rascal

You missed my point plain and simple..... I am sorry that it wasn`t communicated in a manner that was more effective....I think that the thought was valid...how much better though if I had been able to communicate it in a way that you could comprehend and consider...... You have taken offense where none was intended, my bad for not being able to communicate my intention and thoughts better :(

Johnny if THAT is all you understood from my post then I have wasted your time and mine...I am sorry and certainly will not trouble you again.

as per excathedra, Dott matrix and shaz dancer....I am nausiated :(

AMEN Evan!!!! The personal conduct of vp and twi leaders just isn`t IN the nature of any true minister or spiritual leader....for the genuine man of the spirit......it truly is an inside thing that makes such actions not only unapealing, but unthinkable as well. It quite simply is the difference between a genuine and the counterfit.

The contradiction is....fruit.... In order to say the way and pfal was a tree that brought forth good fruit.....one has to say that the bad fruit didn`t exist....a tree cannot bring forth both according to the scriptural analogy. So you want to blythly go on touting your way experience and the people you knew as good fruit of the ministry and pfal.........reminiscing about your corpes days like it was some kind of rowdy frat party most of the time...... BUT...to do so completely ignores the putrid fruit of destroyed lives....it cannot exist according to the analogy. I think that the context of your good times and great friends would have to be something entirely set apart from the fruit of twi and pfal.... It was your buddies and your experiences....your spirituality......good fruit .....verses twi and it`s harmfull doctrines hidden in the good, twi`s leaders who justified abuse of their power and authority, were successfully hidden behind the good leaders of character and integrety...that genuinely tried to help.......THESE are the fruit of twi Maybe we are talking about two different trees and entirely different situations. Just because Johnny had fun, doesn`t mean twi was a spiritually wholesom place....... Just like the good doctrine of bg leonard was a vehicle that carried the damaging doctrine in pfal....the good folks were the cover and momentum that permitted the evil practitioners to sneak in and destroy from behind the scenes. When LCM ran out the good folks the ones with enough charcater and integrety to not accept the atrocious behavior when confronted with his line drawn in the sand....there was litteraly nothing left to disguise the evil practiced anymore.....and twi is folding because of it.

Oh Lizzy, that is a really sad thing to see you say......Oh honey....God doesn`t weed us out of a group because there is something wrong with us....look at the example that God`s son set....Jesus ministered to the sick, he ate with the publicans, he sat with the sinners....he touched the lepers....cast the demons out of the troubled That statement is so cruel and a direct contradiction to how the scriptures apply to your brother or sister in Christ :( Lizzy, you said ..... Not too many say they are sorry or ask for forgiveness, .... To which I reply that they certainly do if they have honestly TRULY experienced Godly repentance.......scripturally, it is required.....and if you have genuinely repented, it becomes a big enough deal that you reach out and heal the hurt that you have inflicted if at all possible. Lizzy, I won`t say that wrongs weren't done and perpetrators were violaters but that's NOT ME and that's not MY ministry. To which I reply..... it is still the same people in charge of YOUR ministry who committed and permitted the atrocities to YOUR brothers and sisters....to occur in the first place ........ Lizzy, I have NO doubt that on a personal level, an individual can see signes and miracles...but even out here in various denominations....that tends to be because of the individual.....you bring your own spirituality and integrety to where you fellowship.....as did/do we....however one must consider that the leaders ...the same who devistated YOUR sister and brother in Christ....are garnering the credit for your integrety and your actions.... I hope that you can read my words...and consider what I say withot seeing it s a personal attack or a need to be defensive. I know that you love God, I have no doubt that you can personally see results in your life....but that is because of what YOU personally are doing. The people who run your ministry are the very same who deemed your bretheren as so much garbage to be cast aside.....and apparently still views those whom God holds precious....as not worthey of the effort to retrieve :( Do you see how your statements reflect the heartlessness with which your ministry apparently still view your brothers?

Plagerism is theft plain and simple.....talk about trees and fruit...... How are you going to have good fruit from something that was dishonest at the very conception....SURE the information was good tha he stole...from a man who gives every evidence of being of the *spirit*... But then you have a man who`s actions were definatly in the *flesh* catagory* ...he mixes good doctrine with bad in order to support and give credence for some of his pet perversions....... The way I see it.....you have a crook using some good materials that support some really bad doctrine.....that is a recipe for disaster.

I dunno Johnnie...if Y`all are the *fruit* of this ministry ..... In all humble honesty I have to ask you .... What the he-- does that make the equal number or greater of folks who were devistated in one way or another by this very same ministry? Do we not count? Are hearts and lives destroyed not considered putrid fruit? Where do we fit in your analogy? If the scriptures say that a GOOD tree can not bring forth corrupt fruit.......on the surface that would appear to disqualify twi right then and there.... The suffering endured by so many seems inconsequential in the *fruit* count.. it feels like we were inconsequencial in the grand scheme of things....and therefor inconsequencial to God.

Whew...I HAD forgotten that one Diazbro......This mindset would tend to flush ones credibility as a christian right down the toilet.

It is really nice after all of these years to have names to put on this stuff and to be able to understand in a clinical sense what has happened to us and why it was effective. Thanks guys for placing some very vital peices of the puzzle in place for me.

No The thing is....these lc`s both of them were incredibly loving and kind....and seemed to honestly believe that they really were helping me do the right/wisest thing. They were doing the best they could according to how they had been instructed....Even now, my anger does not lie with them.....but in the false doctrine and standard that we were taught.

