rascal

[snip] I really don`t see it as much of a step beyond this to the young women that were molested in twi.... They entering the way corpes or wow field believing that they are there to serve God.....Having learned to trust their ministers as spiritual leaders....having them presented as representatives of a wholesom God and the scriptures......with the blue print of God`s desire for our lives.....claiming to have ALL answers to life and Godliness.....to then being groomed and then required to submit sexually in order to be a dulous....in order to be deemed spiritually mature.....to be drugged when manipulation failed ...and have your protestations to be silenced by threats and coersion. [delete]

The pathetic reality of all of this is....that their anal attention to detail did NOTHING to help them be spiritually sharp or even minimally spiritual......as was claimed. These are some of the sleaziest characters on the planet....and yet their attention to detail was what supposedly marked them as great and spiritually in tune with God..... Like I said.....if lcm and vpw are the results of everything being decent and in order???? Give me disorder and clutter ANY day! Do you remember when it was noised abroad that vp liked Gene Stratton Porter books? We all were scouring the antique store and flea markets for our own copies....though I`ll admit that I did love some of the stories.

Lol me too excathedra....whenever my husband frowns upon the disorder in my home the four cats, the iguanas, turtles fish.... dogs....the horses.....the lack of grass in the yard hee hee hee I just tell him that I am in open rebellian against anythin deemed spiritual in twi

OMG I knew that vp had taught about the fathers in Africa or some such place......[cut] omg and because the great vp said it.....almost everybody lapping it up like it is so spiritual..... [edit] My God...and people question whether or not that we were brain washed? Dot you were very brave to go to help Mrs. vp I would have been terrified would have had to skulk around ashamed because even though innocent, I always feel guilty. Excathedra....again, thank you. Guys...(((((Ex dot, cat))))) thank you so much for speaking up about this difficult subject. You know that your stories are what finally pried oped my eyes and set me free. I am so sorry for what you have been through....the horrors that you endured....but here you are turning that into a tool that is helping yet again. Thank you for having the courage and stamina to continue to discuss this. People have got to KNOW that twi wasn`t what we were led to believe....People have got to KNOW that vp was unworthey of our trust before they can begin to honestly address what we were taught. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You know...I SHOULD probably just back away from the key boards when I am this angry....but jeeemany christmas....that vp taught this was ok and good.....makes my blood boil. [edit]

Agreed, terribly frustrating.... but understand, as her undershephereder...even though decades past...I`ll bet there is some respect and love still there on her part. Anything anti ministry or attempt at reasoning you write will be viewed as evil of course.......I would try to be gracious and kind, treat her like an overly excitable two year old...you know? I would just gush about how pleased that I am to hear from her, share some fun stuff from my own life...ask her about hers....etc. You might be her only life line....but spook her n she`ll cut it and drown.

Isn`t it silly Dave? I have been given a hard time by a few folks for my spouse not supporting craig with the loyalty oath....Even though now out.....They seemed to feel that they were more spiritual since they stayed and fought for the ministry......even though in hind sight we can see that he was a psychotic lunatic way before he wrote that letter.......and admitting that there was nothing that could be done to save the ministry....lol

