rascal

yeah but scriptures tell us how to identify Christians....FRUIT! Now I understand where our confusion lies. You are confusing fruit with works, fella. The fruit is a natural by product of being a Christian ...not something we strive to achieve.

Moi? :P

B.G> Leonard vs. V.P. Wierwille .... is quite simple The genuine vs the counterfit

Routinely? Oh just so long as it is only occasionally eh ? <_< I guess that you learned well in twi.....Behave in an outragious manner and then scream bloody murder when people confront you on your rediculous behavior. Sure, blame it on everybody else John and then you won`t be faced with the need to change. It is easy...but certainly not honest, you are decieving yourself.

I don`t know mex....these folks out here with their 5 senses traditions are LIVING it, their lives have the fruit indicative of being a Christian that we were told to look for when trying to identify one another. Whereas In twi we talked about it, acted like our knowledge made us spiritual, yet the lives of our leaders and many of us to a lesser degree were clearly indicative of people of the *flesh*. What gives us to believe our leaders were of the spirit...teaching scripture wasn`t listed as a manifestation....big DEAL if they aren`t living it.....it is a tinkling symbol. I think that looking at the lives of our leaders even WITH all of their knowledge aren`t able to hold a candle to the christians out here even with their traditions......I have to wonder if there was more to being *of the spirit* Even in the ministry their were genuine people of the *spirit* and people of the *flesh*....we all had the same teachings..... I know folks who have gone on to become of the spirit after leaving twi.

I know that is what we were taught.....but our leaders behaviors in twi do not line up with how jesus told us to identify one another nor did their lives reflect the qualities of that indicate that one is of the spirit. I have seen the genuine......and I have to wonder how many of us will be told in the end.....*Depart, for I knew you not* :(

It seems that the presence in ones life of the manifestations of fruit of the spirit and the fruit listed in galations 5(?) is the mark of difference between the genuine and the counterfit. As per oldies: Ceasing the behaviors that are contrary to one who is of the spirit. Scripturally there are behaviors that mark people who are of the flesh, and there are behaviors that mark people who are of the spirit....in twi we were taught to make excuses for folks who manifested fleshly atributes....taught acceptible excuses for continuing to sin. I think the actions of our leaders as well of our own at times show that there is something that we don`t understand.... It might have something to do with knowledge puffeth up...I don`t know.

I think the statement *I wish I were the man I know to be* is very telling.... A genuine Christian would have been that man period..... it wouldn`t have been a struggle, it just would have happened as a matter of course. I know folks and have read where people instantly, the moment the become a Christian lay down their cigarettes, never to pick em up again....I know some folks that had destroyed their marriages over alcoholism issues.....immediatly stop drinking and never desire another drop and become the fathers and husbands that they needed to be...... Yet vp with all of his knowledge couldn`t stop either behavior. He didn`t see the need to stop his adultery and fornication either. I think that there is a lack in our understanding....as was in our teachers...I won`t even say that it was on purpose...I think that they were decieved into believing that they understood. I think their actions indicate that they were mistaken, with tradgic consequences. Oldies, that is just the point..... genuine Christians do not do these things....they are not even tempted. That rational is what we use to tell ourselves that we are ok.....we are still wishing that we were the men we knew to be.....instead of just DOING it. Being a genuine Christian is differen`t than simply justifying why our s--t don`t stink.

