rascal

You bet ((((tbone)))) It is damned tough to understand how people that we loved and trusted could be so evil. I know that I ended up feeling tremendously guilty and ashamed for a long time for promoting/supporting/defending/enabeling this outfit to operate. As far as new insight or scoop....The reason that most folks keep telling their stories here and sharing their info is so that people will ALWAYS have the opportunity to really know how evil twi/vpw was if they care to.....and when someone *gets* it...has those epiphanies....that is when we know that it was worth while to tell this story for the twentieth time.......for the one seeing it for the first time...it is a blow.......but it also seems to be when we begin to heal....the bewilderment is gone...we know what we are facing. Tbone I am sorry that the thread I recommended disturbed you.... I hope that you eventually feel that it is better to know anyway :( You are able to look at things honestly and that takes courage...... you are able to examine the accounts without making excuses for the conduct....or minimalizing what was endured....I join dott in applause.

Dooj, No relation to howard.... Mr. Allen ran the first web sight that most of us started finding out about what happened in twi. He brought charges against lcm and a good many others at hq for what happened to his wife... seems to me there were over 50 counts....most having to do with rape and coersion. Look at the front page of greasespot...I think there are links to the lawsuit.

Ok... I cannot fathom cheating for any reason. I have been involved in a difficult marriage for nearly 20 years....There simply is not any acceptible excuse for doing this in my book.. Get a divorce rather then put your partner at risk for a life threatening disease without their knowledge. I want to tell a story..... My Mom, has a new neighbor ..... she talked about the poor lady, a recent refugee from a very nasty divorce. Her ex was a wealthy local attorny...she had the big house the whole works...and gosh darn it...the man ended up turning to drugs cheating on her repeatedly .... running with a bad croud...n doggone it he ended up stealing all of her jewlery and selling it.....they are older...in their late 60s btw ... Well here is the REST of the stowry..... I met the neighbor and low n behold I KNOW her! I actually stayed with her and her husband right after they were married at their cottage on the river as a guest of the husbands son`s family about 10 years ago. The grown son at the time ... shared with me how he detested them both because they had been cheating together most of the time he was growing up while my friends father was married to his mom.... It broke his mothers heart to have her spouse go out to walk the dog several times weekly ....ionly to meet the girl friend /future 2nd wife half way around the block for their little flings <_< The kids knew and hated him for it.... She then becomes 2nd wife when kids are safely grown and this guy divorces wife number 1 to marry long time girl friend .. So this poor gal then has the NERVE to tell me when we are chatting this week that poor baby ex hubby was such a NICE man before he started the drugs and hanging with the wrong crowd Hellooooo??? She knew this rat bastard cheated on his first wife and mother of his children for years before he divorced to marry her....What the he ll did she THINK he would do when he got bored with HER...or she got a little less perky looking and fun??? Anyway, here she is old...alone... used up and she blames HIM!!! Worse yet she talkes about him being skeletally thin arms and legs like tooth picks due to the drugs....with the behavior he has exhibited....she damned well better get herself checked out to make sure he hasn`t left her a permanent *gift* to remember him by :( Moral of the story? A spouse who would cheat isn`t a spouse..they have broken that trust .....they are just playing games...and might as well leave anyway. Personally, I would say good ridance to a spouse who could excuse cheating....they weren`t worth a damn to begin with if they break their vows.

Damned glad to have you back wg :) I was screamed at vein popping spittle flying full force face melting once for having parakeets and hamsters that were slated to be killed from the pet store that i worked in....I used to care for them untill well and then place them in homes.... I also had a couple of horses and a dog....... My Goodness you would have thought that I had committed the most heinous of sins :( And yeah cool chef I too tucked my tail, hung my head and meekly accepted that venomous insane screaming.... That guy was a great big stupid jock type....I would personally love to have a chance to kick his stupid jock bu tt because I have a sneaking suspicion that in addition to being a viscious biggoted bully, he would be a sniveling coward.......I`ll bet he would soil himself if anybody ever stood up to his belligerant self. I was also required to sell my car to the tc not to long afterwards.... because he wanted it and I was going out wow. I loved that car which had faithfully carried me all over the country which had been meticulously maintained. I was so terrified of being screamed at by the lc again .... that I tucked my tail and hung my head and did as my tc required ... I didn`t want too...he told me that if I didn`t that it would never make it on the wow field....I wouldn`t be blessed if I didn`t obey my leader....a recipe for disaster when I was putting my life in God`s hands as a wow......and sadly sold him my car and left for the wow field :( Course I heard that it made it to many many roa`s and ministry for years afterwards...damned oportunistic liar.

