rascal

Cold, harsh, calloused, uncaring ....yep spoken like a true wierwillite :(

In my mind, a wierwillite is someone who puts their doctrine above people and their welfare.

Dove, your treatment of temple lady and folks whom don`t share your belief system is a screaming endorsement of why I find the effects of twi doctrine so toxic. So many of you guys don`t seem to be able to post your pov`s without some kind of unwarrented back handed slap to someone while doing it. Does sounding brass or tinkling symble ring any bells? Darned right Oakspear, disagreed vehemently at times, and yet I still retain a great deal of liking and respect for you personally :) The key is civility and respect.

Eagle, I only got involved in 79. What I know was from correspondence, as app and spouse corpes. He once wrote me an incredibly venomnous hatefilled letter, without having EVER met me or aprised himself of the facts in the situation....(I was following the leadership in my branch directed) ...I was inconsolable after he declared me a spiritual loser... He then 3 months letter wrote me a smarmey *welcome to the corpes house hold letter* I was God`s best, spiritua elite...yadda yadda...completely unaware of the spiritual filth he had declared me to be in his earlier letter... I was also in Ks when he declared all of the fellowships in our city were no longer associated with the way. He based his decision and rage on false information recieved from ONE brown nosing suck up who wanted to look like a big shot that sought him out during a visit to Emporia....without bothering to check with the lc the bc or the long standing dedictated believers of that town. I knew that the leadership in our state had been fired....I knew why... I didn`t even really have a problem with it. I knew that when hq sent letters to the believers that they flat out lied as to why our limb leaders had been fired and sent packing. So I had a pretty good precedent for knowing that lcm was quite willing to be extremely viscious without provocation by the time the loyalty oath letter came out .... I also had first hand experience with hq telling an entire state of believers an out and out lie. So when we got that letter Eagle, I could see the bully for what he was....it didn`t matter though we loved the ministry and respected the man whom we believed that God had chosen...and would have done ANYTHING asked as committed dulous. We might have even written a letter swearing allegiance...knowing that we would never forske God`s ministry or his leader, knowing that we had always jumped and never asked how high. EXCEPT for one line....he demanded that we swear loyalty to stand with him and the ministry which had taught us God`s word....*and don`t give me any of that standing with God crap* My spouse sadly shook his head and told me that we would ALWAYS stand with God :( When we didn`t reply to his satifaction....we recieved a letter declaring us salt that had lost it`s savor (worthless) fit only to be cast in the street and trod under the feet of the beasts..this to people who had served faithfully for 10 and 15 years respectively....precious in God`s sight..meek people who simply wanted to serve God to the best of their ability for their entire lives. This is what he said to the people who displeased him...It was just more evidence in my book of his instability....we still fellowshipped and supported twi in every way that we had for the last decade....we just weren`t recognised.

Got what you taught wrong? ...ahhh now I understand your perspective....YOU are THE teacher...the rest of greasespoters your *students*....so sit down and shut UP Tom Strange, you are interrupting the teacher and disrupting his class That oughtta be in your profile so folks understand that you aren`t here to participate....just indoctrinate. What....is the only reason you are involved here is to muster up some recruits for your new and better group? The arrogance of your percieved self as our *educator* just floors me.

Agreed Sky rider....He reminds me of us 20 years ago. There wasn`t anything that you could have told me that would have changed my pov. I would have defended twi and wierwille to the death. That is why I use the term naieve ...... It took some of us twenty years to find out who/what wierwille and twi was beyond the glitzy public persona.... When the legalism creeps in, when the intrusion and control becomes untenable.....maybe ckmkeon will remember us and reconsider our points and veracity.

Searcher, I understand you feeling offended, really.....however I do not find his perspective any more offensive or wrong than twi`s understanding and doctrine on cancer....... I repeat...what I personally see here is a man struggeling to praise God under the most trying of circumstances. I see him struggeling to place his pain and suffering right or wrong into a context of that which he can understand and accept spiritually and achieve a measure of peace during the scariest time in his life. Further more, if God is the loving heavenly father that we believe that he is....I imagine that it probably isn`t doctrinal issues he is critiquing at the moment ....but possibly the heart and trust of a man whom has tried desperatly to walk and glorify him during the most trying time in his life.... Just my pov is all.