Act don`t EVEN get me started on how angry I am that twi insisted that God almighty who had done everything for me .......desired/required for me to kill that baby in order to keep a promise to him. A few years later down the road, I was now married, my husband and I called our lc to anounce that I was pregnant .... I guess we must have sounded rather shell shocked....because he greeted the news with the rather odd comment of .... .. well it`s a *keeper* isnt it? In hind sight it seems so calloused to casually refer ones baby as a *keeper* verses one that you would throw away.....but I think that was the mindset taught due to the *first breath* doctrine.

Act 2 When I found out that I was pregnant on the wow field, I left I assuming of course that I was a disgrace.... and notified my lc that I wouldn`t be entering the corpes that fall....assuming of course that my actions were reprehensible, shamefull, that I had behaved in a truly immoral fashion. Well I was found and asked to come to the limb....I couldn`t even hold my head up I just sat there staring at the floor mute in my shame. The astonishing thing was that the lc didn`t seem to even think it was a big deal....said that having sex wasn`t the sin...however it WOULD be, if I allowed the consequences to prevent me from keeping my committment to God... now THAT would be the shamefull and inexcusable thing. I must not break that vow of service to God. Everything was to be forgiven I could rejoin my wow family and continue in the corpes program just as soon as the little problem was *delt* with. I was so stunned, it never dawned on me that I hadn`t completely disgraced myself. That was the first incling I had that sex outside of marriage wasn`t frowned on.

OMG there are so many times this phrase was used to manipulate folks into silence. This was used on the parents of molested children to get them to shut up....it was used to silence rape victims...and to hide spousal abuse. It was usually followed by the equally famous phrase to allow it to be handled *in house* that it was spiritually wrong to take a brother in Christ before the *worldly* courts

Ex, I believe that his actions support that conclusion. I do not believe that based on his demonstrated lack of compassion and inability to love that he was a genuine minister or even Christian for that matter.....it is something on the inside that makes such selfishness unthinkable. It isn`t something that you can just fix by throwing enough scriptures at it and operating principles.

John you are not displaying the love of God that one would expect of a brother in Christ to his sister who had been raped by a man who claimed to represent God`s will for her life. You appear to be so blinded by your defense of a man`s actions because you are invested in his doctrine.....that you appear to be oblivious to the cruel way in which you treat your supposed sister in Christ. You would prefer to discredit her, dismiss her importance in order to give this man`s words credence. Your lack of compassion for folks who have been deeply wounded by this mans actions...and instead even reverencing him leads one to question your ability to comprehend our responsibilities as Christians. Ex, I don`t know what to say other than after your testimony that someone simply refuses to *get it*....that it is a tragic example of where adherance to this mans doctrines and classes will eventually take some one. It always seems like the fiersest defendants of wierwille are the most calloused when it comes to their brothers and sisters.... I guess that it is a good thing that God doesn`t seem to see us as necessary collateral damage to a ministry.....according to the scriptures, we are each precious to him. Not to be treated as a product to be consumed and cast away as garbage when our usefullness is exhausted :(

sop oldies....

Allan, it sounds to me like you still need a pat on the back and to feel special about being a participant in the corpes program. Who the hell are you to think you know what our hearts and commitments were to twenty years ago? The ones who are *belly achin* are the ones who were misled and mistreated and have damned good reason to resent that their honest intentions, pure motives and earnest desire to serve God were exploited.

I don`t recall Paul Allen asking you or any one else for a single penny or support oldies. He provided a web site and filed a law suit that took the mighty twi down....the first! God was at work, people were freed, the truth became public knowledge...twi incapasitated.....Paul and Fern were reimbersed for the atrocities committed against them.......it is really funny that you have a problem with such heroes.

John ..... consider that maybe vp couldn`t or wouldn`t list em because he decided to be oblivious to the impact his personal *sins* had on other`s lives....of course they weren`t important enough for him to care about or remember....that burden was left for the victims who`s lives were devistated by his crimes :( That is not the mark of a Christian, much less a leader of God`s people. Sins are a BIG deal when they hurt others.

...and yet not being aprised of the facts...doesn`t prevent him from attempting to cast aspersions on their character, discredit their motives, and pass judgement <_<

I imagine that it took a LOT of courage and decency to persue this through the legal system rather than taking it out on the perpetrators physically ..... as many would have been tempted to do if faced with similar betrayal by one`s minister, employer, and spiritual brother.

Sure thats what the publications said dove....too damned bad that wasn`t how it was implemented. Like everything twi did ... there was the public persona and how they presented things ....and then there was the reality of how things operated once a person was pressured into making and keeping a committment. You can pretend that the pressure, the dishonest representation, the immoral manipulation to ensure compliance didn`t exist.... but that in no way negates the dishonesty, bullying and manipulation with which many of us were treated.

NOBODY should have to relive the horrors and secret shame of what one endured at the hands of twi leadership to simply to satisfy your morbid curiosity for the salacious titillating little details of what/where/when/for how long...ad nausium....oldies It is ENOUGH to know that twi was SO afraid of the truth being made known in a public court of law that they willingly paid MILLIONS to keep their dirty little secrets private. The laughs on twi though....because there are still thousands of us out here that know their shamefull dirty way they treated their supporter and are more than willing to pass it on to any who have ears to hear :D

AMEN Bell and Wafer Not!!!! :D