rascal

I remember.....I was a tc. We were allowed to blythly go about our daily activities....never aware that wiewille was sick....We had one criptic note that he needed some prayer....and a week later the big secret in the middle of the night message that vp had died and we were not allowed to tell ANYBODY. We were to call an emergency meeting of our fellowships.....given strict instructions and a paragragh to read ...absolutely no more no less....then send everybody on their way......my poor people looked at me like they were so betrayed....here I had known this info for almost 14 hours and hadn`t told them....I felt so sneaky and ashamed....my heart had been so heavy with the horror of the unthinkable.....and I couldn`t ...was not PERMITTED to discuss it..... We were so bewildered and hurt....WHY hadn`t the alarm been sounded...WHY hadn`t we dropped everything and instantly assembled 24 hour prayer groups all over the country......WHY hadn`t we been allowed to pray? So I went out wow in aug..... roa was a subdued afair....the first without vp welcoming us ....everyone was looking for answeres when they arrived...none were provided.....everyone just kind of walked around in a daze avoiding everybody elses eyes. Wow training was REALLY wierd.....kind of like an afterthought......athletes of the spirit had come out and everybody was able to see it by their regions. Many of our regions went while we were in wow training....do you think that they could allow us to attend with a different region? as a wow group? Oh Hayull no too bad so sad....you missed out on the greatest spiritual production that had ever been produced. I was floored at the lack of planningand lack of caring demonstrated....They would give us breaks for drinks and smokes....but then schedual the entertainment while everybody was milling around and talking.... I remember Sam Preyn was playing and nobody was listening....just milling around yacking...I felt like it was so disrespectfull...and yet we had been on our bu tts for hours....nobody was gonna miss a chance to smoke.... His eyes haunted me....he didn`t look happy to be there....he looked very upset....I don`t know why....just didn`t seem like the same inspired joyous person I had seen the previous year center stage roa. Whoever coordinated wow training didn`t seem to think things through very well....we were lined up dressed in stockings and heals...the guys in 3 peice suits HOURS before we actually marched in....seems like we marched a long distance... the wow parade? the heat was intense and people were passing out....no chance to eat or get a drink for hours and then having to sit through an entire evenings service.....I remember many of us felt pretty puny by the end of the night. It didn`t seem like the nice little extras that made us feel loved or the kindness was exibited that had been previously. Probably everyone was still out of sorts with vp`s passing I guess. All I know is that it was very different than previous years..... Usually wows were sent out with a breakfast....as it was we were just dismissed with the rest of the roa crowd. More to follow ...

Whew....wow way corpes adv class anyone? I remember those *warm fuzzies* my *spiritual family* being a part of *God`s elite* *spirit is thicker than blood* being *on the front lines spiritually* being *dog soldiers* ..*staked out committed* We were special, we were loved....we were better because we knew so much more scripture.....but we only stayed special as long as we were on the fast track spiritually, ie taking every class and having a new person in every new foundational class.... As soon as you were not involved in a program....if you got tired or decided to get a better job or an education....you were no better than a *bump on a log spiritually* ...were *sleeping spiritually* a *dissapointment to God*..... twi giveth the warm fuzzies and twi can taketh away....sigh

Hmmm very thin biblical veneer..........probably explains his christian veneer as well and why he wasn`t the real deal....just a thin covering masking the true quality of the material undernieth. A pretty veneer can cover for poor quality and shoddy workmanship ....making a piece of cheap crappy furniture appear to be of strength and quality..... The difference between the genuine and the counterfit, I suppose.

Oh COOL Shell.... I am ashamed to say that I haven`t cracked the albums....I have NO idea where many of these places are....I know each stamp has a wealth of information....but no idea how to retreve the stories that they could tell.... Now fossels and arrow heads....THAT is my passion and forte` :)

Cool Chef, can I pick your brain as well? I have stamps from all over the world from late 1800 early 1900....many from countries no longer in existance. It was my 85 yr olf friends fathers collection...he was a British diplom,at so has quite an extensive collection.... I have a letter rubber stamped from 1835 and one from 57 I think. I too am at a loss as to how to value these or identify them for insurance purposes.....are post cards from 1911 from all over the world with their stamps worth anything? I seem to have become the holders of these collections from all different branches of the family.....