Folks, it sounds to me like a poor fellow struggeling with a life threatening situation and trying desperatly to place it within the parameters of that which he can understand and be at peace with. It sounds like he is trying to glorify God and speak praise ... address the questions, fears and doubts of his parisioners that care for him. Does it REALLY sound any more outrageous than what we were taught ?....ie cancer is a devil spirit that posesses our body....that you have left a door open somewhere spiritually to be attacked. You must simply *believe* and it will go away and all will be made well. When our friends succumbed....did we blame the disease? Oh heck no we blamed the poor sufferer because they just couldn`t quite muster the believing necessary to defeat satan......it was always the sick persons fault. Come on, fighting cancer is a scarey place to be....the guy seems to simply be trying to reconcile all of the suffering a pain with a God that he obviously loves and wants to trust....not offend people with vile herecies :(

Come on, a kid who was raised by ex wafers would talk this way....He wouldn`t necessarily be correct on the vernacular back then....or the programs....and the details would be be vague. Yeah, I know, his Dad was not posting ...but the rest of his posts makes sense from the pov of a zealous young man fiercly loyal to his parents and the doctrine that they raised him with. Then again, maybe he is a current wafer` kid... He sounds young and committed to current twi doctrine.... ckmkeon, there is much to be learned here. I hope that you will educate yourself as to the true nature and foundation of the ministry and teachers on which you intend to base your understanding of truth. Your parents, as good a folks as they appear to be....were decieved by a very clever, very personable individual. He was unworthey of the trust and respect that they invested.

OR Eagle, he was a screw ball and a bully drawing a line in the sand and expecting people to grant him complete loyalty. Maybe some of us knew back then how volitile and unpredictible he was. Some of us had previous experiences with him going off half cocked and issuing cruel judgements without bothering to apprise himself of the facts. Some of us knew from personal experience that he was not trustworethy enough to swear an oath of loyalty to. I think that he got the suprise of his life when people woke up and realized that they owed their loyalty to NO man .... especially one who would say ...*and don`t give me that standing with God crap* That single statement alone in the demand of loyalty awoke thousands. I think that you may be giving LCM way too much credit here.

Well up untill greasespot and way dale, I suppose that all of the folks who`s lives were ravaged, their reputations savaged and who were ignominiously booted...... of the all of the people who were forced to do abominable things in the name of God .....all of the people who were m&a and declared posessed so that no one would listen.......probably felt that they were in the minority and never given a chance to tell their accounts of abuse :( Now for the first time WE have a chance to tell our side of the story.... we are being given a turn to speak. I am sorry that makes wierwille/twi/pfal supporters feel uncomfortable...or feel picked on.....or now that people are aware of twi`s nature that many have lost respect for vpw...... but it was and always will be a part of twi`s ugly legacy....

ckmkeon, you Dad and mom are probably great people. I will be the first to tell you that vpw could be very charming when it suited him. You have to understand that there was a public and a private side to his persona. You have eye witnesses right here to his viscious cruelty. I truly am glad that your folks were not some of the ones abused. ckmkeon, I have nothing to gain by lying to you, I will not do it....but you must understand that your folks were not with him 24/7 they may be entirely unaware of what went on behind closed doors. I can tell you of several first hand accounts of atrocities endured directly at his hands, but I guess there is no point if you and your folks are determined to believe the persona that he let the general public see. You are calling a whole lot of people out and out liars, in defense of a man you never knew whom your parents met but briefly. That is very sad.

Seems mighty insulting of management and patrons alike :(

Snort *getting bummed* is a mighty nice way to lable the after effects of abuse suffered directly at the twi leaders Allan..... It IS entirely the fault and shame of the people who utilized the scripture to grant themselves authority and masqueraded as ministers to steal from, and destroy so many. Further more, I think that the heartlessness commonly demonstrated by the most ardent of twi ministry doctrine supporters is the most damning evidence of all as to the poor spiritual healthiness of what we were taught :( Love God n love your neighbor? Not frigging likely.