Gillian, you never know when the words you speak will make a difference. I would say that as long as theyare willing to have dialogue, though small, there is a chance that God might use you or something you say to connect the dots for this innie. It may not even be now....but years down the road, your words/actions will germinate. I remember being this way..... I would still be in myself it it weren`t for the twig moving out of the area....making excuses....convincing myself that it is all right. My suggestion to you ....if you care.....is to be your wonderfull loving self....no confrontation...any attempt to open their eyes would be viewed as satanic of course.......I would want my life, my actions my words to reflect that God was still the center of my universe....that he loved and blesses us where ever we are ..... that I had found nurture and continued growth.... Let her see (without saying it) that the ministry was wrong about people who leave....it will speak volumes that you have not become a raving lunatic....that you don`t get struck down with horrible disease and death.....you know, all of the stuff that we were scared into staying with. Then when the crisis hits...and we KNOW that it will.... your friend will be able to think ...well geee whiz Gillian has been out all of this time and is fine....maybe the fear wont be there to leave....does this make any sense? I like to think that my life is the * in your face PROOF * that twi was wrong about a lot of things....that folks will see the hand of God`s blessing wherever I fellowship. As far as the minitry changing? Yeah some of the practices may have changed due to legal litigation and an attempt to stop folks from leaving.....but is that really change? If it isn`t Godly repentance....then is it worth anything at all? Repentance entails apology, restitution, asking forgiveness, scripturally twi is still not a Godly ministry ...according to the standard God established for one who harms a brother.... The reference to people leaving the area ....maybe their new leadership is fine and a blessing....that just means their old leadership is torturing an entirely new group of innocent folks :(

Well...my husband signed me up here.... when we were first married he bought a metalic purple truck for me that had the word RASCAL painted in huge orange letters across the side of it.... Also with the maiden name of *coon* it reminded me of the Sterling north story about a raccoon by that name Funny thing though....whem I became rascal in the forums....my personality changed as well...I became fiestier....more spunky....became couragious enough to start evaluating my twi beliefs and experiences.... It is funny because my *rascal* side through the years has since bled over into my *cathy* side....I like the rascal me better. My kids even refer to me as rascal now :)

and the letter that he sent to us said we had to make up our minds...whether to stand with him and the ministry that taught us God`s word.....and don`t give me any of that standing with God crap..... To simply publishing a small parcel of one of THREE letters ....the one written to staff.....does not make any point....nor shed an accurate light on the oath itself being required of those out on the field who were not salaried employees or in a position of responsibility..... We were required to write an oath of loyalty to lcm.....who DIDN`T give the recipients of the third letter any room to wiggle. If one refused to write an oath of allegiance to lcm...you were then sent a horrible letter....your corpes status removed.....he was so childish....it was the only thing that he could think of to hurt us.......like a thwarted bully....he was gonna mess us up any way he could. Lets see.... swear an oath of allegiance to someone who called standing with God *crap* Might have been a little tougher had we not seen personally him go half cocked and act on completely false information.....not bothering to make a small efort to aprise himself of the truth......nor bothering to apologise when he was proven wrong. He reminds me of a two year old throwing a temper tantrum.....lying flat on his back.....fists and heals drumming on the floor....howling his frustration.....and while acceptable on a two year old...it ISN`T pretty on a grown mog.......Geeze what a goon.

Eagle, I am sorry. I think that you probably are viewed as a threat to everything that they have learned to hold sacred....you crossed that invisable line. I remember well....I remember how srongly I clung to every jot and tiddle.....because I knew that if you allowed doubt to creep in....one little bit...you were in danger. You will begin that slippery slide down the muddy slope to being in left field...posessed...stiff necked.... It took over 5 years after leaving twi to even begin to look at the possibility that there might be some error in the *truth* I had held to so fiercly for over a decade...all of my adult life. I know that I felt that if I considered anything other than what I had been taught....that I would prove that the ministry was right...I was a cop out......as long as I didn`t renounce the truth.....in my mind I was STILL a believer and the ministry was simply just mistaken about me. We are very fragile when it comes to our belief systems apparently....your questions raised, threatens the very fabric of their universe....who they are what they believe how God operates...what is our responsibility? Who knows though....maybe you have planted some seeds that will germinate at a future date...maybe your information is the first step forged in a Godly designed plan to lead them out of their confusion. I know that for me...it was many small bits of information from unimpeachable sources that eventually brought me to the place where I could possibly consider going beyond twi teaching.

I may be wrong...but it seems in hind sight that ROA 86 and 87 marked the beginning of the legalism at the rock.... they began to lose their fun. There were required twig meetings in the mid morning....it was announced that everyone should either be meeting with your twigs or at some teaching throughout the day. We were expected to be in the wow and corpes promos and teaching series.... It was really wierd.... free time where you wandered around meeting old friends etc....was frowned upon. It seemed like everything was becoming regulated ...like it was getting hard to breath. I don`t remember anymore dances ...... no fun events.... it was all business and we should be there to learn the word....anything else was a waste of time.

