rascal

Not that it really matters, waygb monitors this site and no doubt would have already informed the ptb`s of the tapes. It`s the principle of the thing.

I remember that Paw! I remember too when Insurgent was caught and confronted in front of their spouse.

Oh hell when have you ever defended someone whom twi has stolen from? Tattling to twi who owes everything that they have to somebody ELSES efforts...who stole everything that they have themselves......My my... weren`t you a little hero! It was a creepy thing to do, regardless of how you attempt to justify it.

Exactly, until these guys start living and honoring the scriptures which they claim to represent...they are still at best pretty noise ...at worst a complete distraction from ones spiritual walk and responsibility.

Twinky, that definitely would be the normal course for a genuine Christian, a person filled with the spirit of God....It would take honest Godly repentance and sorrow...to be moved with compassion... Their silence screams the obvious.

All pretty sounding excuses justifying a really ratty action. I`ll bet you felt really important. As far as right and wrong?? TWI owns nothing, they didn`t earn anything. We we WE paid for everything that they currently have. They took what we gave under the dishonest auspices of the ministry being our ministry that we would always have access to what we had built....that what we gave was for God. Most of us certainly would never have given them anything had we known what the money was to go to. They lied period. Now they may have legal ownership, but that doesn`t make them right. I imagine that legally they can`t do a thing about this fellow, or they already would have had the tapes seized and him arrested.

Well, legal nitpicking aside, all twi has/had is due to us. You have a few individuals who have taken what tens of thousands of us all worked for and built. Those tapes as well as anything else twi has *belongs* to us, whether the law sees it that way or not.

Maybe so, but one size does not fit all for the people involved with twi...no matter how one views it through the eyes of a child. Most of us didn`t consciously do evil when we were involved, we didn`t try to be deliberately hurtful for gain. Most of us left when we finally saw that twi wasn`t the ministry that we believed, as I think is evidenced by the dramatic drop of membership from many tens of thousands to the less than 3000 current participants. Tens of thousands of us who had integrity and character left when we saw what was happening, yet Bol here want`s to place us all in the same category with vpw who orchestrated the whole mess and lcm who implemented the whole hellish plan. I said it before, I don`t mind being critisized for being young, ignorant, naieve, or even incredibly stupid. I DO have a problem with being painted with the same brush as leadership whom embraced evil practices and sought personal gain. Criminey it reminds me of dealing with my teenagers when they are determined to be mad, no matter what the reality of the circumstances are.

Bol it seems wants to believe that we all some how wanted to be deceived, used, and tossed out like so much trash when every last ounce of usefulness was squeezed out of us....to have to start all over again with nothing in our mid thirties, no credit history, many times alone, having estranged all of our family and friends Yeah boy, just what I had in mind for MY life at 17. You seem to have quite a chip on your shoulder friend, you have been told repeatedly that we weren`t all in league with vpw, why we were so foolish, how young and vulnerable we were, how, manipulative and seductive the doctrine was, why we would continue to support twi, but that is contrary to what you wish to believe....ok how does your unwillingness to alter your perceptions to fit the facts now presented to you, by the people that were then present, make you any different than the wafers that you despise?

What a ratty thing to do, we used to have names for kids that tattled like that in school. How creepy is it to call twi and set their lawyers on somebody? By God, they owe all of us a hell of a lot more than 5000 dollars as far as I am concerned :(

Hells bells, now that we know about fish or whales, or sharks physiology, the Jonas story doesn`t make much sense either. I read a book where the archeologist said that many of our bible stories are variations of texts found in sumeria I think, that the judean prisoner/scholars were required to translate ...that they in turn took these stopries back and it became part of their lore. I am thinking in particular, the tower of babel, and the flood story.

Well, it is like I told my kiddo who was swept away by a passionate, way too good to be true young man in a whirl wind romance who wanted to move her out of our house and into his arms as quickly as possible. She thought he was perfect, she was ready to begin her life as an adult. I begged her to wait a year to see what was underneith his *company* manners, the way he acted when he wanted to impress, to please please just wait to see how he handled adversity, was he going to whine and blame others, was he going to turn to drink, was he going to be jealous and mean when things didn`t go his way? She was 18 and a legal adult, so I couldn`t stop her from doing as she pleased. I thank God that she begrudgingly considered my advice, she slowed things down and agreed to postpone the wedding for a year. Thank God because within 8 months, she began to see too many alarming things to be able to comfortably dismiss. He ended up being all of the above mentioned a really scary stalker when she tried to leave. We had to send her out of state for several months. My whole point is, that it takes a lot of time to really get to know what is really underneith peoples polite exteriors, the person that they want you to see and believe is them. Most people I know that have been internet dating, tend to be like a friend of mine, she was so lonely that every man she met, she tried to make into he was Mr. Right....sometimes after just one weekend. She met and married a guy, what she wanted, he was decent and kind, but I don`t think that she has ever really been happy. My step sister met her husband on the internet and is happily married with children, but she took her time and investigated, got to know the guy, got to know his family, talked to his friends....did a back ground check...lol The thing is whether on the internet or in real life, I believe strongly that you have to take time to get to know the person that is underneith the company manners.

Is this any worse than Old Job who lost his entire family because of a bet between Satan and God?? I mean shooore God gave him a new family and prosperity when it was all over and he had passed muster...it`s all good right?? I mean ...who the hell cares about the other wife and kids....except MAYBE the other wife and kids?? It never occurred to me to doubt the validity of a&s, just the application of it by dishonest men...but the whole job scenario has bugged me as well.