After having been out for a while, I have had the privilege of meeting many genuine Christians in a variety of situations.........not that there weren`t many in twi.....it just I have to wonder if those folks were that way before becoming involved. The behavior of Christians out here seem to exemplify the attributes listed in galations of the *spirit* they don`t have any problem with not hurting their bretheren, not having sex with each other, not destroying others mariages, or molesting children....sure their are folks out here wearing the Christian lable that are doing that as well.....but the genuine chritians regardless of their church offiliation I meet are different. What I am struggeling to say is now that I have seen the *real* deal.... I know deep within myself....all of my years of research and studying and classes and fellowshipping all of my earnest seeking has not gotten me where I want to be....there is something vital missing in the mix. I want to eminate that love of God, I want to be that gentle understanding person, I want to face danger and fear and stress unflinchingly with chin held high, defying the odds because I honestly believe and live *his grace is sufficient for me* Twi taught us scriptures and introduced many of us to the idea of research....sure......but isn`t it puzzeling that those who claimed to have the answeres, who acclaimed the research the most vocally and were most earnest in their commitment somehow ended up being incredibly cruel and calloused in the damage they willingly chose to inflict? These are not the actions of genuine Christians or Godly people....they were worse than the rankest of the unbelievers that we so despised in their theivery and damage inflicted on our trusting souls. I have to wonder if a knowledge of the scriptures or formulas for being saved or principles for spiritual growth are necessarily the end all be all holy grail to spirituality that we were led to believe. I know people out here that haven`t a fraction of the knowledge that we learned that are incredible, loving, inspirational Christians.....all without the benefit of our knowledge.... I don`t think that our knowledge learned is what is going to help us be genuine christians....you know....the ones that we were given the atributes in the scriptures to recognise each other by....if anything our knowledge and research abilities seem to have the effect of making us feel very arrogant. Those fruit of the spirit aren`t things we strive for because we claim to be Christian....as near as I can figure.....those atributes are there as a matter of course because of what is on the inside of us....it isn`t something we strive to achieve. The problem is....that if we THINK we understand spirituality as we were taught in twi....we may never truly understand it at all........I find that is sad to think of forever struggling to make twi`s formulas work....forever not understanding the love of God for one another. Did twi/vpw REALLY do us any favors if the scriptures and formulas taught are the very things that prevent us from being genuine christians? I mean sure we all assume that we are because we sit....then how come we can be so ornery and unkind? How could vpw and lcm and their buddies even in spite of what they taught....be genuine christians when they were able to behave the way they did without compunction? I have met genuine Christians now......they are just different in a way that is hard to define....I don`t expect folks to understand ..... I just think that there is more to the formula than we were taught, or we wouldn`t act like we do nor would twi leaders. After 20 years I have just decided that I don`t know anything....I have seen the genuine, and it ain`t me...romans 10: 9 and 10, and no amount of scripture reading, or praying or sit or witnessing or tithing or any other works has gotten me there. It is going to have to be an inside job.

Doojable, I was just goofing, making fun of myself acting childish...... I didn`t mean to be disrespecfull og you or your comments at all :) . Your imput is always apreciated.

......... but maaaawum (said in my best 5yr old`s whine) HE did it first! :P lol point taken..... you have to understand though, it isn`t necessarily even the subject at hand.....John has been disgusted with me for years.

The best gift given in our family this year was from my 14 yr old daughter..... A little back ground first......She took charge of an abused pony many years ago and spent years helping it to recover from the trauma sufffered. The pony had been deemed hopeless....but years of love lavished and gentle treatment has had it`s effect. Abby loved this pony like a child ..... anyway, Christmas morning she asked me for the prettiest bow from one of my presents.....an hour later she informs her 9 yr old little brother that there was one more gift out in the yard ....... Aaron went out mystified to find .......... that beautifull little black pony with a giant bow in it`s mane. That little guy went into ORBIT! :) All of these years of watching Mom and big sis train horses and now he has his own to love. I was so proud of my daughter, not because she was so kind to a brother that drives her nuts....but she gave him something so very precious to herself.

oooh man....I think that I just got *clocked* as I deserved :o Oh I wish I hadn`t MADE you do that John.

You and only you yourself are the only one that placed your fanny in that position John dear. You act like a complete a-- ....and then, rather than examine your actions....make the apropriate apologies ... act like a gentleman and a christian.....you try to assigne the blame for your foolishness upon everybody else. Rather typical of twi contamination, to my way of thinking. Further more, folks don`t need excathedra in order to be absolutely appalled, physically sickend and completely revolted by what vpw did. He earned our disgust all by himself. The scriptures condemn him soundly and make abundantly clear that such as he...has NO...nada inheritance in the kingdome of heaven....must be some more of those scriptures that you have forgotten eh?

Ahhh yet ANOTHER outstanding demonstration of compassionate Christian brotherly love Why I believe that I can even detect the hand of Godbehind what you wrote.... Let me be the first to say that you and John are an inspration to Christians everywhere.

Branch wierwillians....lol would have been much more honest anyway. No wonder martindale needed to eradicate him from twi memory buy getting rid of the classes and books....the activities..........there wasn`t any room for him in there with wierwilles ego. Wonder if he wouldda changed the name himself if he had stuck around long enough.

