rascal

It is striking to me when I read the compassion in ex 10s posts.....the spiritual insight that rings so loudly in clays posts....the logic in word wolfs posts so irrefutable...oaks spears so very valid points ... Raf`s ability to keep posts honest just to mention a few..... So much richness and understanding of God and insight into our spiritual walk.....so many posts that just resoundingly ring bells to the depths of my being ...and yet they seem to simply bounce off of you Mike. You seem to have shut yourself off from so much that could be of assistance in attaining your goal.

Amen Chaz and Morgan, I have been to the place where immenet death held less fear for me than staying in an abusive situation. It is a horrible exixtance, it takes many years of weaing down ones self esteem and worth to get to the place where you feel you have no other option :(

Plinio, please do not worry about your english....you communicate just FINE :) ! Your argument is very eloquent, Stay strong, stay loving, for anything you say that contradicts her pov will probably be viewed as satanic influince. Your love, God`s love shining through you is what will speak volumes, more so than any scriptures or doctrinal reasoning. That she is with you after a couple of years of involvement with twi, is amazing.

I am curious....since you seem to have your finger in our faces.......why would or should I start a fellowship in your opinion ckmkeon? Seriously, is that something that God calls/rquires desires of each of us? Is that what makes one rightious and spiritual in God`s book these days? Will I be a better Christian than those who don`t run a fellowship? Will I get special blessings? I ask because I wonder if we run fellowship because God really needs us to, or because it is what we have always done and are conditioned to feel comfortable that way.

Nice try ex 10 ....sigh

THAT was beautifully and gently said ex 10. What you asked so diplomatically is something that each of us must ask of ourselves in regards to the direction we have chosen. Who/What have we made Lord in our life? Does it bring us closer to fellowship with God with Jesus and with each other? ....whew Thanks

Yes, it IS pattently obvious whom God/Daddy likes best around here

Augh..the twi teachings on marriage and a believing spouse were the most challenging problems that we faced in our relationship. I was counceled prior to our marriage to obey his every suggestion, no matter HOW outragious, because HE was the head of the household and no matter HOW wrong he was...God would cover in honor of my obediance and heart....bull sheet....that SOUNDS great on paper.....but is rediculously inefective when dealing with alcoholism or abuse or any type of foolishness..... I was allowed NO input....as anything from me was to be viewed suspiciously because I was a woman and prone to emotionalism that would negate my good judgement...possibly lead to posession..... I was taught to believe that as a woman .... that we were not to trust my feelings ane emotions because that was how satan was going to be allowed entry into our lives. Do you know how it feels to be suspicious of your every thought, emotion and idea? To have to ignore every strong feeling and emotion about foolish choices being made that were going to negatively impact my children and myself :( We were counceled and told never let the sun go down on your wrath.....that if we were mad...we needed to have sex....regardless about how we personally felt about each other at the time.....I cannot TELL you how I detested him and what God required me to do in order to be a *good* woman.....(it wasn`t a picnic for him either) but we did it because that was what was required of people who wanted a Godly marriage. Our marriage and family suffered terribly under this system....it wasn`t untill it all came crashing around our ears that I tossed it all out and started from scratch in our beliefs and responsibilities. It isn`t just twi either...... My daughters best friend turns 18 this weekend....she has been told that as a christian, she is required to be under her parents *guidance* untill she is married...and THEN she will be under the *guidance* of her husband.....in their vocabulary *guidance* is a nice sounding word for complete control. Her younger brother as a male is permitted much more freedom and oportunities .... Needless to say in her opinion ... Christianity sucks and she hates the God whom insists on her being in bondage her entire life in order to be considered virtuous. She will have to chose between her parents/God and her freedom. My heart breaks for her having to defy God almighty or wither up and die inside in order to be a good person. I am so concerned that my girls will end up marrying a Christian who`s maleness gives him absolute control over their lives with no accountability. Better they marry an unbeliever who will treat her and the children with love and respect....imo

Very well said LG.

