified himself as a genuine minister no matter HOW many classes he teaches. He and his work are unworthey of any respect.

That was the guy, Samurai remembered more of the story than I did.... but I do not know who he married.

Um John, I didn`t see that the wicked forsook his way, OR the unrightious his thoughts, OR him return upon the Lord. He gave every indication of being the same wicked sob right up to the very end....Guess if all accounts are true.....he might miss out on some o that mercy when he is held accountable for his *shortcomings* I guess if there is no justice, then I will be sorely dissapointed.... It just doesn`t seem right that a person can deliberatly hurt so many for decades and then at the last miniute declare that he gets a *free passs* because he has labled himself a believer. His actions brand him as a man of the flesh and galations declares that he will have no inheritance in the kingdom of God. That makes a little more sense.

Gosh wb, that sure clarifies things. The sign posts were in the scriptures all along....sigh

I guess next then to be addressed will be the charges of assault, fornication, adultery, rape, cruelty, drunkeness......Will he be held accountable for being personally responsible for destroying OTHER believers lives? Will be accountable for each life his doctrine has destroyed? I suppose that his label as a believer buys him a free pass here as well? Let us hope that is not how justice or God will work, otherwise there will be no justice.

I was there, though a newbie in 79/80...so cannot contribute much. There were over 2000 wows, maybe 3000 ....they moved the wows half way through the year....the class went up to 200 dollars .....and it was announced on the field that lcm was going to be the prez of the ministry :o Before I went wow my wc tc told me confidentially that there was supposed to be some sort of government upheaval and to try to get stocked up on supplies and canned goods in my wow family. Pressed down`s *star of the show* album was the newest hottest music.. Some corps guy (monty something) had escaped from the deprogramers and returned and told his story the last night of corps week (somebody got us in to roa a night early) It all seemed very magical and exciting.

His *shortcomings* are highly relevant because they soundly condemn him as being completely unworthey of being a minister, and destroy his credibility as a christian leader, or even someone that should be trusted. Scriptures tell us clearly to avoid those such as he. On the other hand one MUST dismiss his *shortcomings* in order to give credence to his teachings. *shortcomings* is such a pretty word for regularly indulging in being drunk, letcherous, visciously cruel adulterous, seducing, raping, being greedy, belligerant and just plain ornery

Penguin, I understand.... It is very hard to reconcile the seeming betrayal of our trust....there are so many questions. How could God have been responsible for leading us somewhere that resulted in such misery? How could God have allowed us to be so used and mistreated when we wanted to serve him? How can we trust himnow when the first time resulted in such tragic circumstances? How can we believe that he is there when the people who represented him were so cruel? What is truth, now that we understand that so much of what were taught were lies? If God led us to twi...who then led our sisters who were raped and our brothers who died? Was the guy who witnessed to me working for God? When the person that someone else witnessed to was hurt beyond healing was that God who worked in him? Was it God who worked in some of us? Does God work at all? I have found a few answeres and understanding....but trust will never ever be easy, thanks to twi.