Don`t know, that was some mighty powerful kool aid we were drinking.

OK, so he was the victim of horrific abuse. It hurts to hear of it :( However, like RR`s mom....he had a choice. A great read is an auto biograghy by a man named Monty Roberts..*The man who listened(s?) to horses* As a boy, he was regularly hospitalized by beatings from his father a horse breaker....He watched his father as a police officer get away with beating a man to death in his custody....He grew up to be a man of compassion and kindness...One of the most memorable lines in the whole book was when Monty said that once, he felt his fists tightening in anger as a young man...he stopped himself, vowing that he did not want to be that kind of man. He became so calm, so able to be in tune with animals, that he learned to communicate in their subtle ways. He can even interact with the wild deer on his property. I always thought something was broken inside for vpw to do what he did....but I think that if he had truly found God, was ever genuinely a man who desired to do good, that he could have overcome.

Absolutely Shaz... His sister used to post years ago saying what a sweetie he really was when they were kids... Who doesn`t want to believe that they are God`s elect, that they are entitled to all of the perks and benefits...the thing is Ralf D, and others were offered the same line...they didn`t fall for it. Many made the tough choices when there were attempts to draw them into the con and they suffered the consequences for not buying into the whole mess. What divides them? What keeps the victims from becoming victimizers? Call it character, spirit, whatever... we all have choices to make.

Bol, you seem determined to be mad at us for being stupid or duped or a party to the evil. I am sorry that your life sucked in twi....I am trying to tell you though, that as teenagers with no direction or guidance in life....the idea of being a Godly person, living a Godly lifestyle, being an active member in the spiritual battle...trying to be a force for good...strike a blow against the adversary....a family...love...being a part of something important ....it was all very attractive. The people I met for the most part were the most giving, altruistic, selfless souls that I have ever met....it would be in error to lump them in with those who deliberately chose to do evil. The good folks far far outweighed the sh1tty people. By in large...we were simply a bunch of good hearted people that got led astray. Villianize the whole group for being stupid or foolish, or ignorant, if you want to see us that way....but it would be a mistake to believe that we all saw the evil and embraced it. Go ahead and be an arm chair quarterback 30 years after the fact and criticize us for what we shouldda, couldda, mightta known better how to do. Most of us simply struggled to make the best decisions and choices at the time. I

Well Bol, most of us were just kids who for a while believed a con, who did their best to live a Godly life style, who tried to be good people. I think that at the time many of us believed with all of our hearts that it was true. Some still believe... Wierwille was an adult, he took what he wanted through deceit... he raised people to believe that it was acceptable and to do the same. I think there is quite a difference.

Thank you Rumrunner.

Well this lying to the hs crap sounds so similar to what they did to us. Do this for God, Do that...but when you volunteered, they didn`t tell you it was an oath or vow...that to break it meant to lie to God....You must honor that vow or face the consequences A&S did. It is a load of horse dang either way as far as I am concerned. For God`s sake, we were forced to murder our unborn children with this passage... You were left no other option...murder your child or lie to God and die anyway. I never considered that the scriptural passage might be simply something to promote someone elses agenda...but I have to agree...Love God and Love your neighbor...that`s what Jesus said... You got wierwille drugging and raping our sisters, martindale driving people to their deaths....and yet they stood healthy and whole...while someone fibbing about how much they got for their land is struckl dead??? Do you not think wierwille`s teachings claiming that God required these things of us is not an even MORE reprehensible lie to God? It is bull....the evil that is allowed to happen in this world unfettered ...the monsters that harm the innocent...are never interfered with. I think the passage was just used to ensnare and enslave.

Awww Geisha, don`t let it. I don`t think that pond is looking for answers or dialog. I don`t think that you are wrong Dooj.

I answered your question with two that I knew about, is that not what you were looking for pond? You obviously don`t get why many of us are here ... it would seem that you have no desire to....you complain about what we talk about year after year....well what would motivate someone to year after year come to insult and find fault with what others come to this site to discuss and have obviously found benefit in? So go ahead, entertain yourself, play your games, do what you do, ask questions and then insult, deride, when folks honestly try to answer ...shoot invoke the name of Jesus a few times, that undoubtedly makes it alright....meanwhile I intend to continue to utilize this site for the purpose that it was intended....to talk about what happened in twi....Isn`t it just too damned bad that we don`t have better things to talk about? If vpw had been a man of honor and integrity ... we wouldn`t have anything unpleasant to discuss. Creepy nasty perverted old man who raped our young sisters, who took what he did in God`s name...and yet, it is the people who simply TALK about what he did that get the spite and critisizm.

Nope, she was the last. They are indeed quite a brew...lol though technically 3 of them are now considered adults, one is a mouthy teenager and 3 pre teens...lol They are an awsome group of people that have an awfull lot of fun, and they usually make room for their mamma. Sometimes it is like being a teen again myself. Good thing I guess because it doesn`t look like I`ll be able to enjoy exotic places like New Zealand and Oz ..You do some really cool stuff too.

I have read of two separate accounts of girls being given drinks and waking up in VP`s bed on the motor coach. John L*nn confirmed that drugging and rape went on. Damned right I`ll call vpw a rapist, a serial sexual predator and pig.

(((Wacky))) I met some great people, my spouse one of them, whom I don`t always think is so great.....lol I loved who we thought we were, the nobility of the cause that we thought we were fighting for. I loved traveling and feeling like I had instant family and friends where ever I stopped. I found that I had to start all over again from square one because what I thought that I knew was so questionable. It is cool, I am at a good place now.