Well.... at the time....many of us didn`t know that there HAD been a mass migration....it was all kept hush hush. South America officially pulled away from the USA. I think that this was headed by Ricardo Caballiero...but am unsure. At some point in here the newly installed bot of 5 was dissolved....Ricardo and John Townsend left. My LC was fired by HA for sending Copies of Ricardo`s letter to the tc`s in our state. That wasn`t so bad in and of itself....hq has the right to fire anyone they want to.....but these folks had served the ministry for YEARS ....and deserved a little better than being screamed at and dismissed. The sneaky thing is that HA then LIED about why our lc`s left.....acted like it was all planned and that the lc`s had decided to resign and move....Not a real BIG lie since the lc`s HAD planned on doing so at the end of the year anyway.....but never the less....it was the first time I had seen an out and out blatant falsehood from one if the hq leaders...It was very disquieting knowing that one as highly placed as ha was dishonset :( Craig was crazy of course....he came to Emporia mid week one time..... and issued a last miniute invitation to the state to come for an informal mid day gathering....many couldn`t attend as we all had jobs and most had kids in school.... Well there was one creepy little guy from our town that attended and boasted to the great lcm that he PERSONALLY was the only one in our area standing with the ministry or doing anything for God.....now mind you there are people with 20 years of faithfull service to twi...many of us with a decade and more....you would think that this would rate a phone call to the lc to check out the nut`s veracity.....but oh heck no...craig just sees red and calls all of the tc`s and tells em that they are no longer associated with the way and must cease running fellowships immediatly. It was very eye opening to see how spiritually inept that the president of our ministry was....Really scarey...it dawned on us that if he had had ANY discernment abilities or even half a brain...he would have surely seen what a conniving bu tt kissing little weazle that this guy was....this creep was the type that gave most people the creepy crawlies anyway.....but hey so as long as he stroked craigs fragile ego.....snort I guess that would be an indicator of some of the crazy behavior that he exhibited post pop....booting out faithfull people on a whim..... Everything else was kept hush hush on the field...we were given to understand that the problems were being addressed at hq and we were to continue in prayer and believing to support the ministry....most of us did so.

In hind sight, it almost appears as if it was nothing more than something as juvenile as a ....ing match. I agree with MarkO about it being a catalyst to show the insanity....and not just the letter...but one single LINE of that letter.....*and don`t give me any of that standing with God crap* That single unfortunate phrase was what finally awoke many of us....and we would have put up with almost anything in order to fight for the ministry...... Excathedra, I agree it was one nut job that outed another.....the big nut job was the only one that was clever enough to keep us all placated so that we could continued to slumber blythly unaware ....... It would have taken so very little to have kept us committed sold out douloses.... you had to practically drive us away with a stick.

Excellent!!!! I am astounded that not only did disney follow the story faithfully....They did something very rare....the movie actually exceded my vivid imagination :P Being Disney, I did not expect them to faithfully present it as the christian epic .... the allegory that it was intended to be....sigh The Characters were perfectly done.....the animals voices perfect. The wolves were terrifying..the queen chilling...Aslan awe inspiring. Heck I knew the story and jumped outta my skin a time or two....even shed a tear when Aslan was sacraficed. A must see....my kiddoes one and all resisted going...declairing it *not their type of movie*......one and all they acclaimed it to be superb... My 5 yr old.....the last thing she murmered in my ear last night as she dropped off to sleep hours after seeing it was to sigh yet again with contment and sleepily exclaim...that was a GREAT movie...thanks mom :)

My kids have told me that they will see to it that I am buried in my karate ghi with the name *Rascal* on my marker :)