It has taken some time for me to contemplate your thought provoking posts friends. First of all, Thanks.... as much as things sucked at times in twi, I cannot deny that the worse things became for me, it seemed the more spectacular the deliverance invariably was. Mstar, I think that you are right...we were tc`s and we thought that we were doing the right thing....I have to wonder at what point or level folks actually became aware that the actions of twi weren`t Godly. I wonder if folks got to the point that they knew what they were doing was evil and didn`t care....or remained simply duped. I think that you have a very valid point about vp simply making his actions aceptable with doctrine. Dave, I was involved from 79 through 93 roughly. The cruel times were few and far in between, even if you figure on one incident a year.....the rest of the time I would be with loving and kind people...kind of figuring the rough spots were anomalys .... It is only in hind sight that I realise how incrimentally the things that brought me pleasure ... the things that made me ME were stripped away....first it was family...and after a while my books were frowned on...another year and I wasn`t supposed to be with my family...another year and I was screamed at and declared posessed...a couple two or three years before the face melting over my animals....the demands that I quit riding with the posse, halt humane society activities.....another 6 months and it was time to be rid of the dogs and sell the car.... There were always a lot more nice people and good times....it just seems like the hard times were more devistating. jkboehme, thanks for helping to see and recognise the *real historical me* I missed her :) Excathedra, I didn`t endure what you did as a child....mine was pretty cruel and very tough though...I too was trying to find myself when introduced to twi... When told that I was important to God, that he needed me in the spiritual battle...that I had a spiritual family that would always love me....that spirit was thicker than blood....Coming from a broken home ...having been abandoned by our father (I thought it was because we were so rotten) I found the seduction irrisistable. I was told that I could make a differance, strike a blow for God..... When it finally dawns on me that I really didn`t matter this time either...that I was only loved as long as I was obediant and usefull....when I was shut out...ignored because my spouse wouldn`t toe the line... I was back at square one...only this time I had children and a spouse to add to the burden ...and a whole lot less oportunities available to me. Thankyou eagle, I`d be willing to bet that the words you spoke had an impact on the folks eventually leaving.....I know that I ignored the outies that tried to warn me for a few years as well.. Bramble, I am apalled at how much of our lives were consumed by twi involvement, I thank GOD that we were out before too much was stolen from our children... I have had a wonderfull time with my kiddoes through the years hunting fossils, ball teams, theatre, karate, etc...what a shame if their childhood had been sucked away as our first decade or so as adults.... Welcome dojable...these threads are not so much about wasting time....most of the time it I am simply trying to understand what happened and why....and how to prevent it from happening again. In twi I wasn`t allowed to ask questions or to have feelings ot to be the person that I wanted to be....so now I am thoroughly enjoying the freedom to explore and exchange ideas, I enjoy being permitted to express myself and my pov after decades of being told that I wasn`t worthey. Digi, it is tough when our kiddoes have to pay the price for our mistakes...maybe they will learn and be smarter than we were. For though the younger ones never had to endure twi....all of my children had to deal with their folks way brain for years. Dan, I think you have very valid points to consider... I guess that it all boils down to whether or not the leaders knew that they were doing evil, and simply finding ways to excuse it ..... or if they were doing evil just because they were oblivious to the pain and suffering that they were responsible for. I am still not sure myself, I think that jkboehme is right, that there was a lot of real heavy maipulation going on.....but it sure hard to fathom it being actually deliberate.....it is hard to imagine folks being that ornery :( Oldies, I sure don`t get your point about rc or other denominations....we are talking about how twi hijacked our lives here. I started out as a 17 yr old ready for college and a career in the military and in a few short weeks my life changed directions. Everything that I wanted to be the, kind of life that i had dreamed of was not going to be permitted because twi told me that God needed me to do otherwise. I was told by twi that God required me to live in a manner that was not enjoyable...twi said that God required many things of me ....and it was a lie. God didn`t require me to give up my family... God didn`t require me to give up my goals and dreams... God didn`t require me to be submissive to cruel treatment...... God didn`t require my services at the cost of the life of my child..... *I* didn`t want to do these things and so many others....they didn`t benefit me God didn`t want me to do these things....they didn`t benefit him... TWI leaders were the ones that insisted these things and so many othe detrimental actions taken be so.... AND they were the ones benefited......this is what is wrong. They ruled...controlled our lives in GOD`S name.....by GOD`S authority.... Extortion in God`s name

I dunno bout *THE* devil, but I sure have been face to face with pure evil a time or two. :( But then again this was just a *trick* question, wasn`t it?

Awww Bell, and I thought they were such clever ideas....sigh. Well your idea got me thinking, somebody once gave me a beautifull little book ...kind of like a daily inspirational type of thing....cannot remeber the name of it, (like THAT helps lol) it was pink....but I`ll bet you could find it in a christian book store. It had a different story to read every day about a half a page about a mom and how she had impacted a childs life ....backed up with a scripture or two....and then at the end you find out that the child grew up to be some famous person who then impacted the world in turn. I loved it I will see if I can find it. Maybe your mom would like it.

