rascal

Gosh darn it, I am SO happy for you guys :)

I cannot address roa after 87 because that is when I started popping out children....I was always too preggers each aug to be allowed to attend.....they had started getting stricter with whom they allowed to attend. All of my input from here on out will be from a local level. We moved to my former home state and began twig with a man I had known and worked with since my first wow year a decade previously. We had stayed with the ministry but were required to listen to the galations tapes.... We were promised that all would be made clear.....I was of course a new mom...so hubby had to go ....He wasn`t at all impressed. The believers were convinced that lcm was stronger and better than ever the ministry was headed in the right direction...the past problems addressed....in short everything that we longed to hear and believe...it was safe to be lulled back to sleep. The first year.... there was a long schmoozing period where they tried to woo my spouse back.....really catered to him......tried to convince him that he was needed....that lcm was on the right track....yadda yadda.... Thank goodness, he politely refused...simply asked to be allowed to attend fellowship.....he was carefull not to give them any ammunition to use against us.....but at the time....I was mortified because in refusing to accept new assignment or swear feality to lcm.... we were BOTH branded as spiritual losers. I was agahst ..... even though I was still committed come hell or high water.... I was a loser....spiritually weak...yadda yadda....after decades of faithfull service on many levels...multiple wow years....corpes...you name it between the two of us........after being doulos in every meaning of the word....doing everything requested...following every directive,,,,believing that implicit obediance was the key to spirituality.....we were now lower than the rankest of unbelievers.... I BEGGED my spouse to reconsider.....the ministry needed us ....I was terrified of the repercussions of not obeying leadership.....ashamed to be relegated to a status lower than that of the rankest unbeliever....deeply ashamed. We tried to go to fellowship and stay involved but after that first year.... the believers steadily became rude....very cold....more mistrustfull...it was like they were deliberatly trying to make us leave.... We were tolerated.... but I noticed that nobody wanted to sit by me.... The twig would make plans....but I was not invited..... I was viewed as suspicious....many felt sorry for me... knowing that I was stuck with my spouses choices...but still ditanced themselves. I could tell that many found it hard to be mean...and would occasionally slip abd start talking to me....... My feelings were so hurt, I was so bewildered by the growing coolness of people whom I had known and cared deeply about for for over a decade :( I didn`t understand what was happening to these formerly loving, joyfull, spirit filled people....It was like I was standing on the sidelines watching a slow motion train wreck.....they became sullen....if I went up to the tc...he would turn his back on me and deliberatly begin a conversation with someone else :( If I had a problem...it was viewed as my fault because my husband was blowing it....what good would prayer do if I was out of fellowship because of hubby`s lack of commitment? The tc actually began to seath in my presence...I could tell that my very presence was driving him to the breaking point.....his jaw would lock his teeth grit...eyes cold as he would stare right past me. We couldn`t attend roa or limb functions because of the infants and continued pregnancies....that is the only reason that I can figure out that we were not affected.....I just know that the local fellowship was moving in a direction that I couldn`t follow....no matter how hard I tried....the old rules just didn`t apply any more....I KNEW that I was the same person...I KNEW that God still cared about me.... but that didn`t change the fellowship from viewing me as a stench in the nostrills of God and being entirely offended with my presence.

I too believed in the *commitment*... never contemplated divorce.... sigh the problem with this is....that even though we DO work through the tough times because of having had this mind set........the reality is.... though we have remained married because of this ..... it seems like we have spent almost 20 years tolerating each other at best and driving each other nuts at worst...... In truth, I do not think that there is anything really drastically wrong with either one of us....but life would have been much more enjoyable had we been with people that enjoyed/valued/wanted to persue the same things in life. I wonder what would have happened if divorce had been an allowable consideration before we were commtted to raising these kiddoes.... Maybe we both would have found someone that we truly enjoyed being with. I am kind of envious of you guys who were able to recognise a bad fit and take action early, before there were children to consider. As it is.... I know that there are 12 yrs 3 months....so many weeks.....lol untill the last child turns 18 and I gain the freedom to do as *I* please. <_<

