rascal

Wacky, my youngest still has her little koala bear :) She will be 9 this month...can you believe it?

I think that waysider has a very valid point, a genuine christian filled with the spirit of God just isn`t going to be doing these kinds of things .... and quite frankly that is the only type of person that one would want in a position of authority and power. I think the ministers that do these things are quite simply wannabe christians. They proudly wear the label, they spout the scriptures...but Jesus said that we would know one another by our fruit. Jesus said there were going to be guys who claimed to prophesy in his name and cast out demons...and he will say he doesn`t know them..... The fruit shows that these guys are not really our brothers. They have a weakness and have figured out ways to excuse this...repent fine?? That doesn`t mean that they will ever be trustworthy.

((dove)) I did indeed, it gave me a real chuckle. Likewise, I hope you realized that mine was attempted humor as well, (I edited a bit after you posted in all seriousness and hope you see that also) :) Thank you for the offer it is genuinely appreciated. NOW back to our regularly schedualed skirmish ;)

I did indeed receive music from Dove ...lol but that was no doubt before he decided I was his *nemisis* ;) Seriously, thanks again, it was indeed a blessing....and no, much as I would LIKE to villify you Dove, I know it isn`t about financial gain for you. :) As far as twi stuff...I think it isn`t even necessarily a monetary thing, but feeling what we had, what we learned, was of value. Of loving who and what we thought that we represented....of what we invested our hearts and souls into... our identity and self worth is somehow all tied into the ok ness of twi. If one negates vpw or the value of what he taught...it somehow diminishes who we are and what we believe...we go from super conquerers to dupes that enabled evil to thrive.... .some times we just don`t want to be wrong about what we have dedicated lives to...it is easier to blame or accuse the people who`s experiences contradict our own then it is to re examine our entire belief system, how we view ourselves, and the universe around us. I understand feeling that way.

Damned right I take it personally. These guys represented themselves as God`s men. They required this in God`s name...these girls were no different or more idealistic than us...they were targeted by the pervs. We were all exploited in one way or another in twi by these people...it`s just that these people had more taken. But me believe each and every story as gospel though?? Please....are you deliberately trying to be insulting? There were a lot more than just the story about the lc on that single thread alone. I have met a couple of the ladies who posted on that thread. There are many stories all with the same theme...the same thread running through each. ... the women being called to the motor home and pressured for sex. If refused, a drink was offered. next waking thought was in bed with sex in progress. Those who refused the drink were slandered afterwards and declared possessed so that no one would believe anything that they said. Did I know all of them?? No, but I knew a couple, and I know folks that personally know some of the other victims who posted. John Lynn himself admitted that there had been drugging ... Ralf D discusses the women who came to him for help afterwards...Kristin Skedgell wrote a book about her experiences. There are podcasts where she and the former trunk coordinator discuss their experiences. It is on the thread being discussed, also is on one of the accounts on messiah 7 site....all of which waysider provided the link to for you, and someone even bumped the thread up to the front page. There might be some accounts on the suicide thread as well. Rather than attack me on what these women said...why don`t you read the accounts yourself? There are plenty of reliable accounts, and no they are not all nameless and faceless any more.

Entertainment? No, I don`t view the thread being discussed as entertaining at all. Sickening, disgusting, upsetting that the men (and women) whom we loved, trusted, supported, prayed for, sent our money to, who claimed to represent God and be able to teach us all of the answers to life and Godliness.... did this to our innocent young brothers and sisters. We were young, vulnerable, and looking for answers, we were the ages my kiddos are now. It is inexcusable, it is deeply disturbing. Did you read the accounts? Yeah, I`d call him a rapist and a sexual predator and worse, because he used the leverage of promising God`s healing from torment and suffering to seduce, and when that failed, and the intimidation of the mog didn`t work... there was always the mystery drink offered. Entertaining?? No, I really cannot imagine anything less funny :(