Excathedra, you are living in their face PROOF that vpw, his version of Christianity AND his organization were deeply flawed and harmfull. They have to paint you as a liar or an exagerator in order to live with the version of spirituality that they have invested thier lives in. Either YOU or a liar or vp was..... nobody wants to have to reevalute their entire belief system and existance. Therefor YOU must be attacked personally, your veracity questioned, you made to look dishonest. your motives misrepresented and maligned...... so that folks can continue to live with themselves and their illusion of truth and spiritual superiority. This isn`t nice, it isn`t honest....matter of fact, it is down right cowardly ..... but there you go, it seems that this at times is a by product of association with vpw and twi.

Come on it`s FUNNY to a kid! Coaches do this ...college frat boys do it.... High school foot ball players do it for a gag in parades....I have seen one kid who was going to have to go to summer school given the option of preforming in drag at a school talent show in order to graduate with his class mates. He did it and ended up having a ball....lol Heck my then 13 yr old once donned a long pink glittery rapunzel wig as a gag to a holloween party....it was a riot, and he got lot of laughs. I am sure though that there was a raised eye brow or two concerning my son`s sexual issues You have to understand what makes us personally uncomfortable.... is just that personal, not always necessarily evil. I have friends who are uncomfortable with me not wearing a dress in public who`s children are not allowed to swim in mixed company even brothers and sisters...and expect their daughters to wear dresses at summer camp.... I cannot TELL you the trouble some oh so self rightious overly zealous home school mothers have made for teenagers at some of our events......with typical teen behavior....rowdiness (not much) at skating...gathering in small groups to talk and laugh...one kid draping an arm over somebodies shoulder....My God you`d a thought that they were having sex on the skating rink floor from the stink raised.....and of course....these were all women with smaller kids and no sense of what was apropriate for teens....or the apropriate way to address the teens themselves or their parents....and though the actions were entirely innocent ....these mothers made these teens out to be sex crazed offensive punks (it hurt the kids terribly because it was all innocent) My point is....this is considered funny because it is so outragious.....macho he man type coach behaving as far out of character as is thinkable. Anyone remember Joe Namath in the panty hose comercials in the 70s? If I cut my hair too short my mother is honestly concerned that I may be behaving butch or gay.....for heavens sake, anything that she is personally unconfortable with MUST be wrong. It really isn`t a big deal.

Mstar, that is very profound. People do not want to think that vpw might have been wrong....that THEY may have been wrong in the choices that they made for their lives. It is much nicer to remain safely cocooned in the belief that we were some kind of super believers with ALL the answeres ....committed Christians striking our blows against darkness for God.....that our lives had some sort of meaning...... rather than the alternative of being duped and robbed. Honest scruteny of our beliefs and wierwilles qualifications ...the acuracy of his materials is extremely threatening to folks who don`t want to have to re evalute the *truth* that they have based their lives on....the possibility that we were dead wrong in our life choices and the sacrifices we made is unthinkable.

Well no not so much disturbing, as just very sad that some folks can`t *go beyond what they have been taught* by a false prophet...

AllanW.... I can`t tell you how many times I have had nightmares over one of my children getting lost or dying....My spouse dying...even myself.....It has been nearly 18 years and my family still remains healthy and intact in SPITE of my dreams and worries

Suda, Your spouse`s dancing ability IS legendary.....lol.....as is his sense of humor and gentle kindness.

Brilliant ex 10 ! :) That was my experience as well.....also, when I quit *demanding* and instead simply began thanking God ....... my prayers/needs/blessings were often met before the words could even be formulated. In other words ...I don`t normally even have to ask.... My attitude of *believing* before reminds me of a petulant, demanding, spoiled brat of a child.

How did vixen do this weekend Belle?

It is very sad....twi teaches faulty formulas , and then has to place the blame on the person when their formulas fail. The person lives is in deep shame and condemnation for their failed believing....never suspecting that the formula is at fault. So very sad.