Gosh Satori, I wish I had been clever enough to think of some of those comebacks. We needed you to write and publish some kind of little pamphelet that would fit in our back pockets on *how to deal with rediculous tyranical behavior in your leadership and snappy comebacks*....The cover could read .....Expecting a confrontation? Is your local leader a bully? Amuse your self and others with your handy dandy dealing with bullies thesaurus. Never again remain tongue tied during a face melting....never resort to stammering in confusion....Satori has all of the subjects covered....just flip alphabetically to the topic that you are being confronted for.....and voila.....logical impacting ammunition to return fire on your attacker ...scriptural back up is provided to add weight and lend authority to your pov. A must have for any twi member attempting to remain in good standing Never again will YOU have to tuck your tail between your legs and slink away in confusion after your leader has indulged in a scream fest. Never again lose your self esteem or respect :) Maybe the title could be How to disagree with your leader without being labled stiff necked... A must have for all of those unexpected confrontations....lol Too late for us, but maybe there is still a market for current twi believers. It is funny now....but was soo terrifying when it happened out of the blue....and just crushing when the ultimate declaration was issued...*your poZZZESSSSed*

Bell, I read an interesting book about how archiologists are deciphering the thousands of clay tablets out of sumaria (supposedly one of the earliest civilizations to be found) It`s clay tablets and records pre date the judean teachings by centuries....and yet most of the stories and allegories are the very same as found their places in the scriptures with minor variations.... The theory is that at one time, the judean prisoners were required to transcribe these while in captivity and took the tales back with them..... My neighbor (the retired methodist minister) kind of views the bible as a collection of tales of how God worked at one time with a particular group of people at a particular time in history.....the basic tennants are the same ...but He is on no way seemes to be limited to the understanding or rules of a people thousands of years ago. He is ever changing and personal.

It appears that jkboehme is too clever too stumble into the snares you set oldies :P

Guys, I stumbled across a great idea a couple of years ago that the families have loved. At walmart...there are frames for posters...about 2x4 ft for around ten dollars ..... one comes with matting subdivides for about twenty pics of different sizes. I filled one up with current pictures of all of the family members with pictures intermixed of when we were little or family events pets etc. I filled one up for each set of parents and they LOVED it....they are prominantly mounted on the walls....they truly loved it where people can see it and they can brag......and total cost was under 15 dollars. I am doing one this year for my step sister with pictures of their wedding festivities.... Also there are drink coasters that you can put family photos in if you don`t want something that covers the whole wall. I have also had the pictures from my fathers wedding with all of the individuals of all of the family members transfered to fabric with the intentions of using them as patches in a quilt that I am making. My Dad has asked for stuff to eat like gourmet cheeses and stuff that is special locally....his wife asked for a jar of black strap molasses....lol If you can crochet...there is a book at walmart that shows you how to filigree crochet folks names in a pretty design to be matted and framed......that are fairly simple. Hope some of these help Cathy I had another idea that my sister does.....she gets family photos.....and goes to the local office max type of store and has them made into hanging calanders. Each month has a different photo of family vacation spots fishing trips....maybe baby pictures....and you can print anniversaries and birthdays family events on the days of the month ..... Oh and for regular friends and stuff the book store has some books called something like *great gifts in jars. The one I like has the recipe for really good gourmet drinks...hot chocolates, cofees, teas....along with nice lables....my friends and syblings always love these. There are volumes that contain the ingredients for different soups and also books that have different cookie ingredients....all are decorated and usually really apreciated...you can even spend a little more and get nicer containers that they wikll use for other things....or maybe get personalised cups to contain their drink.