Peace and comfort maybe pond, but not a whole lot of compassion or understanding it would seem. Wouldn`t Jesus bring that as well for the victims? Wasn`t he kind to the woman that the folks wanted to stone, to those who were hurting? The women you just blasted with such contempt ..those who you disgustingly accused of telling their stories for entertainment ... how would Jesus have treated them? How did he feel about the people the religious leaders of his day mistreated?? Sorry, I just don`t see much Jesus like in what you wrote at all. I see a hardness and meanness in your accusations directed at people who did nothing more than finally stood up to tell their stories. I see you attempting to justify that hardness.... As I see it, these people let us see who and what VPW really was. They told their stories when asked, and it set a lot of us free from the false doctrines that he taught, the lies that we tried to live. Frankly??? They are heroes in my book! Yup, they told what happened to them, and even if you don`t get it or understand why they did it.... I praise God they did... It served a valid purpose and was a part of the healing post twi. I appreciate finally knowing the truth, and thank each of them for their courage in spite of creepy cruel people calling into question their veracity, their motives, their character...etc. for if they had remained silent, most of us would still be trying to live a lie...enslaved for a life time. Dove, you were a different guy back then...I`d forgotten.

Hey David, welcome! Thanks for your input concerning your wow year and sisters. What makes you think wierwille was like saul and not the pharacees and saducees who disgusted Jesus to the point of him calling them whited sepulchers?? I have to say that as noble as your sentiments sound, as far as I am concerned ... Wierwille to all appearances is the enemy scriptures warn us against...the wolf that slaughters and devours God`s sheep with ravening jaws. He wounded and betrayed without mercy, he stole what was not his using God`s name using the scriptures as his weapons and tools. He destroyed people in God`s name....THAT my friend, in my opinion is the true heresy and blasphemy....I don`t want any part of any God that he claimed to represent...nor do I feel any compunction to share that doctrine with others.

Well Dove, there are your first hand accounts ... Thank you waysider for posting that link :) I had forgotten some of the horror. Well worth the re read to remind myself just how despicable this filthy pervert was.

Yes Dove, you are free to flip a coin and ignore the testimony of so many, the pain suffered, free to label the accounts as not credible...free to dismiss the testimony of so many people who were grievously harmed by this man and his ministry... That doesn`t make the crimes committed by vpw any less heinous, or the damage inflicted any less destructive. Dr. Phil?? Oh please...from what I can see he tries to help folks...What do you do for anybody?? All I see you trying to do is come up with ever new and clever ways to call into question or eliminate the evidence of the testimony of the actual experiences of people here in attempt to give your limited perspective more weight.

Dove that is rediculous....There were first hand accounts that some were fine with the arrangements?? So that makes the many cases of drugging, rape, manipulation and extortion for sex in return for healing NOT criminal or contemptible?? Good lord man, I have heard of only two accounts of people claiming to be *ok* with it...one, I don`t believe she is *ok* all.....while I have heard dozens of accounts of extortion, drugging, and rape...where the victims WEREN`T *ok with it*...where people went to the man of God for healing from their pain...ONLY to have the need for peace, the longing for healing used as leverage to get sex. People hurting so bad, wanting healing so intensely from the pain...that they were clinging to the last hope that wierwille could help them achieve the peace that their tortured soul was so desperate for....only to be told that he could heal them, that he could give them a reason to live...by sleeping with them. Bless his soul, what a saint :( If it was *ok* I seriously doubt that there would have had such life long impact on so many.

There have been many first hand accounts written here and at other web sites concerning the crimes that wierwille and his fellows committed..and no not all the accounts have been nameless and faceless....To suggest otherwise Dove, IS a fabrication. I can only figure that it is manufactured to minimalize the credibility of the numerous people whom have shared their experiences. These crimes have been acknowledged by more than one leader as to having occured.