Welll lemmee see.... there were an estimated 25,000 participants BEFORE the Allen suite....less than 5000 participating adults within a couple of years after....hmmmm....math tells me that is over 20,000 people who have left twi....after lcm`s criminal activity was brought to light....also once the focus of the legal spotlight was shining brightly upon twi...a lot of OTHER criminal and liable conduct ceased as well :) I don`t know what problem ANYONE could have with holding somebody legally liable for their criminal actions. In this case it seems to have had far reaching impact for 20,000 plus people. Thank God for the Allens and their courage :) If they had quietly slunk away.... no lawsuit, no way dale and probably no greasespot....and then even those of us who had left anyway would be tortured with doubts and misgivings. Oh, n as far as what the court systems of this country thought that the Allens were entitled to legally....who in the hell CARES what they did with it.....I cannot fathom why you think that you would have any valid imput into how they spent their money....or figure out why anybody would owe anything to charity or anybody else. Jeeeeze as if decades of donated time, money, work, and prayer isn`t enough given in this life time .... <_< What a rediculous notion that the Allens would owe anybody anything.

Sigh.....folks just need to understand that it is so much more than a boys will be boys thing....or good men that occasionally slipped.....or succumbing to temptation :( This was pure unadulterated evil embraced and practiced that produced devistating ...life long impact on the victims. It takes a special type of orneriness to destroy without compunction repeatedly... how much MORE so presenting ones self as a minister....GOD`S representative....there to teach and heal ..... da mn em... they contaminate and turn people away from the very God that COULD bring peace and healing to a troubled soul. After vp or craig got through with you....how the he ll could anyone EVER trust God again?

He deserved it, and apparently the court systems believed he was entitled as well :) Twi sure didn`t want that information public and they paid through the nose to keep it quiet .... not to mention having to lkick out their top leader and money maker and chief abuser in order to do so! Praise God the Allans stood up to the monster and required atonement .... Goliath couldn`t have been any more intimidating to David , then the giant corporate twi and all of their nasty attornies being faced down by one lone couple ...... for in doing so tens of thousands of people were released from their prison and have found lives of freedom :)

Ex 10 I understand what you are saying about the *shame* factor.... I never was able to bring myself to tell my family of the conduct of the pedophile that lived next door when we were growing up....I was over 40 when I spoke of it here for the first time....I was amazed at how much shame I still carried.....so I understand not telling anyone....not thinking that anyone would believe me.... I understand stuffing it way down deep inside ...pretending like it never happened ....and just not *going there* in my mind. Now couple all of this with the perpetrator being the man of God...the one you trust to lead you to a closer walk with God.... To be made fun of and to feel like you were some how not *spiritual* enough if you couldn`t *handle* it. It is not about sex.... it is about ultiomate betrayal ... betrayal of a child like trust that we placed in the ministers who promised to lead us to God and show us how to find ALL of lifes answeres.....It is about being young and naieve....trusting God and his leaders believing their motives to be as pure as our own.... I read one poster who was a victim of child sexual abuse from a very young age and then a victim of vpw`s drugging and assault as a teenager who once said (I hope that it is alright to repost this) that of the two betrayals....the one committed by the minister who won her trust and was claiming to offer her healing ....was by far the most devistating. This stuff IS devistating and these guys didn`t care. If you acted like you were going to tell...you were accused of posession....and all believers...even family members warned to have no contact. Not only did you deal with the shame of not being *spiritual* but you had to deal with suspicion and astracizing from everyone you knew and loved. This stuff is deeply damaging....this is unfathomably evil to me....THESE guys who committed these actions ....have NO remorse or understanding of the damage that they personally inflicted....or da mn em...they WOULDN`T be telling people to just shut UP and move on They still haven`t come to grips with their evil conduct or they would be down on their knees begging forgiveness...

BINGO! ...he is faithfull and just to forgive us AFTER we confess and ask ....and never before :) I think that this is a very necessary part of the eqaution. Free from Cults.....Sometimes I wonder if the automatic forgiveness deal can be a coping mechanism so that one doesn`t have to address the issues created by really evil people. Groucho.....Damned straight they would still be housing and enabeling a pervert if Paul Allen hadn`t held their feet to the fire... You have to wonder just how many MORE people would have been used, how many more lives devistated...How many MORE people would still be in bondage in that cult .... if Paul A had just shrugged his shoulders...forgiven Craig and walked away.....