You know, I am beginning to really think about jkboheme`s point with his psychological coersion documentation....I have been thinking about the things that I absolutely LOVED ...things that I had been passionate about since early childhood that were either taken from me or I was bullied into giving up.... I did things that under any normal circumstances...I would never have considered. I am astonished when I look back and realise that my life from the time I began involvement was completely derailed....seemingly hijacked by twi... Within weeks of becoming involved at 17 yrs old....I completely turned my back on my loving parents....shut out all family members and life long friends because I was told by twi folks that they were *worldly* or that Satan was just using their concern and love to *trick me. I left my home, my plans for college because twi told me that God needed me in the spiritual battle on the wow field and that college was just *sense* or *worldly* knowledge .... I moved to fargo nd the most inhospitable and miserable place on the planet because well meaning leaders deemed that to return to home and family would cause me to spiritually *die* The raggedy anne doll that my Grandma made was deemed by my tc to be the *perfect* birthday gift for someone elses child..... My prized book collection was old man knowledge and was dangerous spiritually.... I abandoned my dog companion who had traveled with me for 10 years and my horse, gave up my volunteer activities because they were deemed to be holding me back spiritually, that if I didn`t go in the corpes...I was a failure ... not worth anything ...a dissapointment to God.... I didn`t go to my granparents funerals...as I was told they were already dead, what good would it do... When my tc demanded that I sell him my car that I had earned the money for myself at 16 and had maintained beautifully throughout my twi years.....because HE needed it....and I shouldn`t have that burden or expense on the wow field (2nd time) .......I LOVED that car but was terrified of going against God`s will by disobeying one of his leader....he only gave me 300 dollars for it. The very worst though was that when in order to remain in God`s favor and under his protection....and because I had vowed a vow of service to God.....I must abort my child. All of these things that I did.....things that absolutely broke my heart to do....decisions that I cried bitterly and brokenly while carrying out...... Things that I felt within the very depths of my being were tragically wrong....I did anyway because twi insisted that God almighty the creater of the universe required them of me.... I am astonished that everything that I loved, litteraly everything that was of importance to me, every activity that I enjoyed, all of my education and career goals pre twi was at some point deemed *unspiritual* and I was preussured relentlessly untill I gave it up. I am astonished that anyone could have ever have had that much influence...enough to cause me to ignore everything that was of personal importance at one time..... convincing enough to silence my every internal alarml.... that my whole life from where I lived to who I lived and whether my job was acceptable.....could become completely dictated by whatever my spiritual leader at the time deamed *advisable* After just one face melting, I was so afraid of the rightious anger... the consequences of God not being able to protect me if I didn`t obey leadership, tithe, witness, etc....I never dared to offer any resistance. I look back and am simply agahst at the cruel hurtfull things, and though despising myself at the time....I did ...the times I ignored every basic instinct in order to obey leadership directive....the times I was able to silence that voice inside....and do that which was required in spite of every fiber of my being crying out against the action dictated......because I was told that God *required* it to be so..... I am beginning to see that there is a whole lot more to this picture than me simply being incredibly foolish or naieve...or gullible or weak in order to have been so easily manipulated..... I begin to think that there is something far much more sinister than our noble but miguided leaders being simply *human* and prone to making a few *errors* in judgement.

So mex....whatever happened to the way in central and south America? Last I heard they had pulled away from the usa....are there any ministry folks still there? Are there spin off groups like there are in the us?

Oh yeah Tom T.....I remeber getting SCREAMED at by my LC for having a horse and dog (I was in a sheriffs reserve mounted unit and my dog was a tracker) He was LIVID that I had a bird and a couple hamsters recovering in my room in the way home I lived in (I worked in a pet shop and used to take care of the animals that were going to be killed because they were not sellable and find homes for them) I was terrified at the tirade that he indulged in and how evil he viewed these *distractions* from my corpes commitment .... Now mind you.....it was ok for him and the rest of the men in the state to have a fishing days or spend an afternoon watching ball games together....but let me volunteer a couple hours a week at an animal shelter or working for the sheriffs dept to raise money for kids and I was just plain evil...I was told that I was actually robbing from God :o Suuuure , it was ok for the lc`s to have great homes, nice vehicles, and indulge in the activities that they personally enjoyed.....but any time any of us tried to do that....we were *stealing from God* because our time or the money spent or gas used should have been utilized for the outreach of God`s word.... Do you know that my tc once demanded that I sell him my car before I left for the wow field? He said that HE being leadership needed it, He said that I didn`t need the responsibility or expense... he also indicated that if I went against God`s will and took it.......it would not be God`s will and so I would never make it to the wow field anyway..... I HATED having to give up my car that I loved :(