DJS, You show some real honesty and courage in continuing to talk with us..... your actions here show that you really are trying to be genuinly caring. I can respect you for that. You seem like a person of integrety......have you considered what will happen when folks who are attracted to twi or stay involved because they see how great you and your husband are.....have you considered how it will be when they leave your sphere of influence? Are they going to assume that all of twi is going to treat them with the honesty and caring that you do? Is that fair to let people assume that twi as an organization is healthy spiritually ...basing their perceptions on what they see in your lives.....when you know that the top leadership are corrupt and that you are simply waiting for them to die off? Are there more corrupt people in line for the positions waiting for their turn at the helm? What I am trying to say...and not any to tactfully...... is that you must consider that your integrety and love for God are what people see when they see twi..... as they become deeper involved....are they going to be bullied? are they going to be hurt? are they going to be exposed to the corrupt leaders? I see in you what we were 15 years ago...honest and caring fighting for our ministry, loving people teaching the bible......problem was that the people that we *ministered* to, ended up being deeply hurt further down the line....people trusted twi and its leaders to be Godly and honorable and were deeply wounded.......because they trusted us...... You must consider what your lives, what your love and character are covering for....no matter how good your intentions....Even though you personally are Godly and your efforts selfless........you are introducing people to a group who`s current leaders are not :(

We all did mex.... we were never allowed to speak to anyone who had been hurt because they were forced out of twi ........ We were taught that anyone who spoke against the ministry had been possessed .... We were fooled :( As hard as it is to come to grips with, it is better to know the truth than live a lie.

Sigh....We were all so intense...took our lifetime commitment and personal integrety all so seriously....We were so proud of our spirituality, our integrety as christian doulos` so anxious to present God tp folks....I wonder if these guys laughed at us for our gullibility :( They certainly didn`t care who was destroyed....just shrugged their shoulders and moved on.... I wonder....Do you guys think that folks were predisposed to be this way before becoming involved and that twi/ vpw simply fascilitated their sickness....or do you think that long time association with twi/vpw developed this in people? I don`t know it seems like many folks were able to stay wonderfull and caring through out their twi involvement. Further...do you think it was mental illness/defect involved or evil such as the bible speaks of ....or a combination of both? Just trying to put all of the pieces together here.

Welcome LIV, I still have dreams about hq. I only spent roa there every year, and with just the yearly visits.... I have fond memories , so I understand having grown up there why it would be so special to you. It was the only place that was a constant in my life for almost 15 years....it was where I met my friends every year, people that I loved as family that I never saw otherwise......hq seemed like a magical enchanted place....the center of my universe :)

OHHHH GEEEEEZE Oak...I cannot BELIEVE the friggin liberties that they took with you guys...omg I mean yeah they were anal about it when I was involved....but it was more of a ...*if you want to be spiritual* you will have these things in order. I managed to keep everything in order untill the third child was born in under 4 years....then I lost all handle on decent and in order. It got so bad.... my husband thought that I was a slovenly pig and loved it. It took years to get that stupidity out of our heads.....We finally realised that I could either raise the children or I could keep the house to show room standard......there weren`t enough hours in the day for both.... We compromise...gave him a little area that was off limits to the kids and their clutter...... NOW have a moble home out behind the house he has an office and room out there and he can be as neat and orderly as he pleases.... he can go out there to recover when the mess and disorder of the main house get to be more than he can deal with...lol it is a win win situation. The way I see it.....There will be PLENTY of time to keep the house compulsively neat after the children are gone.... but untill then I will continue to allowing the premepting of the vaccuming or dishes or laundry by requests to hunt crayfish, or read a story, hunt fossels, or go swimming whenever the oportunity arises.....I won`t always be getting these invitations..... There will be plenty of time to catch up on housework then :)

The steel roofs are the best.....my husband is a contractor and anybody who can afford to.... go with them. Your potential new home sound lovely.....good luck!

Which probably won`t be long without us bringing it in....

ROFL that example reminds me of a funny.... I was at the lc`s house....(when I was a wow and had gotten myself into a HUGE amount of trouble) there were three of us talking in the kitchen.... I was asked to take the sweet n low outta the bag and place it in a jar.....well first I just dumped it all in.....but we were having a lot of fun just yacking...and out of pure boredom...I started turning and sorting all of the packets so that they were right side up facing in the same direction in the bottom of the jar....when I finally handed the jar back .....the lc`s wife exclaimed with delight that with THAT kind of attention to detail...I was definatly corpes material and not to worry but that I was going to do very well It was a really sweet thing to say because I was having such a hard time believing that I was worthey to walk the face of the planet....and breath the air.....much less attempt to be in the corpes as one of God`s spiritually elite.....maybe she was just trying to help me feel better..... I was amazed that the position of the sweet n low packets was such a big deal....I sweat bullets and was nearly ill with the knowledge of how close I had come to ALMOST blowing it all by simply dumping them in to begin with ....and devoutly hoped that nobody would ever find out.....hee hee. I prayed many a fervant prayer of thanksgiving on the way back to my area that day..... :)