Yeah wash I know, my husband knew her at lead....he agrees with your sumary.....

Well I know that they taught that old vpw decided to die....that if anybody in the final 24 hours had asked the right question that he would have changed his mind and lived. He died of a broken heart..... What a load of crapola...... I am deeply deeply ashamed to say that the one and only time that I ever hurt my beloved Grandmother was when I mindlessly parroted this sh-t to her. She had had a son who had died in college of hodgkins disease.....he fought valiantly till the very end never gave up..........my stupidity was an assault on her dear son...I was basically saying that her son died because he was weak and her prayers lacked power because of her believing. I am so ashamed.....I have never seen that look in her eyes....I was also abysmally foolish enough to send her a copy of *are the dead alive now* for Christmas one year.....sigh The woman was a saint and forgave me of course.....never spoke of it or held it against me.

Yeah she was pretty awfull...her actions were reprehensible...but she DID attempt to leave with her husband at first. If craig had done the right thing as a spiritual leader and brother n Christ.......instead of influencing her with everything at his disposal to stay with him instead of her husband.....the outcome would have been very different..... Come on......it wasn`t like anybody could be on equal footing with lcm.... It wasn`t like LCM really loved her either.... What it reminds me of is the story that nathan told David about the rich man stealing the one single precious little lamb that his neighbor owned. The betrayal by the two people that Tom should have been safely able to trust was overwhelming.... This situation shows what a heartless self centered monster Craig Martinadale really was and the atmosphere that thrived at hq.....

Excellent points 2 natures. Your description of wierwille and false profets fits to a *T*. Welome to greasespot :D

CRAIG was the spiritual leader. CRAIG threw a hissy and wouldn`t allow Ramona to leave. CRAIG had responsibity to minister to Tom as his leader. CRAIG didn`t give a tinkers damn about ANYONE or ANYTHING except his piece of tail was getting away I`d say h-ll yeah .... the responibility rests squarely on his shoulders....he was in charge...physically and spiritually....he took advantage of his position and power....he savaged the poor guy to absolve himself of responsibility and had to make himself look like a hero by the abominable lie that Tom would have murdered Ramona.....His behavior was reprehensible. Poor Tom`s only fault was loving a weak woman.....and having the misfortune of an evil man as his spiritual leader. The poor guy had no where to go. My friend committed suicide when his wife left him to live with his corpes buddy.....the betrayal and loss was more than he could bear. He delivered the kids she had left behind.....and then blew his brains out....

(((Likeaneagle))) It is a tough thing to realize that the people whom we were trusting to lead us spiritually....just simply did not have our purity of heart :( It takes uncommon orneriness to do this sort of thing.....the death of that man rides aquarly on martindale`s shoulders.....and instead of Godly sorrow...what does the guy do? He savages the poor deceased mans reputation.....sad really pathetic. As tough as this is to come top grips with though......it is the beginning of understanding and honesty....it is better to know and to heal....than to remain decieved.

Lizzy, please consider....and I mean this in the kindest way.....but please just consider for one minite that your wonderfull love and integrety are what people around you will see when introduced to twi. Your presence adds legitimacy to an organization that once people are out of your sphere of influence, stand a damned good chance pf being deeply hurt by a leader with less kindeness and principles that you yourself live by.\ I have no doubt that God can bless us in whatever place we chose to take root....as is evidenced by the variety of beliefs of the posters here. If one can read their thoughts without bias....you can generally find pearls of wisodm. However your presence is how the evil ones are able to masquerade as a spiritually healthy organization :( Your leaders are still in place ...the very same ones that facillitated and covered for the most heinous of offenses...it is a matter of public court record. ..... they are still there and as of yet have not repented...and still in charge of your ministry.... Your character and presence disarms peoples suspicions ..... The evil that still abides in the top leadership ranks is still in a position to harm the people that you have so lovingly nurtured. The evil hides and lurks behind your integrety. I feel you, like we once were....are the disguise that hides the snare from view....you and the spripture you offer, the love you manifest are the bait in the trap of the hunter. In vain is the snare set in sight of the prey.....

