rascal

Well understand THIS phantom...if our experience is anything to go by...... TWI WILL expect/require that your sister tithe 10 to 15 % of the gross right off the top...... TWI WILL pressure her to spend it in a way that they aprove of...... There IS no more worthey cause on the planet than the movement of God`s word. Understand that your concerns and motives will be completely mischaracterized....as worldly ...greedy ...and evil :(

Oh and who can forget the all time great inspiration of fear..... *If you EVER leave the ministry that taught you God`s word...you`ll be a grease spot by midnight* :)

FFC, They ALWAYS treated you nice when you began involvement with twi.....you remember...protected the newbies from the teachings that they coudn`t *handle* .....no matter when that was (for me it was in 79) They waited for you to *mature* spiritually before they began the manipulate with the fear teachings. But slowly the fear was always worked in.....If you don`t go wow you cannot grow spiritually....you may lose the word it will have fallen on rocky ground......fear Musn`t go home after wow year.....you might die spiritually because no one is there to fellowship with...fear If you do not obey your leader in every particular no matter how outragious, you might become posessed...fear If you didn`t tithe God couldn`t protect you....fear If you didn`t go corpes you would be a disapointment to God and not ever amount to anything...fear If you spoke up when being mistreated....you were considered un meak and contentious...you might become posessed....fear If you are involved in wow or corpes you have made a commitment to God...if you break that vow you will become posessed and die....fear Last and worst of all was the teaching that if you didn`t abort your unborn child and finish your commitment to God...you would face the consequences of disobediance and betrayal to God.... complete with every record in the scriptures of the graphic death and destruction that befell people who didn`t honor their vows....FEAR ALl personal examples backed scripturally, all occuring before 1986..... Yeah I`d say there was a bit of fear involved.

He was a MAN who used scripture as his weapon of choice to steal, to kill, and to destroy :(

THAT is why we must continue to tell the stories :(

I have to add....that if it were YOU that were drugged and raped by vp or his friends..... or it was YOU who`s life was devistated and destroyed at 17 for non compliance on vpw`s bus ...(and yes this DID happen in the 70s UNDER vpw`s direction) ...you might then be able to safely assume that twi was a very evil place from the very beginning....far more so than the church that you villify ckmkeon :( You have to be willing to honestly look at what vpw did ...where he got his materials that he taught ...what was added by him to achieve control....what he used the scriptures to steal to be able to understand who and what he was and whether or not he deserves forgiveness or his teachings deserve credence. This is what is necessary in order to be honest.

ckmkeon... very well.... You BELIEVE that vpw and twi were at one time good. How can you know that if you close your ears and eyes to the fruit manifested in both? I know that you respect and care for what you believe twi was .... that you base your defense on who you think vpw was....but is that at all honest if you cannot bear to examine the ALL of the fruit in his life? There are reasons that you feel that he is trustworthey...there are reasons why you feel that twi had merit....however when examined honestly......when you consider the input by people who were there from the beginning..who worked side by side with vpw.......people who saw the predations and people who endured his sick perversions.....and yes we do have these people on these boards ....only then you can honestly evaluate his moral character and qualifications or lack there of to handle the scriptures honestly friend....begin to seperate the man from the legend. :)

ckmkeon, We discuss the sins and pain of 30 yra ago because Folks NEED to understand who and what vpw was...what his ministry was built upon in order to be able to understand why we were brutally used and then when every last ounce of usefullness was squeezed out.....cast away like so much garbage. When one finally understands the true nature of vp ..... understands why he appeared credible .....understands how we were vulbnerable.....THEN we begin to heal....we can stop being so very angry with God and understand it wasn`t HE who betrayed us. It wasn`t HE who didn`t care. This involves honestly discussing their actions....good and bad....analysing the fruit that was manifested in each in order to discern whether they were of the flesh or of the spirit as galatians instructs us. If we do not discuss and reveal the excessive drunkeness....the rampant adultery and fornication....the hatred manifested...just to mention a few by vpw and his leaders.......how then will we determine if vp and his buddies were *of the spirit* or *of the flesh*? Whether they are worthey of our respect and forgiveness or condemnation and dire warnings to others. ckmeon..... I hope that I am able to communicate this in a gentle non controversial manner, as this information needs to be seriously considered without putting you in a defensive mode. As noble as your defense of twi and vpw is ..... as a person of character and principle, I do not believe that if you honestly understood who and what you are defending.....that you could not in good conscience continue to do so.