Act 2 .... It is funny, now that I work part time in a cemetary now....(I dig and lay the concrete for the footings of the memorial markers).....and after all of those years of being taught to be fearfull.....I have come to this to be such a serene (sp?), beautifull place. The people who come to visit are so loving and tender in their care of their loved ones final resting places....the graves of the small children decorated with toys, people leaving mementos and souvineers from vacations and missed milestones....nobody steals these things... You are struck with humbleness when contemplating the children who will never have a chance to reach their potential...the lives of the teens senselesly cut short....the fathers and mothers whom perished before they could see their children grown....the beloved grandparents who`s life long loving guidance has been irrevocably silenced. It is not a frightening place when you realise that all of the folks there are much beloved, cherished family members. You tend to become very gratefull and apreciative of each day that you are permitted with your loved ones....knowing that in spite of all we have been taught...things can change dramatically in an instant.....that the problems that you think you face today ...that tend to keep us distracted....are minor in the grand scheme of things. The stories each stone tells of peoples accomplishments, of lives well lived...have become an inspiration to me. Sorry, I guess that has very little to do with what twi taught us.

All you say is true...what amazes me is that it could appear so wholesom....that the methods in which we were trained to ignore our feelings and desires ....substituting ministry goals for our own, all were presented in a way that made us feel so noble about what we were doing.... I am amazed at how in just a few weeks after becoming involved, I was able to entirely close out the deep concernes of my family annd life long friends....In just a few short weeks, I completely changed my lifes direction....ie college and the military. It amazes me what they were able to convince me that God required of my life. I remain agahst at what I did believing it to be the requirement of God. jkboehme, it helps to understand how they accomplished this, that there is a identifiable process....Thankyou.

Ron I was thinking the same thing...and here is why.... In addition to my impressions from the propoganda I read..... We were watching a show yesterday....where a very rich suburban conneticut family went to live for ten days in the brazilian rain forest with a family in a village. Being extremely wealthy and used to a comfortable life style...they were quite taken aback at having to sleep on the floor communal style, kill chickens and armadillos deal with sickness....outdoor nasty potties...no running water etc. But they adapted beautifully and were quite gracious to their host family and ended up enjoying their adventure and learning experience immensly. The mother even ended up over coming her absolute terror of sickness. ....one of the host families babies had a very high fever ....not only did the suburban mom overcome her terror of exposure to a potentially fatal tropical jungle disease....she helped the mother to get the baby on a boat to the hospital and lovingly cared for the host families other many small children for days untill host villiage mom returned. They were later in the episode joined by the suburban womans vegan sister. From the very beginning the vegan was nasty and critical of the older sister. Her conversations all revolved around what a loser big sis was......She pis sed and moaned and complained all the way throughout the entire episode....She wailed brokenly when the chickens were butchered.... She ended the show and her dialogue by saying of her sisters daughter...that she certainly hoped that so and so would grow up to realise that there were alternatives to her parents lifestyle and values....that she hoped she would feel the freedom to explore other more wholesome avenues ...blah de blah.... Now mind you the Mother ...her sister was nothing but gracious and longsuffering...tolerant of the younger sister vegans rudeness and barbed comments....her non stop assault on their morals and character... She behaved with patience, class and dignity. I kid you not the vegan had nothing of value to contribute the entire experience........she even freaked out and was completely incapacitated at the idea of digging through thick viscuous mud to hunt crabs for dinner..... That would be the LAST dam ned time my sister EVER had access to my children.... Anyway...your comments put me in mind of this womans demonstrated lack of respect for anything outside of her own narrow little universe. I had thought perhaps she was just an extreme example...but seeing this material later in the news...I have to wonder if the attitude and attempt to turn children against their parents and families. She struck me as the epidome of these useless social engineers....completely helpless, but oh so willing to try to control everybody else.