rascal

Seems like the folks who were the most prone to assigne that lable to people were the ones who were in reality personally practicing the most evil in their lives. Go figure....

All of us? Speak for yourself oldies :D The insult was and is that God and scripture were used by twi as tools to manipulate our lives.

It is hard to come to grips with being decieved for so many years. It is much easier to pretend that all was well in twi and see ourselves as heroes...rather than feel foolish for being duped. One has to ignore an awfull lot of pain and dismiss a lot of cruelty and suffering to subscribe to this point of view.

Excathedra, I think that it is simply an attempt to excuse what wierwille and his buddies did. If you can excuse the inexcusable, one isn`t faced with the necessity of making the effort to reexammine reevaluate ones whole life and belief system. One doesn`t have to deal with the uncomfortable truth that we may have been wrong. If one doesn`t deal with the reality of wierwille...they can remain cocooned feeling safe in their belief system..

Ok Lorna... Can you tell us what facts that you have that counter speculation? There were folks, several of them my friends that were wrongfully accused and thrown out of twi as homos on a whole lot less data and reasons for suspicion. Guess maybe I AM nuts....but I suppose that can be an occupational hazard when one spends decades in a group like twi :P

There are scriptures talking about where folks assume that they were ....and Jesus in the end says *depart for I knew you not* I think that you are probably correct Evan....given the fruit in the lives of some the people that followed vp`d formulas. That just isn`t the way people who are born again act.

Lifted, you would be suprised to hear that I agree with you...lol I also understand exactly where oldies comes from.

Wipe the froth off your lip oldies <_<

I beg your pardon Allan, but your *main point* seems to have been nothing more than to attack personally Mark, temple lady and any others with whom you disagree, instead of countering their posts intellegently, so that others may consider your point of view. I would like to see what you could contribute of value here....maybe allow us to see what lies undernieth all of that venom..... With all of the hate and venom you are not able to present a very creditable example of what you believe.

Brilliant Skyrider!

Funny thing how victims tend to resent the people and circumstances that victimized them :( ... You give me far to much credit oldies....I am not nearly clever enough to write anything other than my impressions and experiences for what they are worth, whether folks can relate to them or not.

snort ... that was simply the bait to lure us into the trap friend oldies..... Suuuuuure ... It sounded good, it had to in order to put folks at ease, to disarmed our suspicions. We never would have participated had we known what the real agenda was going to be, what the real cost to ourselves was going to be.... TWI HAD to have reasonable, plausible explanations for outragious expectations they required ..... or we would never have stood for it. Absolutely ... the verses you quoted and others were used......but then scriptures were what were used to manuver us into so many untenable situations. They HAD to have valid sounding biblical excuses for dividing families, taking our money, destroying marriages, insisting on abortions, snooping through finances, controlling who with/where we lived.... decided what jobs were acceptable... justify face meltings ...justify adultery and fornication....(the *all things lawfull to them which are in Christ* doctrine covered a large area :( ) Scriptural documentation means squat when you look how the verses were used to manipulate folks. It always boiled down to do what twi said because they had scriptural back up or *%^#* off God :(

Lol Lorna, it isn`t gossip.... Fact: Rosie had two high profile lesbians sharing a room in the basement of her home for years....they have since left twi together I guess.... Rumor: SEVERAL posters have posted independantly that they have personal knowledge of Donna being *challenged* in this area... Why do all of the women that rosie surrounds herself with have challenges in this area? Makes you go Hmmmmmm I for one think that it is poetic justice.....hysterically funny actually......that the male dominated female 2nd class citizen ministry ends up in the hands of not just women...but devil posessed LESBIAN (to twi`s way of thinking) women :o I think God has a sense of humor :P VP must be spinning in his grave.

Hey Mark O, you are a class act. Your dignity and insight shine through in your posts. Glad that you don`t let a bully silence you. Folks generally come in two catagories round here...(regardless of what their current belief system is)......those who participate and contribute, and those who simply stalk the forums looking for a way to attack and discredit. The folks who feel compelled to slap a lable on you (or anyone) and then who use that as a basis attack are simply immature spiritually.

AUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGH.....the *any two believers can be married* doctrine.......so many people were messed up by that.... One tended to overlook faults like excessive drinking or harshness...asssuming that as *believers* they could make it work......Many a person found themselves completely overwhelmed with issues that they were unprepared to deal with based on this silly assumption. ROFL my spouse n I believed that .....after we left twi much to our dismay......Mr. oh so logical and frugal found out he was married to an emotional animal loving nut job..... Every time he comes home there is a new stray...be it canine feline or equine....that needs to be fed and vet bills...... Trying to get my spouse away from the puters which are his passion to enjoy horses which are mine....well it just doesn`t happen......lol Here is wonder Dad that wanted a big family married to a woman who didn`t even LIKE children in the beginning....lol (we have 7) It can work...but it sure is a rocky road.....how much nicer to marry someone with whom you have similar values and interests..... Now the kids are big enough that some of em hang out n do what Dad likes and some of em hang out and persue my interests.... :D Most if the folks I knew while in were married believing that....I don`t know many marriages that survived when people woke up and found out who they really were.

Just because you didn`t see anything that was wrong....doesn`t negate the intense high pressure sales tactics that were utilized to persuade us to function for twi`s benefit. From the instant I was introduced to twi, the pressure to preform in order to stay within the center of God`s will and thus outside of the devils ability to harm me.....was intense. They utilized the fear of God`s lack of ability to protect us if we didn`t preform in a prescribed manner to motivate us to do the recruiting in spite of our misgivings and embarrasment.

You are correct about the poison in a daddy longlegs Johnny, however don`t be suprised at what those tiny mandibles can do if you roll over on one. I know a lady who nearly died from a bite recieved in bed.

Living Victoriously 40th anniversary June 1982 Sound out 84 was in Nashville at the grand ole oprey. THAT was fun.... three or four days at the opry land hotel....great food best manners .... one night at the grand ole opry they had a history of way productions....had most of the folks who had ever preformed...wonderfull show..the other night I think they were preforming and taping high country caravan... There was formal dining, we dressed up, had to learn to use our best manners, it all felt so special. LCM and walter were teaching a chronnological time line of the gospels.....I really enjoyed that series. roa 79 Renewed mind the key to power roa 80 Your call to service roa 81 ? roa 82 God`s call to unity roa 83 Reaching the world with the word: Go tell roa 84 Reaching the world with the word: Living Epistles On a personal note, I was a wow in 79/80 and at the advanced class in Emporia in 84

That is simply your perspective of your personal situation oldies.... and as such not at all applicable to me or the pressures that were relentlessly applied to me to preform in twi. As it was presented to me by twi....there was only ONE direction to go IF I wanted to remain in the center of God`s will and therefor under his protection. Any OTHER choice would be unto our spiritual and eventual physical death...yeah a real choice THERE buddy TWI as a supposed Christian organization had no business kicking me or anyone else in any direction for that matter

Of COURSE that was what was written....that certainly wasn`t what was practiced. If the doctrines that were practiced in twi were actually written down where people could see it before they were deemed *spiritual* enough.... nobody would have become involved. You are a spiritual *empty* no better than animals if you don`t sit Good lord, I can see reading *all the women in the kingdom belong to the king* doctrine or the *fetus is just a parasite that interferes with your commitment* teaching or the *abortion is a noble and nnecessary thing to do rather than let a baby interfere with your commitment or ability to move the word* or the *all things are lawfull to them which are in Christ* teaching.... We all know there is a vast discrepancy between what the *public* was allowed to see, and those who were more spiritual.