Lol Hi Thomas, my name is Cathy and I was in a cult.... hee hee Pipes, one of the big things that helped me after leaving was to develope some new interests entirely non bible related ... began to find *me* again....the one that wasn`t allowed to exist in twi. As you explore your interests...you will find friends and balance....as you explore your interests you will start to remember the things that you once enjoyed but were told were unimportant. Here are some suggestions that we enjoyed.... community theatre.... volunteering at the humane society....church groups....bowling leagues..... dog training classes....art classes.....it doesn`t matter WHAT it is....just stretch yourself in another direction. I have met my dearest friend in karate class....our children are friends and we have struggled to study karate and grappled with the issues of raising our teens for nearly 5 years together now....I have found that sense of belonging and purpose in reaching our ultimate goal. I have a terrific friend that I train horses with....I met her while caring for an elderly neighbors stock when she was injured.....one of the dearest and most compassionate women that I have met. The point is, you will find that companionship in the most suprising and unforseen places....it will just take some time and patience...those *instant* friends and family in twi were rarely genuine. Belle, I remember the cold bleak feeling of being alone after we left....I cried out to God for a friend...at the time I thought I would never have anyone to care about me again....I was so alone..... It just took some time is all....true friends ... the ones that last a life time....the ones that will stick with you through your triumphs and your struggles.....take time and investment.... You guys are still very new out.... still getting your bearings....do not feel guilty for posting, that is carry over from twi....it is the best way to get this stuff out in the open and deal with it..... Besides, I have made some pretty damned good friends right here in these forums.

Do you REALLY care ckmkeon ? Do you Honestly want to know what happened and how the word was used to subjegate and control me? I don`t mind recounting here what happened ....but only if you want to know rather than simply wanting to pick a fight and just argue. Peace, Cathy

Hmmm I dunno how you can say that folks have lost sight of the word.....S` far as I can see....most of us have moved beyond the bondage that the word was used to put us under .... I don`t know what you think that we have lost.

My sweet daughter is 17 .... the age that we were when we got involved....It brings it all home, makes it so much more personal for me.... She would never be able to handle what happened. Girls this age are so young and naieve, so willing to please, so optimistic and trusting. We mustn`t feel bad for the crimes these criminals perpetrated on our trusting souls in SPITE of what armchair shrinks and the local bully says to the contrary.

Dearest (((excathedra))) I do not know, but somehow in spite all that has happened, despite the crushing betrayals and horrendous treatment in twi by people who claim to represent him........has not quite been able to crush all of the hope out of me that there IS a God and that some day there will be a reconning and restitution....that someday we will all know peace.

Oh (((excathedra))) PLEASE don`t say that you were a jerk.... You were simply young and alone and dared to hope that these people had the answeres they promised to understand the reason for our fragmented lives. We were so young, so neglected, so vulnerable.....many of us had no self esteem or anyone to guide us. You had someone enter our bleak lonely lives and enthusiastically offer ALL the answeres to life and Godliness....a chance of peace in our tormented souls...a chance to make the shame and the pain go away....someone offered to lead us to God and peace....give our lives value, purpose, meaning. We were desperate and gullible enough to dare to hope, hope one more time and try to trust the people who told us that they knew the way..... We could be part of a new and wonderfull family...maybe for the first time in our lives we could be loved and respected....a member of a great spiritual movement....we were going to be art of a tremendous force for good :( VPW exploited our naievity.... he used that ray of hope to lure us into his snare....only then to betray our fragile trust. We never saw it coming because it was cloaked in scriptures and bible classes. We never saw it coming because in our youth and naevity, we never dreamed that anyone who claimed to represent God could be so despicably cruel and selfish :( Please don`t say you were a jerk....we were decieved into believing that these people cared about us and cared about helping .... THEY are the jerks :( We were simply foolish enough to dare to hope

Ya THINK clay?? Mike you are pretty bossey about who can post what here.

