rascal

Welcome to freedom Seeker! It is a wonderfull adventure that you are now embarked upon :)

Awww Abby n I as always LOVED the clydesdales.....also thought the Fabio commercial was hysterical :) the look of horror on the gals face.....kiss kiss grrRRRRrrr ....... ROFLMAO! Guess I have a strange sense of humor :)

TOO funnt Shell :lol: SUnesis... I am in the process of reading those recomended passages.

Well, I have 4 teenagers this year and have wrestled with sexual issues.... The problem is....there are a whole lot of really nasty diseases out there., and it doesn`t take someone being promiscuos to catch them. My daughters best friend in karate has had a single boy friend since she was 13 ..... ONE guy...and her parents found out not too long ago that he had given their daughter then 17a raging herpies infection. This is what one would consider a GOOD kid :( The big deal in THESE parts is all of the white teenaged girls want to have babies with black boys. Most don`t seem to have racial issues here......but because it was what was considered taboo in the past.....they seem to enjoy the shock factor ....I see so many of them at a particular shopping center showing off their kids....many of them look to be no older than 13. I am sad for the children ....sometimes screaming in discomfort in the strollers while mama tunes em out to discuss the newest earrings in the window. It is a real status symbol thing ...to have a child before leaving high school. I think personally that these kids are no different than the generations before them...some how searching for their own identity....a way to define themselves as being better, cooler, more hip than the last generation.....it`s just that todays rebellion can bring some pretty sad consequences. My teens watched their friend struggle with meds and a catheter bag ... and have been privy to all of the graphic details....knowing that she has it for life....They are so freaked out, at present, I don`t think they believe they EVER want to have sex....

dek, I am sorry, that is incredibly cruel treatment. How painfull to be ignored....feared ...suspected by the people one cared the most about.

I get about one of those scam letters a week. Always some American has died....you are the closest known family member....the bank is going to get the huge inheritance..... This is the first time I have seen the *charity* one though.

I am just stunned by the implications ....

Loafing, I personally believe that with lcm that it wasn`t ever about the money but rather power and an insane need to control. He only wanted those who offered him implicit obediance.

Damn...I was just struck by an unbelievable thought..... What IF....our suspicions are correct? ....Gosh would that then explain the complete and utter contempt that vpw and top twi leaders held fellow Christians and other churches? Could it be that in teaching us to have such contempt and lack of respect ....that they were in fact able to effectively draw us away from God? What if we are condemned to a life time *outside* of the body of Christ because we cannot overcome our conditioned lack of respect with which we were taught to view churches and fellow Christians pov`s ? I think that this could be an extremely important point in understanding why there were such marked contradictions in our experiences in twi. Thank you for the scripture David.

Sunesis, that is the only thing that makes any sense to me :( There is a scripture saying something to the effect of *how can you say that you love God whom you cannot see when you do not love these whom you can? Top leaders in twi were many times quite cruel in their treatment of us...some of their actions life altering devistating to innocent souls.... These are not the actions of people working for God..... I think that we thought we were....but I begin to feel as if rather than getting closer, we were being drawn away.....thinking that our knowledge was going to make us spiritual.

The phrase *ever searching but never coming to a knowledge of the truth* comes to mind in this case. Some of our leaders were probably very earnest in their believing that biblical research was the key to becoming spiritual. To me this smacks of works...something that we are trying to do ourselves....operating keys and principles taking classes....rather than the genuine life altering change within that the new birth and introduction of holy spirit is supposed to be. Again, I think that the presence of fruit is a direct representative of what is inside.....something that we can see and thereby identify genuine fellow Christians. I earnestly want to be a genuine christian ... not simply making excuse for why there is not fruit evidenced in my life. I don`t want to confuse the new birth and consequent growth..... with doing works with a view to based on spiritual growth. It seems like from my first introduction to twi....Growing with God was always based on fullfilling some requirement... *take this class* to grow with God *Go out wow* to grow with God *Live in a way home* to grow with God... *Take the advanced class* to grow with God.... *Go into the way corpes* to grow with God.... *Witness* *Tithe* *Fellowship* ....all things that WE did thinking that this in and of itself would increase our in depth spiritual perception and awareness..... We have recited Romans 10:9 &10 and are going to heaven and all hell cannot prevent us no matter how we behave.... Counter this with seemingly instantanious changes in folks upon the new birth ....where drugs and drinking and harmfull behavior lose their appeal......their behavior changes from something that has happened within them. I have a feeling that you may very well be right Sunesis. :( What worries me is how many of us continue to follow this possibly faulty formula.... will be told to *depart for he knew us not* ....