I put leaders...because we were told that to obey the leaders was our primary responsibility. It they were wrong, God would cover because of our hearts and believing....Right or wrong the leaders had final say....in spite of what the scriptures seem to indicate contrary to what was being required....or any feelings or thoughts that we had to the contrary. As far as the bible....does anybody get the chills remembering how it was emphasized how God magnified his WORD above his name..... We became worshippers of the scriptures rather than God in many instances.

Doojable, good points....God certainly has a variety of avenues at his disposal to reach us.....(guess that means I have joined your clique by agreeing with you :P ) John, your behavior certainly hasn`t fit that of a Christian, but then again, niether did that of a lot of people in twi. What I have to wonder, is how Godly based were wierwille and his doctrine really ..... if it has assisted in dragging and keeping folks so far off of the Christian track. A true Christian (I am speaking of wierwille now) just doesn`t have the willingness much less the desire to treat another with such visciousness and callous disregard of damage inflicted. Read about how Jesus said that we would know one another ....... recognition had NOTHING to do with which requirements that we had fullfilled.... I think the alcoholism played a much higher role in his doctrinal organization than we realised. Maybe all of that scripture learned is not necessarily a garantee of our spirituality? Just a point to consider.

A word fitly spoken? Don`t fool yourself buddy.....your comments serve only to defend a man who`s cruel actions harmed your sisters grievously. The man is dead ok?....Your sisters are still present here, your comments are cruel.....So be it...people are free to be as big a booger as you please .....But for God`s sake please, at least be honest about what you are doing...... don`t EVEN act like there is anything beneficial or Godly about the thinly disguised insults....or calloused indifference and lack of regard you have for wierwilles victims. I understand that you need for wierwille to be ok so that you don`t have to think beyond the warm little cocoon of his doctrine. .... but to minimalise his evil, OR it`s impact on our lives, OR the far reaching contamination that his actions had on the doctrine he taught or his ability to recieve the things of the spirit...... is to decieve yourself.

Gosh Doo, I am so sorry that must`v been upsetting. The b-stards ran you out of town because you were a threat....I am so sorry. As far as the punishment?....it varied with who and at what time frame in the ministry....The one girl whom refused a threesom with lcm was immediatly escorted off grounds...and her reputation savaged.....I belive that she was simply shocked and timidly refused.....one person told me that they were thrown off of the wow field a week or so after refusing wierwille on his bus....I don`t think that she .....raised a stink, I think she was just terrified.........some who had family members influentially placed were apologised to...go figure ------------------------------ Witch hunt??? Johnny these are things that wierwille AND martindale said to the girls to excuse their actions. not ME! Wierwille said many things that appeared innocent on the surface ... but were later utilized by him and those he taught to extort his desires. These were our sisters....these were the teachings that wierwille used to manipulate them ..... I am sorry, it`d be a lot more fun to go on believing that we were some kind of spiritual hot shots....but unfortunatly we were simply what added the appearance of legitimacy to an otherwise cery evil group of men.....just like leonards class was what gave the appearance of a legitimacy to wierwilles depraved ideas.

Doojable, this is exactly what a couple of different people shared with me that happened to them when they entered the corpes at a very young vulnerable age. there are also some stories on a different web site where different women had the same thing happen with the same teachings and pressure. Some were immediatly dismissed from the corpes and escorted off grounds before they could speak to anyone, one gal told me that by the time she got back to her home state...no one was allowed to speak to her....they had been told that she was thrown out because she was so posessed. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Um Johnny, the girls themselves said that this was one of the points SPECIFICALLY used by wierwille and lcm themselves as to why it was ok and not adultery. This isn`t my personal speculation. I agree one hundred percent that it was a flimsy excuse....but it WAS one of the examples used by these guys to justify their vile actions. The fact that they BOTH used this line of reason to multiple women gives one to suspect that it wasn`t coincidental. It would appear that there was a whole seperate doctrine used to justify the sating of their lusts. They knew most of us wouldn`t have put up with it... I repeat this man was unworthey of our trust regarding our sisters, he is unworthey of our trust in spiritual matters. Leonards work gave him credence that he couldn`t have otherwise mustered for himself. Leonards work was the vehicle to give credibility to wierwilles crazy doctrines. Plagerism of this mans work was and still is a big deal....even if you personally benefitted.