Me back off on this thread? What on earth for?? My pov is valid, and could even be considered to have some merit.

That is silly Mike, my 7 healthy children are proof of the falacy of that silly teaching. They ARE however an indication of God`s wonderfull blessing upon my unworthey life. It certainly would be arrogant to assume that his forbearance and goodness in permitting me the privelige of enjoying these wonderfull children and their good health as a result of anything that I could have possibly done mentally between my ears. I enjoy and am humbly gratefull fo what he choses to bless me with.... I`ll tell you.....lol.....He generally has a way of making me look like a real fool when I start to belligerantly *demand* a prescibed set of results due to my mental pictures and believing.

That really doesn`t make very much sense..... sorry. What you wrote seems to be old testament commandments and rules......Love God and Love your neighbor on *THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS rest ALL ALL ALL of the law....... I love whom I love...studying their words ad nausium once introduced seems pretty silly to me....get to know them personally now today....NOT by what they wrote to someone else a long long time ago.. Love God Love your neighbor....

Study teach study teach....study teach.... What about living it? ....THAT is the example that will bring the ring of truth to what you teach....That is why scripturally, I think that we are instructed to examine the fruit in a persons life....it tells us what is on the iinside.......God knows that it is too easy to fake Christianity on the outside For you and other vpw doctrine adherants to continously tell us that irregardless of the scriptures....that examination of ones fruit is to be ignored....is enough to raise alarm bells. Study teach teach study....ad nausium..... Seems to me the scriptures serve simply as a guide to educate us into introducing us, teaching us to recognise and utilize that *spirit that dwells within to will and to do of his good pleasure* The way you present it ..... pfal and scriptures are the ultimate end all be all in and of itself....... I think that your formula could actually serve as a preventative of that intimate fellowship with God and your fellow believers. How can mastery of pfal aid us in the two great commandments that Jesus spoke of? It can`t ...it serves as a source of pain and division.

Cursed God and died??? Oh my, no....If folks didn`t care about you .... they wouldn`t take the time to formulate thoughtfull responses exhibited here. Your perceptions of folks here, their intent and even the content of their posts is out of whack.

Dearest ex 10, I was speaking to mike, not in reference to what yoo wrote. Your posts have made so much sense to me, I am at loss as to understand how anybody could be impervious to the impact of their content :(

Not compare and shop why not? I think that it is important to utilize a yard stick that God uses in scripture.....you want to try to dismiss them as unimportant....like I am supposed to ignore what God has done because you say it wasn`t nearly enough or quite good enough....that somehow it would be better if I did it your way. Well you damned well better have something of value in that grocery cart to show me than more hoops. You percieve my posts as belly aching? I thought that we were simply discussing our pov`s ...

I wasn`t speaking of you personally Mike. I know that you try....however, most pfal adherants that I have met do not exhibit the fruit in their lives that God said would identify them as *of the spirit* ...this makes their doctrines highly suspicious to me. I don`t trust them.

Honey, have you LOOKED in your shopping cart? I don`t see anything IN there but unhealthy brightly packaged junk food..... Looks real pretty but has very little nutritional value..... We have filled ours buggies to capacity and are at home enjoying the bountifull feast.

I don`t think that you understand what we ARE missing Mike. The bleak, non stop hoop jumping that is a requirement of the pfal adherant. The pfal adherants that I am familiar with tend to be quite nasty to one another, and exhibit little if any fruit of the spirit in their lives. For us ..... Life is good, God`s blessings bountifull since ditching pfal. By every yardstick that God utilizes in the scriptures, everything that he gives as an his indication of favor and blessings are demonstrated to the fullest extent in our lives. Proseperity, children, peace, fruit of the spirit, blessings, all of the things God promises.....all freely given of him with no strings attatched.