I do not think that you are correct oldies. I was relentlessly pressured to sign up for pfal, and from that point on the pressure never let up for me to sign other folks up. I worked at a pet store that operated just like this.....we had a three page guide to follow where a person would be manuvered into a corner and end up buying a 500 dollar dog that they didn`t need or really want....and could have bought for 100 out of any newspaper..... Every month there were new sales goals to be met or get fired....what you did last month was of no consequence...it was all about the numbers....kudos and pats on the back for success....dire consequences for failure. TWI was like this from the very first day I started attending fellowships.... and the pressure to preform never let up. Yeah folks would be concerned if you had a problem....only as long as you were preforming....if you weren`t, it was figured you were simply getting what you deserved.

It was all so embarassing belle, .....I remember speaking to people....inviting friends and people who trusted me....knowing that when they arrived to whatever I had invited them to, that they would be pressured into becoming involved. Public x`s ...coffee houses...movie nights...coffee at the local omelete shop.... all were under the guise of speaking the word....the person that we were witnessing to thought that we just liked them.... The shame of knowing that I was being dishonest verses the shame of being viewed as unspiritual were always at war within me..... I look back at my time in twi and it seems I sure spent a lot of time being embarrassed, scared, and pressured..... Oldies man, I never got involved with twi to become a salesman for God...a hawker of classes....I was told that taking pfal would change my life....all that I recall was being put on track to become a better and better salesman/recruiter. It never really seemed to be about caring for the individual or helping them after they were finally considered *in the bag* once the green card was signed.... There was always some other class or some other program needed in order to achieve the desired spirituality ...prosperity ...etc. One of the things required to grow spiritualy or to be recognized as worthey was bringing new folks ...and having someone to undershepherd. You had to do these things or be consigned to the *spitual bump on the log* catagory. Samurai, that totally sucks and does indeed sound like what I endured. I remember a weekend advance..... the guys got to go with the lc fishing and the watch a ball game....what did the gals get to do???? We had one *class* after another on how to be a good wife. (I was single btw) We learned how to put these men first....minister to them so that they could best service the body....how to be submissive to a man who was spiritually your inferior...and THEN we fixed the meal for the guys! Oh boy! What a blessing THAT weekend was.....the ONLY reason we gals were there were there was to fix food and tend to the guys of the limb....aaugh More later, the kiddoes have art lessons this morning....lol

Absolutely Bell, I had more than one tc refer to anyone who didn`t speak in tongues as *spiritual empties* also one would very nastily declared that as far as HE was concerned, they (those who didn`t sit) were just breathin HIS air... You are correct, it was assumed in twi if you didn`t sit, you were not born again, nor were you of any value.

Krys... I heard those same threats that samurai mentioned....though they were used on me when my commitment wavered as app corpes when I got pregnant.... I was told that if I allowed the pregnancy to interfere with the committment that I had made to God, if I broke a vow made to God, then any and probably all of the above mentioned would have happen....(now THERES some fine print for ya <_< ) It all depended on where/when you were in the ministry as to how nasty you were threatened ....I don`t think anyone here is doubting that you were told these things.

Bramble, I was never cute enough to do that...I always looked very very young and tom boy.... but we did do other things that made me feel dirty. I remember when I finally signed up to go into the corpes....I was SO excited about getting to go to my first app corps meeting....finally, I was going to get to be in one on those meetings for the spiritually sharp...I was going to begin my education ito become spiritually mature. When we arrived...to my intense dissapointment.....our lc simply divided us up into pairs and dropped us around the city for *witnessing*... On the drive home (I had driven almost two hours to get to enjoy this privilege) I was so blue.... I remember feeling so bad....like I was a high pressure salesman for God....I felt like I was going to have to sell oranges like I did in high school and detested ....forever. It was such a bleak feeling...I realised that from that point on I would always have to have an agenda....I would always have to have a person in each class...that was how are spiritual progress would be graded.....I wouldn`t be allowed to have any friends outside of twi.....I was ashamed....and then I was deeply ashamed of being ashamed....assuming of course that it was only my lack of spirituality that allowed me to feel this way. :(