See I cannot imagine personally enjoying rape fornication drunkeness...destroying fellow christians etc....To me it seems that something is wrong with someone who habitually indulges in those behaviors... imo .......something missing inside ...I just wonder if rather than being a personality flaw or bad choices.....it could be an absence of Holy Spirit. I don`t think people have these issues when they are *of the spirit* or we wouldn`t be given specific lists of behaviors of those who were and who were not.....

Then again...maybe I am just looking for an excuse to justify my deep disgust with these people who wrought such damage. Maybe I am simply looking for an excuse to be unforgiving which isn`t right either.... Just honestly struggeling with my responsibility if I am indeed to claim to be a Christian myself....I know that there was a marked difference in the way Jesus treated the woman caught in adultery and the way he treated the pharacees and money changers...or those who would hurt a child :( Is there a difference between old testament and new concerning acceptable standards for treatment of one another? A difference between new birth and natural man.....sonship and servant? A difference between genuine new birth and counterfit?

I guess what has the light bulbs going off for me is finally understanding that if it is as we were taught.....what was acceptible and understandible behavior for Saul and David and Paul as natural men...servants .... would not necessarily be acceptible and forgivable behavior in one born again Christian.....a supposed son of God. I think that is why fruit manifested must be such a big deal...it tells us EXACTLY what is on the inside...in spite of what the person claims to be. I can understand now how we could have had both very kind loving leaders whom ministered to the people in their fellowships and yet other leaders in the very same organization who were very cruel seemingly without conscience ...who were enormously destructive to the people that they were supposed to minister to. I think that it may be the difference between living with the genuine new birth and living as a natural man/servant. One expects more of a son or daughter that has access to the father verses a servant whom just recieves marching orders with no real understanding or communication.

When I was posting on the m&a thread...I was struck by a thought.... So many times I am trying to understand and reconcile the sins of twi leaders and whether or not they are our christian brothers who stumbled and consequently are in need our love and forgiveness .... or rather false prophets, wolves in sheeps clothing....folks whom need to be avoided and whom should be soundly condemned....someone against whom we are to guard and protect each other. The justification for continued respect and forgiveness of these people is invariably that Saul and David did really rotten stuff but were still ok in God`s book......that Paul killed Christians before becoming a Christian...etc What I couldn`t reconcile is the fruit aspect....Christians that I now know after leaving twi ... just automatically start manifesting the fruit of the spirit listed in Galatians when they begin life as a Christian.........apparently because when they are born again...they are changed on the inside....it isn`t something we strive to do.....it is simply what we either are or are not. You know .... how we are supposed to recognise one another. So here we have these terribly destructive folks who claim to be Christians with a vast knowledge of the scriptures.....yet are at times visciously destructive.....we need to cut em some slack because God forgave David and Saul....so we just need to forgive twi leaders and move on....problem is...those are contradictory to the instructions given scripturally for guys who behave like our leaders did. It just now dawned on me .(maybe I AM a little slow lol) ......that THESE guys (Saul and David, and Paul before the new birth) were not born again....THESE guys were in the old testament....THESE guys were held to a completely different standard than the Christians.... these guys were considered natural man/servants by twi standards....they didn`t have that in spirit action action to guide them or behave as adopted sons............they were not expected to demonstrate fruit of the spirit or have it`s guidance! The new birth is supposed to have created something very different inside of us....something that dramatically changes us on the inside...something that is SO powerfull that we generally begin to exhibit fruit of the spirit as a matter of course ...we embark on a spiritual journey of growth and guidance..the old man ways hold no appeal for us.....it is so dramatic that we are to even be identified by that fruit!! What I am saying is.... that because David and Saul were good men who invariably screwed up.....are entirely different scenarios than someone who claims to be a Christian and uses the freedom in Christ as a license to sin.....egregiously harming so many of the body of Christ in the process. What is required of us as Christians concerning these two types of people are markedly different. To sum it all up...... I do not believe that these guys really understood the new birth in spite of their earnestness and knowledge of scriptures. It would explain so much....... I think that without realising it......they were living as old testament NATURAL man ... and that this is possibly why there is such a contradiction in various leaders and how the behaved while in twi.... I think we had genuine Christians and though equally as earnest ..... genuine natural men who never truly understood the walk of the spirit. As genuine Christians .there is an entirely different standard for our behavior......because we have that *in spirit action* to guide us....otherwise I think that we stand the possibility of simply slapping the Christian lable on ourselves and struggle for a lifetime thinking that our scriptural knowledge is what is going to help us become those spiritual people that we long to become.