Mine is a 73....It messes me up cause the gears are on the wrong side.....oops sorry for the derail....it shouldda been taken to pm....lol Just goes to show, we aren`t always as entirely evil as we appear to be here ....There is always SOME redeeming quality to be found if you look hard enough :P

I have a Harly sportster that is in a sad shape of neglect.....sigh yes I AM a sinner :( . One day I dream of getting it running, but it is not a priority to ride till I get the kiddos raised...... We have a problem with dear/dogs induced accidents and death.

Our Karate class hosted a bible fellowship that operated the same way word wolf.... Even the issues that one would think were the most devisive, we usually managed to find common ground...and 99 percent of the time we were able to learn something from the others pov. That is how it happens though when there isn`t any pride or arrogance involved.

Snort, doojable, I don`t believe that I have indicated in any way that I presume to know oldies man or his fruit....I only know him by what he posts here..... We disagree purely on ideaology issues...outside of that I know we share in common an outstanding taste in motorcycles :) So you think that fruit is optional? Kind of makes sense the way you present it.....however what about a bad tree bringing forth good fruit or a good tree bringing forth bad fruit......Personally, I`d say that the legacy of twi counts as some mighty putrid fruit..... Why the are we told to identfy one another by these? I can only figure that must be why it takes more than what`s on the surface or the lable we plaster on ourselves to be identified as a genuine Christian.......... Why are we told in galatians that people who live by the flesh ....and the behaviors listed were those that our leaders indulged in....have NO inheritance in the kingdome of God?

In mathew......25 b35 For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you took care of Me; I was in prison and you visited Me.' 37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or without clothes and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and visit You?' 40 "And the King will answer them, 'I assure you: Whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.' --------------- Ok....So we have two groups of people here expecting access into heaven......... 41 Then He will also say to those on the left, 'Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels! 42 For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger and you didn't take Me in; I was naked and you didn't clothe Me, sick and in prison and you didn't take care of Me.' 44 "Then they too will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or without clothes, or sick, or in prison, and not help You?' 45 "Then He will answer them, 'I assure you: Whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for Me either.' 46 "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Whatever you did not do for the least of these......you did not do for me either. That sounds pretty condemning to me. Which catagory does the ministry fall into? Which catagory do we personally fall into? This would seem to indicate that there is more to being a christian than the formula we were taught.....otherwise why are those other guys up there to begin with? -------------------------------------------------------------- Raf, those are very good points..... Wordwolf.... that is why I am doubting that our knowledge of scriptures as we were taught in twi as being in and of itself enough to help us to become genuine Chritians... I just know that there is a difference....most christians I know do not have a problem with the fruit of the flesh that we did in twi. I don`t know any group who`s leaders were as indulgent of their sin natures as ours. ------------------------------------------------------------------- P.s. LOOKIE what I did !!!! I cut n paste for the first time!!!!!! :)

Thank you SO much out in 88....I really preciate that........I will book mark that for future reference. Oldies go right ahead and ignore/make excuses why the very last line is unimportant. That won`t excuse that scriptures say this is a big hairy deal in spite of what wierwille believed and taught. Those who live like this (and we KNOW that they did) will NOT inherit the kingdom of God :( I think that his fruit identifies him as a counterfit Christian.....I am afraid that adherance to his formulas could possibly condemn us to a lifetime of struggle, never truly understanding what it is to walk by the spirit....you know....because we think we KNOW everything. I only know that I have witnessed people manifesting the fruit of the spirit.....they are different on the inside....I think that being a Christian could involve more than reciting some verses and slapping a lable on ourselves... I further think that vpw and lcm are examples of ever seeking but never coming to a knowledge of the truth. That makes me even sadder than if they were just knowingly indulging in evil.