I was speaking to my husband about our friends death.....and it dawned on me ...even with the BEST of intentions.....just how ill equipped that we were to deal with depression and suicide. As spiritual leaders....we should have known how to deal with these issues.....we should have been educated if we wre going to take on the roles of spiritual councelors........be able to recognise the signes of impending suicide. When our friend was in trouble....we simply went over and helped him get his house work caught up...helped him with his boys....helped him in any way we could...... At times he tried to share how weak and worthless he was...we had no idea that he was so tortured by the black darkness ........ .we of course vigorously denied this....thought that we were doing the right thing by jut praying for him....loving him...... After a few weeks.....He one day changed....became peacefull...everyone of course congratulated him on finally bouncing out of his funk.....he asked us to help us get his house in order....that day he kept trying to give his stuff to us.....we declined...not understanding.... As an aside....I was just discussing this post with my spouse.....and he said something pretty waybrained....even after all of these years....*well I believe that God kept those intentions away from us*.... Well geez....maybe not....you see....we couldn`t accept that our tc, mark`s corpes brother was weak or posessed....the ONLY situation in which suicide would have been an issue.......we were woefully ignorant of how depression works..... I just told him...that throughout that week..... I felt a panic...an urgency....close to panic......I daily asked my husband to contact our friend....I was so upset...I called my lc even and asked him to contact our friend......but being a woman and meerly corpes spouse....I was of course blown off and dismissed as being overly emotional..... Our friend after we helped him get his physicals together....delivered his kids to his spouse and then blew his own brains out. Here is the really sick part.....our friend immediatly went from respected tc...Son of God ...to dishonor....We all faced questions as to why couldn`t we detect the devil spirits? we weren`t supposed to go to the funeral......we were asked to help clean the house out with the wife whom had left.....everyone pretended like our buddy never existed....there was no remorse..........just an unspoken condemnation for our friends weakness. Nobody....not my corpes husband, not our state coordinator had been equipped to help this man at his darkest hour......suicide was unthinkable because it involved becoming posessed.....we were woefully ignorant....yet we held peoples lives in the palms of our hands..... The man lost all respect and honor....he was viewed as posessed and weak...... We are the ones who should be ashamed for presuming to be leaders and authorities.....WE let him down when he needed us most....engulfed in that bottomless pit of dispair..... I named my first born son whom I was carrying at the time after this man because I felt someone somewhere needed to honor this man and his life....somebody needed to remember him as he honestly was.

Visciously drive someone to the point of feeling that their life is so worthless ...that there is no option.......that the one figures that they are honestly doing God and the body of Christ a favor by ridding the world of your dangerous disgusting presence.......these poor souls who feel there is no other option....is given no other option.......die....and then these leaders ... these guys whom we trusted with our lives.... then turn around......blame the one that they savagely wounded......accuse them...shift the blame entirely away from themselves vile monsters who deprived folks of everything of meaning in life...... Fill them so full of self loathing and shame.....back your actions up with scriptures.....justify your cruelty....utilise your authority as a representative of God almighty... Remembering my black despair .... I feel such deep compassion for Tom, for Rochelle, for Steve....I feel so bad that they died in the bleakness that twi created.