Me niether doojable, it was all very innocent on the surface......however when many of the women were being groomed for service wierwille and lcm........there were things shared .... specific teachings that were used to silence the girls objections. I am telling you what a couple of girls told me happened......and what other posters here have related. They couldn`t just come out and tell these young women *look the mog wants you to have sex with him* There was a series of sharings usually from a specific work co ordinator or ones corpes tc`s . When they entered residence all of a sudden they were the focus of the attentions of some highly placed women.... the girls who have shared, said that it was generally about a three month process where it never dawned on them what they were being prepared for.....but there was always more than one person that were coaching....pretty soon the girl was rather isolated accept for these sepcial friends....pretty sinister... I am telling you that THIS rational was but one of the reasonings that the girls themselves have said were told to them that made what was being required appear as justifiable and why it was NOT considered adultery or fornication. There were others....like there is no part of the body that is better than the other.... a p---- in a v------ is no different than a finger in the ear..... All things are lawfull to them which are in Christ..... it`s just a matter of what you can handle..... So many have shared how they were cornered....most say that the same logic with scriptural back up was applied....and that the pressure grew relentless...

You would have thought so Johnny.....except that was one of the scenarios that were used in the indoctrination of the initiated ones. Sure on the surface it seems innocent enough....but it had a whole new meaning when the abuser showed that since there were no more kings....this days mog`s were the equivelent. I ask you again.....what if it had been you personally johnny OR your teen aged son for that matter that was required to preform oral sex on a naked nasty old man as your area of service to the body of Christ....what if it was you who endured the shame because to do otherwise would result in losing the respect of the man of God...the man who made the spiritual based decisions of your life.......so you submitted, humiliated ...shamed...disgusted........as were our sisters.....would it be so easy to feel that wierwille was a wholesom source for truth????? Yes there were very good parts of pfal that were plagerized from leonard....yes they are still truth.....but it was utilized to support bad doctrine and give credence to a man who did not merrit it....that would indicate that it is not a tree that was good in my mind.

Lol...just my lack of communication skills at work yet again Just loafing....thank you for understanding...I did indeed mean to address my comments to Mr. Lingo. Guess I will dig my hole yet even deeper by trying to elaborate on my point...sigh As far as the rowdy frat party jibe......that is simply what your reminisces have reminded me of...I didn`t really mean to get you mad......the stories all seem light hearted and to revolve around johnny n his buds having fun, flaunting the stuffy authority...able to outsmart the estabishment...even make em look stupid once in a while.......johnny had a good time ....so did his friends in spite of the creeps in charge.......kindda reminded me of the movie animal house...in a GOOD way. ...... So anyway....the criteria for twi/pfal as a tree and the fruit that the tree produced is that it HAD to be good because Johnny and his buddies were the representative good fruit.....in my mind.....it stands to reason that the people who were hurt were either fruit as well...or not important enough to be part of the tree period.... So Johnny has fun ...learns bunches...is successfull.....learns some scripture that helps him....meanwhile his sweet sisters who`s hearts were just as dedicated ....who`s commitments were every bit as earnest as his, their desire to serve God ..........were being groomed for something else besides teaching at sunday night service and running twigs.....they are learning that their primary spiritual responsibility required is to service the filthy old b-stards that were running that nut house :( Now it is funny, but If God was there.....and the criteria being that Johnny got blessed....that means that the girls who`s call to service involved other areas of responsibility.....were not I often wonder how differently peoples opinions would have been of wierwilles classes and doctrine had his tastes been for the young men. Would you be so willing to respect him or his version of the truth if it had been YOU whom had been summoned to his coach....required to give him a pedi cure while he sat naked and then had his member stuck in YOUR mouth??? ...well that is exactly what was happening to your horrified sisters...and much worse......while you guys were recieving your education. Put your self in their place and for just a brief moment imagine the shame.... Would it have made any difference? Would he STILL be a trustworthey representative of *truth*? I think the honest answere is no.....if he was untrustworthey with something as basic as love, moral decency and character...every aspect of his teachings are untrustworthy.....every truth is tainted.... the Good word that was stolen from bg leanard is a HUGE deal because it lent legitimacy to a man who was not spiritual. He built our trust on that word that was stolen and thus lent legitimacythat he hadn`t earned to his personal crazy doctrines that hurt people. Is this not how false prophets work? They have to be close enough to the real thing to fool the believers..... If wierwille had relied on the fruits of his own labor.....we would have all recognised him a little quicker I think...instead he had to hide himself behind anothers life work.