Just loafing, that would make the most sense to me. Oldies, you are once again changing what I said AND misaplying what scriptures say in order to try to obfuscate the whole issue. You have no valid point of your own to make....it is all just a big game to you all revolving around who you can discredit. If any of you who are more computer savy then me and could paste galatians 5: 19 -25....I would be very gratefull....because those key verse make my whole point for me......

Just loafing ...I will even give them the benefit of the doubt....that maybe they truly believed that *all things are lawfull* *let him who eat meat not condemneth he who doesn`t* *all parts of the body being of equal honor* *all the women belong to the king* What I question is whether or not they were genuine christians based on the fruit manifested .... in SPITE of their knowledge of scriptures.

PRECISELY!!!!! That is exactly what I am saying. What I DID see manifested frequently in twi leaders vp and lcm in particular....has been labled in galatians (thank you tlb :) ) as fruit of those who are *of the flesh*.

Then WHY did he say...*by their FRUIT ye shall know them*....obviously there were folks who could pass as Christians that were not..... Your leaders and your ministry failed that test given in the scriptures, no matter how much *word they preached* or *how much they prayed* or HOW *thankfull they were to the one true God* Jim Jones did the very same things......that did not necessarily make his congregation a spiritually nor physically healthy place to be.

BINGO! I think that you nailed it z....what did twi do that WAS Christ like? Just loafing, according to what I read years ago.....according to some who were there at the end, he seemed a little puzzled by the kindness of the women there ...given as how he had treated them....he recognized that he had been harsh, I guess. My personal opinion was that he was weak, too weak morally to make the necessary changes in his life.....this is why I question his spirituality. Most folks don`t WISH they were the man they know to be.....dogone it...they just DO it. Oakspear, I think that you have a very valid point....I have long wondered if God works within folks within the sphere of that they will allow or can comprehend.....thus the instruction to identify one another by the *fruit* . You have someone who professes Christ but acts like a royal sob destroying lives taking that which wasn`t his...ignoring every instruction given to us biblically.....and then you have someone who demonstrates peace longsuffering meekness...etc but is of a different faith... exemplifies *love God and Love your neighbor* Which one is behaving more Christ like? Which one is following the instructions in the scriptures? I`ll trust fruit over lables ANY day. Reminds me of the story about the 2 sons who were told to go to work in the fields....one said hell no....but went and did what his dad asked...the other said yeah he`d be there and bailed.....one said the right words....one did the will of his father.

(((((((((((((((((((Imbus))))))))))))))) THERE you are...lol Glad to see you for a brief miniute anyway. I hope that you will drop in occasionally and say hi :) Rottie, ditto what Belle said ... great to see you as well.

So anyway, We have established that wierwille HAD a sex doctrine that was contrary to what he taught the rest of the ministry..... There were many many leaders who subscribed to it.....I have mixed thoughts about revealing them now...on the one hand, many of them have probably changed.....on the other ..some of these guys are participants in exway groups.....and need to be confronted if they still practice this damaging doctrine. We know that according to numerous people, Chris Geer was a fascillitator of wierwille`s worst perversions ... and yet he still maintains that he is a minister/teacher/leader of God`s people. Even a lot of the guys we really liked didn`t have a problem with the doctrine....they just didn`t seem to hurt as many people. I can name the much loved lc/rc that chased my wow sis around the desk every time she had to meet w/ him. But I am reluctant....it was 20 yrs ago.....it would impact his wife and family now..... We know that some members of the bot ..according to the records on John Juades`s sight ....he got vp.`s cast asides..... There have been accounts here through the years of various leaders some we liked some we didn`t who were participants. This doctrine was one of vpw`s core beliefs......it hurt a LOT of people....people even died because of it`s practice. I`d say that made it big deal :(