Patriot, nice post and great start for your first thread :) In answere to your question, I think that they are afraid to admit that they are fallible after so many years of demanding implicit obedience. I believe that they are concerned about legal liability as well. I believe that if twi were run by true Christians that they WOULD have repented and apologized for their misconduct and for the harm that they inflicted on innocent people...as is their biblical responsibility. As long as they pretend that these things didn`t happen....or pretend that they are not responsible.....or that we were in some way responsible for what they did to us.....they are still just pretending to be christian in MY book...a genuine Christian would repent and ask for forgiveness and where possible make amends....irrigardless of the consequences to themselves.....it is what you DO if you are a christian. Otherwise you are simply just a wannabe....just like a little kid playing religious dress up... They cloth themselves in scriptures....they wrap themselves up in prayer and wear fancy wide brimmed hats of believing ....don a ffeathery bola ...put on mommies high heels and clomp around admiring themselves in a mirror thinking that they look/are so important and grand.....but it really is all just make believe...most of the rest of us can see how silly they look as they admire and preen.

Patriots fellowship reminded me of one that we attended. We held it every thursday before karate classs.....It was really nice because we already respected one another as fellow students....it made it much easier to respect one anothers pov when it came to studying the bible with different theological back grounds. It was exciting because we invariably learned from one another .... we would study different stuff that had been found exciting by one or another of us....different books maybe a teaching video by Kenneth Copelen or Joyce Myers... It was very nice...no leader no one particular pov ....made for some suprising learning and growth.

Yeah lifted...you are probably right.... I assumed at the the time that all of twi was like that...people who simply loved God and would do literally anything for each other. I fully believed that we all were working with one accord to serve God.... I loved who I thought we were and was very proud of what I thought that we were committed to doing.

Pipes, I know that there are really good people in twi.... the problem IS.....that twi teaches otherwise very good people to do really bad things....ie pressuring sick folks for cash in order to recieve healing from GOD <_< I consider myself a fairly *good* person...earnest and genuine in my desire to help folks......yet I know that I did some terrible things because I was told that God required it of me in twi :(

Thanks pipes.... What a racket....*IF* you want healing you must tithe????? .... that sounds like friggin extortion to me. I never EVER recall Jesus asking someone to *tithe* before he healed them....I never EVER read once in the scriptures where tithing was a requirement of God for healing.....either before OR after...damn them. They are shaking vulnerable people down for cash ....dangeling to offer of restored health like some sort of damned carrot in front of them.... It really IS all about the money isn`t it? This deeply disturbs me.

That was my point wg, you had ONE poster out of several that you found unpleasant and you have flown off the handle and painted the whole rest of greasespot with your anger generated by one poster....and seem to in the process...... attacked most of the rest of the folks here. This sight isn`t about what the occasional lurking leader reads and thinks of us.....or necessarily pretending to act nice so as to not frighten away the innies....... In these forums we are here to talk ABOUT twi and it`s leadership.....You are absolutely free to talk about your good experiences....I am absolutely free to talk about the abuse suffered....Some of what occurred simply cannot be discussed in upbeat happy non negative terms....lol but never the less are important discussions to those of us wishing to participate. These forums are about FINALLY being able to discuss our side of the story period....and there is a lot of good that comes of this. You are a valued participant here Watered G, You bring something individual and unique with you when you participate.... I just wish that you would not discount the possibility that though might you find some one elses pov personally objectionable.........that they still have insight and input that is of benefit.