Dot that was gentle and gracious...so very well said..... Ditto what Cat and watered garden said. Thank you dot and excathedra. It is meaningfull to read of your continued relationship ... that the darkness of twi could not eliminate the light of God`s love in spite of what you have endured. Dooj, a very apropriate annalogy. That poor wife, I feel so sorry for her being trapped with that man...you know that there must have been an enormous amount of pressure....if she wanted to leave....the ministry would have sided with her ordained husband of course.......she would have been evil and posessed.

Hey wwjl...great to see you again! Glad that you are enjoying yourself....please say hi to your buddy I personally don`t have much of a problem with it if there are no children involved..... I have been married for almost 20 years .... I agree with George....I probably would never do it again. The one thing about being married, I think that if you have made that commitment to be together....generally folks work a lot harder to make it work...ie a divorce is a hell of a lot more trouble than just splitting up. But sometimes trying to stick it out because of the commitment of a marriage work is like your trying to make the wrong shoe fit that just simply wasn`t ever your size to begin with. People tend to give you and your relationship more respect if you are married rather than if you are just shacking up...there are going to be people that are offended....if that bothers you or you want to participate in church etc....they tend to be prickly about things because you are viewed setting an example... My Dad moved his sweety in after dating for three months...everybody was scandalized... but they married about a year later....and they are blissfully happy... You know, your sweety has been married, been there done that.....if you move in with him....the odds are YOU will not be getting married....if you are tied up with him....you are not likely to find someone whom would marry you......Is that fair to you? Is it important? Do you want a wedding day? A once in a life time celebration of having found your soul mate with your friends and family? Or do you want a roomate that is interchangeable when one of you gets bored or a little testy about the way the tooth paste is squeezed? I guess in spite of what I said.....I am a traditional type of gal...I know that I view people who are married a little differently than people living together.....it appears to me as if you are saying yeah...I like you well enough to be friends...but I am not quite sure I`d want to be stuck with you for the rest of my life....lol The relationships in my mind are different in my mind....where do you want to see yourself in 5 years? Me personally, if I liked someone well enough to live with them 24/7 ..I would want to be sure enough about each other to make that commitment....and that takes time....LOTS of time to get to know them well enough to be sure....I think the temptation to move in sometimes rushes that process .... possibly involving several years before you realise that it was never going to develope into what you wanted to begin with.....jmho Where as taking the time required and putting forth the effort required in the first place, to be perfectly sure that this is a good fit....though more painstaking ... is I think that it is well worth effort. I guess that it would all boil down to do you want to be married? Or are you simply lonely and want company? No right or wrong answere here....just how I define it in my mind.... and keep in mind this comes from someone who hasn`t been single in over 20 years so what the hell do I know about it? You cannot judge marriage by mine either as it was one of those *any two believers can make it work* type of deals and by the time we left twi and realized just how incompatible we were lol....we had a family to raise....which has rewards of it`s own. Again, no right or wrong answere...just what you personally want in life (((wwjla))) dear :)

Oh yeah I had forgotten about the ralph n john days... Not ONLY were we told not to go.... we were told that not under ANY circumstances were we to even speak to anyone who HAD gone to the meeting when they were in the area......because they had probably become posesssed at the meeting. What rediculous claims....though it wasn`t the first time that threat was successfully used to keep us from finding stuff out. I cannot believe that we were so frail that we believed just talking to someone would get us posessed.....people from our area went....we mourned their loss to the body. I wish that we had listened then.... we would have been out 5 yrs sooner. Another thing I remember the super bowl in jan 86 or 87 I believe ...it was a biggie because the patriots were playing ..... we just knew that they had to win with a believer on the team....we all had super bowl parties....couldn`t believe that the pats lost with all of our *believing*....

My dogs have been eating the diamond brand off and on for over three months gasp :o As of yet.....they don`t seem to be showing any adverse effects, thank goodness ... guess I we must have dodged a bullet. Those poor poor dogs nothing to eat but poison...not to mention all of the vet bills and heartbreak for the owners.