Great to see you again Wacky :) I have to say that as much as I adore you, I had an entirely different reaction to the letter that you mentioned. If you want to know what I have done with what I was taught.....I have to say that after 5 years following twi departure of allowing twi teachings to keep me imprisoned, keep me from speaking up ... the beliefs used as weapons and tools to imprison.... I started to reassess what I thought I knew...ten years later, I am a totally different person. My family goes to a methodist bible study...my husband is still very arrogant in his knowledge, thinking that he is the wise one. He gets publications from off shoots, enjoys studying his bible and still thinks much as he did before. Basically, as far as I personally am concerned, he is as wrong in his understanding, as he believes the folks at church are. I feel like it all boils down to only one thing...Love God and Love your neighbor.....if what you believe takes you there....then more power to you, whether that belief comes from scriptural study or the little country church up the road. Jesus said that we would know one another by our fruit...I know where I see fruit and where I don`t. That`s what I do, that`s what I believe post twi..... If I can make my little part of the planet a better place by helping an elderly neighbor with hay, or feeding her stock when she is sick...if I raise my kids to be blessings instead of burdens on society...if I feed that stray dog...if I can fix things for whoever or whatever crosses my paths...and can do all this without an agenda, or requiring something in return....I am living what I believe...and that certainly isn`t something that I ever learned , nor was inspired to do by the knowledge I aquired in twi :( Maybe someday if I meet Jesus, he will look at me and say...when I was hungry ..you fed me, or when I was thirsty, you gave me to drink....now THAT would be cool :)

Socks, I think the way that you chose to live, what you chose to embrace, how you chose to react....shows what a decent man of character does. One whom is to be respected. The others had the same choices...they instead used what they were taught and the example set to become users and abusive...All of you under the same teachers, all supposed to be believing the same doctrine...yet some were viciously cruel. It is puzzling. Speaking strictly as a person that sat in the audience and thoroughly enjoyed the wonderful music that was shared...I loved it! All of it...As far as I am concerned, it was far more inspirational, far more meaningful many times than the dry boring teachings that would follow. Personally, I think that the people who made life difficult for the musicians saw that. I think that they were jealous, jealous pure and simple that a couple of 3 minute songs could fire people up in their faith and believing...that they could do what the dull search through the scriptures trying to extract the minute whichness of the why...completely missing the message of God`s love...rarely accomplished. I think that the music put the focus on God, I think that they were jealous that the focus was no longer on them and their great research abilities.....soooooo true to twi.....they had to diminish the music...diminish the musicians...just like they did when they slammed churches and other christians. It made them feel like big shots. Truthfully?? I think whether you were a musician or the teacher after...I think the difference lay in what was inside the person doing the presenting, who and what was the inspiration. In hind site it was easy to see whom was inspired by God and who was inspired by ego. Can`t tell you how many records, tapes, and cd`s from ministry days that I have worn out playing during tough times to be inspired and remember who God was and why he was there....and isn`t that the whole point?

I am SO sorry Tzaiah ... it upset me 20 + years ago when they said that. I debated a day before I posted it, I didn`t post it to be nasty, but to just show where some of these people who made the rules minds were at....and I don`t know why it was ok for guys to hold it that way...:(

Weeeeeeeeell I cannot remember who taught this or where I was, ....but I do remember being coached at some function that ladies mustn`t grasp the microphone with the entire hand because it gave the appearance of holding something else. I was completely shocked.

I believe that the scriptures tell a story about a certain set of people at a particular time in history. How much of it is true?? That is about as easy as figuring out how much of pfal is profitable..lol I think God would be perfectly capable of inspiring and teaching us here in the 21 century in a way that makes the most sense to us within the parameters fo what we can understand and allow, rather than trying to apply a system of belief designed to accommodate the understanding of a particular group of people 3000+ years ago. I think it is like raising kids, no one set of rules apply as to how best reach each kiddo and help them develope. What works for one will not necessarily work for another, what the teenager is capable of and understands is vastly different than the toddler. Do I believe in 2 crucified or 4? Do I believe in the trinity or not? Are the dead alive now or not?? Was there a man who really lived in the belly of a fish for 3 days? Did Noah REALLY manage to get pairs of every animal on earth?? Who cares?? I mean How really does that affect our responsibility today? Love God and Love your neighbor...anything past that is inconsequential imo.