Oh dear (((Dot))) how horrble for you. ((((Excathedra)))) yet another reason to love you....Even though being there in the corpes was terrible for you.....I am so glad that you were there for dot.... Dot what you went through was So horrible.....She probably hoped that she could drive you to suicide ...one more little mess cleaned up :( I too was savaged by a corpes bi tch to the point where I seriously contemplated suicide. I was very young.....and declaired posessed by my witch tc`s wife......I numbly packed my car ....left my home and furniture to them...I stopped at the red river bridge and came within an eyelash of driving myself in. I left in such shame and condemnation...in a matter of an hour ....I somehow I missed my cambridge bible....my most treasured posession....the tc `s wife victoriously declaired that it was PROOF of her evaluation....because we all know that only a posessed person would forget their bible....that was proof of where my heart was.......she immediatly gave it away. I was so crushed that I could become posessed and not even know it...or how/when it had happened....I had done everything that my leaders had recomended since becoming involved....given my all to serve God in any way I could....... I was so ashamed that I didn`t know how to rid myself of the devil spirits that had somehow taken up residence in me.........I was mortified that the people who had loved and nurtured me would find out what I had unknowingly allowed to happen.....and worst of all....I didn`t dare have contact with my beloved brothers and sisters in Christ because I risked contaminating them with my evil :( If I close my eyes...I can remember the cold sickening shame....the utter loathing of myself......the complete worthlesness....the unworthiness to draw breath....because I harbored a secret evil...a disease that would contaminate those that i loved the most. I went back to my home town to my natural family....an action that I was told would result in my spiritual death..to be soon followed by my physical death. I couldn`t stand myself...I couldn`t look in the morror because I made MYSELF sick.....I couldn`t tell anybody what was wrong....I couldn`t talk to God I was too depraved.....In spite of his goodness...I was posessed. Dot I can so identify with being numb...non responsive. I didn`t have anyone like ex to counter the damage, there was no one to hold me and tell me that the tc`s wife could have been wrong....... Damned right I almost committed suicide....but it wasn`t because I was posessed, or that I was weak.....it was because one witch on a bad day had vindictively deprived me of everything that was of importance......my self worth, my self respect, fellowship with the rest of the body of Christ....fellowship with God..... I was still a teenager for God`s sake.....one that would have done anything for God and his ministry. Sometimes though, as I have said before.....when things are the blackest....God has to preform the greatest miracles to get our attention...... For years...I just thought it was her.....but I see now that the savaging of people`s reputations....the vindictive destruction of their souls was practiced all through the ministry. It was just an interim corpes woman who inflicted this wound ....it was damned near fatal as it were....how much worse to have been inflicted and supported by state officials...all the way up the way tree latter to vp himself... What a vile group of people....

Toad friend, do you think that your rancor with the peelers over past issues might have clouded your judgement on this lawsuit issue? If there were anyway I could recoup my losses to twi I would do so as well. They were not what they represented themselves to be. The money they required from me on God`s behalf was used for awfull purposes...... I would rather anybody else had that money. I think that it takes someone educated to be able to recognise the illegality of what was endured in twi, and to know what legal recourses are available. I think that it takes someone with courage to face down twi and their horrible attornies. When asked ... I didn`t have the guts.

I will be at one of the bigger parties in the county....lol my family makes a pretty good sized group all by ourselves....We will have soda and pop corn ......watch movies and cuddle....I will probably peek in here at gspot to see if there is anyone to ring in the new year with. I have never been to a real new years party....sigh Tomorrow my daughter and son and I will be taking our horses to a *play day*. It is an effort to begin the new year right with our intention to spend more time training with our friends. There will be at least a couple dozen of us there with our *equine* children.... :D

It sounds like you at hq were no better aprised of the situation than we were....... I am sorry that you were not treated as kindly as we were just loafing....I think that the incredibly generous local believers of the Kansas limb were the ONLY thing that made that awfull year bearable. I will never forget the many kindnesses shown.... Groucho it was all very strange and subdued....wasn`t it? All of the questions we were not allowed to ask....all of the luster seemed to have gone out of the ministry....I was so hurt that the forces hadn`t been rallied around to pray for a miracle....we were not even asked....does that not say something about where hq`s believing/faith in our doctrine was? Geeeeze they didn`t even think enough of prayer or our believing or God`s ability to preform miracles .... to even give us to give it a shot on an international level? Look at the effort rallied to save howard allens worthless tail....would not wierwille have deserved the same consideration? What about don w? I don`t think anybody in charge at hq could have had any faith at this point. Wordwolf I am sorry if I went to far by going into roa 86 ...the years were never numerical for me but from rock to rock.........maybe you wanted a seperate thread for pop and roa 86......if you want to remove and paste this where apropriate please feel free.