I dunno.....the *word* that was once shared....certainly isn`t what the *last limb* of twi is teaching these days is it? Maybe I am mistaken, but it was my impressions that all of that was old wineskins...replaced with lcm`s newer better revelations... Skyrider....I remember those days....the feeling of being important and needed in the spiritual battle....being on the front lines striking a blow against darkness for God almighty..... God loved me...being a part of the roughest toughest spiritual fighting force on the planet....satan trembled and fled when we marched into town.....sigh I loved who I thought that we were.

I guess that you are right catcup....they really did seem to believe what they were selling. But I wonder....if they believed it....if they believed that they were doing God`s will.....why did they so savage the lives and reputations of those that dissapointed them? Why did they try to hurt people to the fullest extention of their power and influence? I do not understand how they could figure that this would be a Godly or beneficial thing. It takes something broken on the inside to want to hurt people like that....imo

I don`t know what *normal* is.....but I certainly don`t understand NOT being deeply offended and disgusted by these accounts here <_< In back tracking, I don`t really see any difference in my posts and those of other people offended by these predators .......but somehow I seem to consistantly draw your fire....some times to the point of derailing some really good threads.... I will refrain from further comments to you about your feelings about me.....because this thread simply isn`t about us.....feel free to pm me if you want to continue and I will attempt to address your concerns about my spirituality and well being there where it is more appropriate.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh FLASH chat....I see it now d`oh :P

How do we get into the new chat now? Is it out? The button at the top of the page takes me into the old room....am I missing the button to the new room? Help :(

Catcup.....I do not think that they believed this....I think that they were classic predators.....always blaming the victim...always making them feel like it was somehow their fault. This was just cover up schpiel in my mind......they were dark evil people :(

....sooooo good old uncle harry just wanted to bless HER....he simply wanted HER to feel like a woman.....it`s all HER fault that she wasn`t mature enough to accept the blessing that a man of God so generously bestowed...Bless his poor misunderstood heart .... shame on that girl for thinking evil of a man so incredibly generous :( ick ick ICK ........ I see it all so clearly now ....what is WRONG with us?

Agreed MarkO These people betrayed us ALL...even if we weren`t directly assaulted personally....even though we persanally were not driven to the point of suicide.....maybe not broken beyond repair.....twi leaders were DOING this to OUR innocent brothers and sisters unbeknownst to us with OUR support and living off of OUR contributions...their fresh new recruits supplied by OUR outreach and undershepherding.....we unknowingly led the victims to the slaughter Their appearance at legitimacy and spiritual Godliness was provided entirely by OUR bible teachings OUR appearance of good character.....OUR integrety.... They hijacked peoples lives and even peoples ministries .... people who simply wanted to make a difference for God in this world.....and maliciously decieved them into promoting and supporting a very evil harmfull group... They have betrayed EACH and every one ofUS...you and me.....anyone who ever presented scriptures to people desiring to help.....any of us who participated in or enrolled people in classes promising them all the answeres to life and Godliness.....anyone who ever invited people to fellowships or twi functions in good faith..... or ever supported twi financially....we did so under the belief that we were benefitting God and people.....we unkowingly provided the perfect camolflauge with our youthfull innocence for evil to reign unchecked. I dearly hope that there is to be a reckoning someday....I hope that there really IS a God and that there will be justice someday.... I hope to HELL that we were taught in twi was wrong and that these people....these wolves ...false prophets are not going to slide by in the afterlife due to technicalities.

Dot, that is awfull.... they were supposed to help us.....how many deeply hurt people are sentanced to struggling through the rest of this life ..... forever changed because of contact with these creeps? What POSSIBLE good could anybody have recieved to be considered worth the damage that was so casually inflicted on believers? Not only was damage inflicted in order for the sick lusts to be satisfied..... but active seeking to inflict as much damage as possible for failure to satisfy the requirements....if you dissapointed them...they were gonna mess you up....and they were going to make darned sure that you didn`t let their dirty little secret outta the bag.

...and folks are suprised that there were mental break downs and suicides with this kind of pressure???? These leaders were supposed to help us get closer to God.....our hearts desire was to learn how to be the best servant that we could be for God....to dedicate our lives in service to him.......and these people....these wolves TOOK that and they USED that to steal that which they were in no way entitled to, nor would they have ever gotten. How anyone can see an ounce of wholesomness or Godliness in these criminal perverts is beyond me :( They USED God and the scriptures to steal kill and destroy pure and simple