Well gee ck, you are mighty young to know what was happening in the ministry when vpw was alive. Isn`t it kind of naieve to base a belief so strongly on a man whom you have never met? Have you come here to defend a myth or to honestly examine the evidence either way? I know that it is very hard to read and assimilate, but there were many many of us at greasespot that were eye witness to some pretty horrific abuse straight from the teachers hands.....there are many here who knew vpw live and were eye witness to his at times drunkenness,at times his cruelty and at times his perversions.... There have been accounts from now grown children who were in the corpes program under vpw who tell stories of horrific abuse suffered in residence .... Even the people here who believe twi was a good place ...know of his abuse of power and the devistation he created in our precious young sisters in Christ and dismiss it as collateral damage that is regretable but forgivable because they got something of benefit from the bible being taught...... Can you name a time frame where you think that evil WASN`T being praticed? There are people that were participants in twi and can give you straight forward accounts of what they saw. There is a book out that documents the beginnings of the ministry....there are pages upon pages of first hand accounts of people being hurt at every stage of vpw`s ministry..... Can it really be Godly if some where being deeply hurt while others were being taught scripture? Did not Jesus find even the one sheep precious and of value? Yet you want to contend that the hundreds that were devistated directly by vpw`s hands and the thousands at the hands of his hand picked ministers are some how acceptible casualties in a Christian ministry? Some how unimportant? ckmkeon, I URGE you to educate yourself please, your life is far too important for you to base it on assumptions of the legend that you have heard. Start reading the archives, there are many first hand accounts....check out the child abuse threads...if you have any heart at all the accounts there will break it. Do you have the guts to check out the sexual abuse threads? or the forced abortion threads? or most damning of all the suicide threads. You need to be honestly aware of what went on before you can make an educated decision as to whether or not you believe a man who could do such things is one you wish to venerate.

Lol Dave, I invite you to sit at my table ANY day :) I didn`t mean to imply you were or weren`t a twi supporter...my reference to you was in the context of doctrinal issues and debates....That you are a gentleman and kind irregardless which side of the issue you debate. Dove, I guess we had better just agree to disagree and let it rest, as I don`t think anything I say would help you see my pov or me any differently than you do. I am sorry, for I bear neither you nor anyone else here any ill will.

So now its everybody ELSES fault that people don`t have the conviction or courage to remain and present their pov? I suppose if they HAD stayed ...that THEY then would have been in the majority eh? I am at a loss to understand why twi supporters feel so persecuted and seem to have such a problem with the open discussion of ideas and expression of personal points of view :(

Well does it matter djs, that in a court of law, the judge found that rosey was aware of lcm`s crimes and did nothing? It is documented on public court documents. Doesn`t seem like she has much of a moral compass to me....

Sorry Dove, I thought that you said it was like me in a karate fight against 50 other people....unfair. Oh well, I guess that we will have to agree yet again, to disagree.....I am still thankfull that we are both able to post here. irregardless of our perspectives.

But this ISN`T a fight here.... it isn`t 50 against 1. It is 51 people posting their opposing view points. Why is it that you think it is a fight? If your view point isn`t in the majority so what? It is STILL your view point. Everyone here has examined the same information brought to the table and come up with their own opinions and conclusions... What the mojority view point is depends on who is posting when....it is ever changing. Again, there are people in the minority who post with respect and address the issues and thoughts WITHOUT resorting to personal attacks ....those people are treated with respect and their posts considered. It isn`t about your pov, but how you treat others here....no name tags ..no pc...no cliques and no agendas.... What you accuse greasespot and the posters of is false, and missing the great good to be found here and in each other.

Pipes, Life is GOOD! I have spent WAY too many years doing other peoples will....not to thoroughly enjoy every single moment of my remaining life doing what pleases me personally. It is a good thing my spouse understands this....because we (daughter and I) brought two more horses home this week that needed a home...for a total of 9. We have 7 dogs 5 of them HUGE....4 cats....too many turtles and hamsters and iguannas and geckos to mention....not to mention a tortoise who will reach 145 lbs in weight in the next 8 yrs.... What profit are they? None what so EVER....matter of fact they cost an enormous amount to care for...but the kids and I enjoy them...so we continue to rescue every stray we lay hands on. Does my house work get done? Oh HAYAL no....but this week we DID play in the creek, hunt fossels, ride horses and go to our karate classes. Is THAT decent and in order? Oh HAYAL no....but we sure are a heck of lot happier than when everything WAS!!! What I am saying is that I think that what we do in this life is simply our business to either be happy doing what we please or making ourselves miserable suiting somebody ELSES idea of what they think we OUGHT to be doing....this includes our personal responsibilities.