Lest we forget...we are talking about a supposed *christian* minister...a man who claimed to be working for God... He has been convicted in a bigger court than any we have here. If one sets any store in scriptures, according to THAT Galatians 5:19-21 ...he is damnably guilty...and people who commit the crimes talked about here, well....he is sentenced to no inheritance in the kingdom of heaven. Dunno what that means exactly, but it doesn`t sound good for wierwille and his buddies who used the scripture to sate their lusts and fill their bellies.

The thing is....there is no way that wierwille can ever be brought up on legal charges to prove his guilt in the crimes that he committed .....This appears to be just one more effort to shut people up concerning the abuses suffered at the hands of VPW and his people....and Dove knows this. First it was lock box...then m&a, when abuses were revealed.... slaughter reputation, accusing the victims of lying, when too many came forward to ignore....accusing them of wanting it...stretching the truth...etc Just one more attempt to shut the witnesses to the perversions up, as far as I am concerned. It is too late...wierwilles crimes have been exposed for all to see....his damnable guilt completely tarnishing any reputation and forever negating any legitimacy to the doctrine that he propounded. The fruit of his life and ministry, the swath of destruction he cut through peoples lives confirm his damnable guilt more thoroughly then any court.

You know? These arguments arguing the legality of posting if our experiences here remind me forcefully of twi doctrine and teachings. They sound and look well meaning on the surface, a legitimate consideration....but in reality are designed to accomplish another goal entirely.....And when one carefully begins to examine the content of either...it could be interpreted or construed as nothing more than a means to an end.

Excuse me?? I didn`t misrepresent anything Dove, My post wasn`t directed to you...What *I* was referring to was a previous post where it was said that people here falsified facts. As far as what you personally choose to believe? I`d personally would call it something else entirely, however that is your affair....what I do have a problem with is attempts to silence peoples experiences and input because they don`t measure up to some goofy made up standard. I understand that in order to continue the masquerade that the ministry was a legitimate christian organization, or that vpw a genuine Christian, a man of the spirit...in order to feel validated in ourselves and our belief systems...indeed what we dedicated our lives to, we must try to eliminate the evidence of the fruit in his life...the clear indications that give evidence to the evil man that he was...I get it..I really do, I understand that one must make the folks with experience to the contrary as somehow untruthful...or lacking legitimacy, in order to maintain ones personal perceptions.

PFAL was presented as the answer to ANY problem that the person being witnessed to needed addressing. Whatever it was....abusive spouse, bratty kids, no job, sickness, loneliness, whatever it was that you were lacking in your life....PFAL would provide the answers and make you more than a conquerer in any situation. I too thought it was incredibly boring...I got excited about their explanation of dinosaurs...but that was about it. I assumed that my lack of enthusiasm and appreciation was do to my own shortcomings spiritually, but was convinced if I sat through it enough times and followed instructions of my spiritual betters...enrolled in enough programs and other classes...I would one day see and understand the greatness.

Yeah, not only was JS run off for writing the paper, to even READ the paper was to be considered to allow ones self to become possessed, and to be thrown out of the ministry.

What or whom exactly on this site has zero integrity?

....aaaaand this information is considered *stretched* and *false hoods* because it doesn`t match up with the way one personally wishes to view things? I don`t like what you wrote, or the implications it has to my belief system..so there for you MUST be lying...eh? I personally find it surprising that people are willing to call hundreds of posters liars whom have related their personal experiences, people they don`t know all in defense of men whom the accusers in all likely hood never met or spent time with on a personal basis either. The finger pointers don`t know the guys they are defending any better than the people they are accusing of false hoods....yet it is a lot easier to label the victims as liars then to examine ones critical thinking and perceptions of beliefs. Thanks Pawtucket for providing these forums. I had been out of twi for 5 years before gs, and had really not progressed at all in my critical thinking, or changed my beliefs. It was in the discussion of ideas amongst other people that didn`t exactly think like I did, having to defend my notions, learning to read and consider others...that I began to heal, to question, to grow again. All I can say is that your efforts have made a huge difference in one family.