The wow that year had a double whammy....vp`s death and memorial at their outgoing roa and pop at their homecoming roa.....it was really a bleak year that I occasionally still have nightmares about. I dunno how it compares with other years.....but I went out before in 79/80 and there was an entirely different flavor...a sense of adventure .... of zest of accomplishment.....enthusiasm. This time the feelings were of unutterable weariness and failure. I get down just thinking about it. Maybe it was just me though.

I wanted to break between the believers goodness and the roa at the end of the year. Though technically I am going into 86 now........ Our LC after being incredibly kind and involved during the year was invited to hq in the spring to become part of the bot so we were kind of lost in all of the hullibaloo..... We never heard from him after the spring....but didn`t begrudge his attention to the more important greater good of the ministry.....however we did feel quite forgotten and unimportant....there were only 8 wows left in the entire limb..... POP was read at corpes week, unbeknownst to us....so we arive feeling like we had accomplished something having survived what everybody agreed was the most cruel and difficult year of our lives....we arrived battle weary and war torn...expecting to be treated as returning heroes.....snort people could have cared less....we didn`t know about pop....that the ministry was self destructing before our very eyes.....we just knew that NOBODY cared. The victorious march into the big top was a sad afair....everybody elses lc was marching with them...proudly holding up their state signes eagerly showing off their wows.... and honored to be doing the actual pinning on *their* returning wows. We had at least hoped to get a *well done from SOMEBODY :( Even a note or the lc`s wifes presence would have been nice...some kind of small acknowledgement of what we had suffered....of the pain we had endured....of the struggle it had been to remain faithfull.... We were sadly alone ..... our lc obviously too busy with the things of the ministry couldn`t be bothered for an hour to pin *his* wows....we had to pin ourselves...I felt so lonely...so alone....we all looked at each other....utterly weary...utterly gratefull that the long night mare was over....there was no feeling of victory or pride this time. Roa was so so cold people wandering around in mute shock....the believers who had arrived ...ignorant of pop were so puzzled...no warmth no bless you`s...just mechanical going through the motions by 90 per cent of the people there. My bc pulled me aside before the end of roa and warned me that going into residence at this time just wasn`t a very good idea untill the dust settled and it was figured out which direction the ministry was headed.

When we got on the wow field.....there were no *bless* notes from lcm. The first time I went wow....we got letters of encouragement from vp....a tape to listen to....the tape was wonderfull a prayer of exhortation and then songs of healing......seemed like the ministry was behind us..... Now we did hear from lcm at Christmas.....there was a video ...and we were given the most beautifull wow mugs....real pretty classy mugs with gold trim..... full of hot chocolate to drink while we listened to him on the video and he had a matching one. As much as I detest saying anything nice about lcm.....lol....it was very special. The believers from all over our limb bless their hearts all gave wonderfull wonderfull generous gifts and our lc handed them out in giant 3 or 4 ft long stockings filled to the top.....dressed up like santa clause.....(we cried) our year had been so heartbreakingly difficult up to this point....it was the first time we had felt like someone cared......to this day it was the most memorable ...the most moving outpouring of Christmas generocity that I have ever experienced....I am tearing up just rememberinghow it ministered to our battered souls.....thank you dear believers of the Kansas limb :)

It sure doesn`t speak well for Christianity does it? The way I see it....either we didn`t understand what it was to be genuine christian.....or our God and religion is messed up.....I choose to place the blame on the guys who assumed that knowledge would bring them spirituality :( I think that is why *fruit* is a big issue .... there are plenty who claim to be christian....yet are very manipulative and cruel....a direct antithesis to Jesus and everything that he taught.....and then there are those who don`t know or acknowledge the name of Jesus but are doing what he taught....*Love God and Love your neighbor....like the father and the two sons in the bible ...one said he was gonna do what he was supposed to ....the other said he wasn`t but did the job anyway........you had one that looked like they were obedient....and ine who was......you tell me which is doing the will of God?