The price paid? Well if loss of youth, youth, finances, education isn`t enough...... How about for some, all dignity, any respect, unborn children....assault of character These are pretty heavy prices paid ...and then to find out that those who required this due....were not behaving in loving/ spiritual/Godly manner themselves.....yeah it *%^#*es some of us off, it doesn`t bother other people at all ...so what?? We are all exway, we all have equal voice....if your pov isn`t a popular one....there is a valid reason.....examine your pov, your style of deliverance, rather than blame greasespot and everyone else for not caring to share it The ONLY pressure here is that which you personally place upon yourself. I don`t understand you being threatened by my experiences or my pov...it is mine and mine alone...whether you or anyone else agrees with me. What is it you expect? Are we supposed to not say what we think? Voice our unpleasant experiences? Reveal the betrayal by people we trusted to represent God`s pov? Will people get an accurate picture of twi WITHOUT these petty little details?

Thats what YOU said dove....geeze you complain because folks don`t agree with you..that folks with a different pov are somehow accepted...what IS that??? Good grief, what is it you want? You want us all to pat you on the back? Does everybody need to change their pov to suit dove so he feels a little better? I am deeply offended and probably always will be, at the betrayal of wierwille and his leaders visited upon us all....that isn`t likely to change. No agenda, but apparently as folks learn the truth about what went on behind closed doors, many feel the same ....some don`t.....for heavens sake, that ISN`T an agenda OR a clique.... As ex way we are both permitted to post our pov`s ... the information is out there for everyone to draw their own conclusions either way.....How much more fair can it be then that? We can still like and respect one another irregardless....EACH poster here has an important piece of the puzzle, has valuable and apreciated input, and I personally sincerily apreciate their presence......HOWEVER, when people cannot address their comments to the ideas posted and instead have to turn things into personal attacks....THAT is when you lose/have lost credibility with me...or any respect I may have ever had for their character or pov...but hey, that is just me.....and who cares what *I* think..... I don`t care if you agree with me, dove nor what the rest of greasespot thinks.......these are MY thoughts...MY emotions...MY pov that were unimportant for 20 years...and FINALLY I get a chance to voice them. I don`t need to be liked or accepted...I need to be allowed to finally have a voice.....THAT is the beauty of greasespot imo......there isn`t an agenda, and you guys insult this place by your accusations of favoritism. Again, all it will take to get better results..IF you care ... is to post your opinions (whichever side of the argument that you support) graciously and kindly.

I give up, You guys will see only that which you want to see....and it isn`t just in this thread. You need a conspiracy? A clique? Go ahead....place the blame on the rest of the posters for not giving the feed back that you require or feel is your due, instead of showing the kindness and respect that would bring credibility to your pov. It is a shame because there are a lot of terrific folks here with great perspective and input on either side of an issue.

NAME DROPPING????? Geeze, I mentioned some posters whom are able to disagree respectfully...and in turn have EARNED my respect. I do not know them nor necessarily agree with their povs .......They ARE however tactfull and respectfull...and as such I can consider their input....and enjoy their at times different pov. If I wanted to listy peaple I knew and agreed with, it would be an entirely different list. You have taken a point and percieved an ugliness and ulterior motive that was never there...no big suprise to me. You have accused in the past on a regular basis .... a great many posters of needing proffessional help and meds and even going so far as accusing them of being a danger to loved ones....instead of actually considering the content of our posts.... No problem....but please understand.....this WILL be percieved as a personal attck....this WILL not engender very much respect for you or endear you to the folks that you attempt to maligne and try to discredit their input as the maunderings of someone who is mentally disturbed... I REPEAT....if your pov is not well recieved....stop blaming the other people here, and adress the content and manner in which you present your pov...IF you want people to give your ideas credence and you as a person respect. It is all pretty simple.