Watered G, could it be that you are over reacting just a smidge? There seems to be a lot more anger going on here on your part than is warrented because two posters simply made some light hearted comments...one of which has since apologised when you misunderstood their intent. You appear to be uncharicteristically touchy...... You are the one that seems to have been in attack mode....and have since drawn a little fire.... It would be a shame to lose your input here....you have valuable insight to contribute....but I suppose if you see what goes on here as nothing more than *a ceaseless attempt to villify every person who ever hurt and maimed us*...I guess that you are missing the greater good of what is/has actually being/been accomplished anyway.. For that I am sorry.

When I went to a corpes promo....I heard lcm teach that anybody who WASN`T corpes were *just a bump on the log* spiritually speaking.....(his words) He also stated uncatagorically that he refused to ever hang out with anybody who WASN`T corpes. He only wanted to be around people who were that committed to God. The rest of the body of Christ was certainly not good enough for the mog to ever *hang out* with.... Funny isn`t it? We were not worthey of the mogs presence....but he sure didn`t mind spending our money or utilizing our tallents or to utilize us as a labor force <_<

Lol thank you John, but please....I am not so far from God and peace as you might imagine.... Being a Christian does not prevent me from being revolted by absolutely reprehensible behavior. I have spoken with more than one woman who was destroyed while yet a teenager by these vile men....God doesn`t do this...nor do Godly men with the excuse that this is the grace administration. These girls were given the same promises of lifes answeres WE were .....power for abundant living....victory in any situation....more than a conquerer...but instead of fellowship and teaching and nurture....they were simply viewed as objects to be used and thrown out like so much garbage..... It was more than just attempted fornication and rape John... Some of these women...these still teenaged girls ....Two of them that I have personally communicated with.....were savagely thrown out of the ministry and alienated from their family members and friends by dire warnings given from vp and lcm of them being posessed.........John it takes a very special kind of orneriness to do something so cruel. These girls had no one to turn to by the time vp was done savaging their reputations to cover his bu tt ...... when they didn`t play along ..and THEY were the lucky ones. Please look at what this man did honestly and openly....if he were anybody other than the keeper of the keys to your truths....you would no doubt be deeply offended and disgusted as well. I WAS able to enjoy roa ... and so many many things in twi because of my naievety ....the advanced class at emporia....sound out 84 ...fabulous memorable times ALL....but but BUT could I have ...had I KNOWN what vp and lcm were doing at that very same time to my sisters? Could I have believed that God was guiding men who were capable of not only such sinfull behavior but the outright cruelty as well? Would I have trusted them or their teachings or their ministry had I known about their inner circle teachings ...about the sex and the drugs? I don`t think so. You cannot compartmentalise the evil to just one area....and just say that all of the rest of the stuff he did was ok.... You want to venerate these men as Godly .... I will continue to dispute this as I believe that their actions line them up instead as false prophets and wolves in sheeps clothing seeking whom they may devour...only worried about filling their own bellies....and as such any of their doctrine is suspect. There is so much more going on here then *bashing dead men*

That about sums up what my spouse said John. It seems to have turned on some kind of lightbulb for him. Almost entirely gone is the constant nit picking done in the guise of helping me/the kiddoes *improve* .... He has only slipped once or twice into miser mode ...... *The car is moved..... was that an absolutely necessary trip to town...Do you know how much gas is???* NAw honey, I am an absolute moron who is incapable of evaluating necessity...and make it a regular habit of indulging in entirely pointless trips with the express purpose of hitting you in your pocket book... He knows that the kiddoes each sneak our personal favorite amongst the dogs in on cold nights after he goes to sleep and pretends not to notice all of the scurrying dog paws and childrens feet when he wakes up in the morning ....lol One morning I ended up counting 6 different dogs being hustled out the back door by their different accomplices as Daddy loudly and slowly shuffled his way through the house ...giving them plenty of time to accomplish their mission and pretend he didn`t notice..... Wafer... my cynisism is beginning to lift....I am beginning to have hope in spite of myself.....lol ..