*good* greasespotter? lol..... I didn`t know there WAS such a critter :) I know which greasespotters I respect for the wisdom and heart in the context of their posts.... I know whom has ministered to me year in and year out, helping me to grow and re evaluate my thoughts and preconcieved beliefs and notions. I know who has suppported and prayed with me when times were tough.......sympathising with me when during my crisis... None of these posters would probably be considered *good* but I sure have grown to love and respect them greatly. Who is good and who is bad? I dunno, I guess I see posters in two groups......Those who have been a blessing and force in healing and those who seem to come here just to harass and bully. If I point a finger at someone and declare them a *bad* greasespotter.....invariably I find out that that person...the one that I couldn`t STAND...... was of great blessing and assistance to a poster whom I DO care for.... I don`t like to lable anybody here.... we each seem to provide a valuable piece to the puzzle.

Suda, so glad to see that you feel comfortable enough to express your pov here.......I think that it is nice to discuss differing points of view respectfully with one another....Something I never felt that I was permitted to do while involved in twi. Technically .... * a grease spot by midnight* is what it was promised by martindale with the utmost of venom and contempt in his voice ..... would be the fate of ANYONE who ever left the ministry that taught us God`s word. So we are all *greasespots* according to martindale.....

The local fellowship made it very clear that I was unwelcome because of my spouses refusal to be *good* corpes. I kept going anyway, enduring the rudeness hoping that they would find some value in me.....untill they moved the fellowship and wouldn`t tell me where...shrug. I never left in my mind even after reading trans chat and waydale for over a year.....untill greasespot and began reading excathedras posts when she started revealing wierwilles sexual assault :( Up untill that point I think I would have still tried to attend and be a good believer if I had been able to find a fellowship. That was when it came thundering home that twi was not the Godly group that I had supported....and that a man would have to be very evil ...evil to the core to do what he had done. Why I was able to dismiss the stories of sexual impropriety before this?....Why I was able to ignore the evidence of evil prior to this ? I have no idea....I can only say that THIS was the breaking point for me in my mind....I was then able to begin my evaluation of teachings ...ideas and perception aquired over a decade of association with twi. It was my first taste of actually freedom....of allowing myself to think outside of the tight little box that had been imprisoned in.....even though I had been away from twi for almost 5 years.

I am with eagle on this one...... in my experience, it has seemed that the more staunch a person is in their adherance to wierwilles doctrines, the nastier they tend to be in the way they treat people ...and yet somehow think that it is acceptible. I could care less about what doctrine someone believes or where they learned it....(vpw teaching adherants as well) but rather on how they treat others in the operation of the two great commandments Jesus mentioned.... For wierwille, and some of his defenders unfortunatly ..... it seems like Christianity is nothing more than some kind of slim veneer....... scratch the surface and you see the ugliness that lies disguised just undernieth .... It is not a good witness for vpw or the formulas that he taught. Knowing the bible well and being able to research does not make one a genuine Christian. If one is a follower of vpw teachings and doesn`t fall into this catagory, my apologies, this has simply been my experience with some of the people that I have had contact with.

It is hard to explain...... but as best as I can sum it up..... the genuine simply IS what it IS.... ....and the counterfit or wannabe is forever TRYING to be or pass itself off as what the genuine is.

Dunno guys, I just know that we are told scripturally to identify what is inside one another by the fruit manifested period... The indication being that the manifestation of the fruit is a direct result of the life impacting change that has happened when the new birth occurs. NOT something which its strength is based on which verses we recite or what classes we have studied or what books we master..... This call to *come back* to pfal strikes me as folks wanting us to spend the rest of our lives needlessly, ceaselessly persuing/earning/striving, yet never quite achieving something that God/Jesus has already accomplished and freely given.

I don`t think so Mike, I think that it sounds like an excuse made by folks who are decieved into thinking that they have the new birth by the recitation of a few verses for why they AREN`T changed dramatically on the inside. Your version, appears to say that hs and it`s life changing power is dependant on works....ie feeding the mind the word. Sounds pretty weak and inefectual to me if it can`t effect change for years untill certain criteria are met. Simple Guy, great points concerning those verses, I never understood them in that light....wow