Ya gotta wonder why God requires us to repent and ask before HE grants forgiveness.....if there isn`t something very important and integral that we don`t understand in the process...which requires this. Why doesn`t HE just grant automatic forgiveness and eternal life for any and all no matter how heinous they behave? You`d think that having created us ...that he would understand our susceptibilities to sin and forgive us anyway.....but no he REQUIRES repentance and asking for forgiveness .... apparently there is something very necessary in order for it to be granted....and I DON`T think that is because he wants to punish... I dunno why there would be two seperate definitions of forgiveness and how it functions. When God quits requiring an apology, and repentance, then I guess so will I. In the mean time I don`t feel guilty for not forgiving them when they haven`t met the criteria....they behaved like scum...they are still behaving like scum....I owe them nothing, not EVEN forgiveness.

EXCEPT...there is that one sticky point about being required to ASK before we are forgiven....and in the scriptures we are not asked to forgive our brothewho has sinned against us UNTILL they repent and ask. I think that there might be a little more to it than what we were taught. If God requires repentance and asking before he grants it.....maybe that is how it works. Just a thought....but personally, I feel no compuntion or need to forgive these monsters....any more than I saw Jesus asking the people to forgive the saducees, pharacees, money changers and those who would hurt children..

John, thank you....I really hate being stupid... posting the same gramatical error over and over.....(I wish I had used the word *strange* instead as I almost did) .... .it is like having a booger hanging from your nose that everybody else sees....but few people care enough to point it out so that you can fix it :) Though it is embarrassing, you are always very apreciative that someone brought it to your attention. Thanks friend. Lol Loafing, sorry about that...sometimes this stuff bottles up and explodes all at once...and then you guys are stuck wading through all of the mire :) Ex 10... Christianity without the Christ....what a concept. That would explain a lot... Groucho, I think that you are right.....we were taught the word and then it was then used to imprison and hurt.....bewildering.

Thanks Bramble...I have to wonder if what we were taught was ever actually spiritually healthy, the way it seems to have created so many monsters.......I also have to figure out if it was even profitable ...given the damage caused ....even though scriptures were our passion. Penguine, Oh wow....that minister sounds like he has a handle on the ego thing.....it reminds me of the verse talking about knowledge puffeth up...charity edifies.... Knowledge in hindsight doesn`t seem to be that highly regarded in the bible ... it is all about how we love God/our neighbors/ourselves/children/strangers Isn`t it wierd...... how we believed that there wasn`t anybody out here in the world who could teach US anything? Good for you penguine!

Isn`t it wierd .... that really nice, decent, people were maligned and cast out of twi for seemingly minor offenses like...maintaining contact with family members....spiritual suspicion...questioning the leadership....writing papers on adultery.............while on the other hand tolerating people who indulged in adultery, at times covering for abusers....leaders who treated people with viscious cruelty on a regular basis....and even tolerated pedophiles? It strikes me as out of whack t that twi leaders regularly indulged in down right viscious abuse .....while castigating people mercilessly for the condition of their sock drawers and the tops of their refridgerators...don`t even mention ill health. Isn`t it wierd ... to assme that there is value in learning *the greatness /accuracy of God`s word* as presented in twi if this is where it eventually takes those whom master it? Isn`t it wierd .... that the *greatness/accuracy of God`s word* as it was presented taught by twi ....didn`t result in much charity, spiritual fruit ...the understanding and operation of the two great commandments....or an exhibition of other signs of spiritual health.....in those permitted to stay? Isn`t it wierd that there was so little use for the genuinely kind and caring ministers...I saw them deemed *weak* more than once. Isn`t it wierd tthe ones the most visciously hurting people, condemning them...and drawing them away from the love of God and our responsibilities as christians...even going so far as to deny them access totheir family members, their teachers ....the very body of Christ??? It just doesn`t make sense to me....if the word being taught was so great, so accurate.....if we were really understanding it.......how come the people who taught it were so cruel and those who were driven away from twi were the ones who tried the hardest to be meek, spiritual, and Godly? It seems like twi created a toxic environment for believers ........ this supposedly knowing, understanding and presenting *the greatness/accuracy of God`s word* Given the evidence of the scholars cruelty..... I have to wonder if what we taught is really THE *greatness* or if we can trust it as indeed accurate, given the results....or if we YET even understand it ..though we seem to have aquired an unparallelled knowledge of the scriptures :(

Scripturally we are warned quite clearly to stay away from people who demonstrate behaviors that identify them as *of the flesh* Some how, wierwille and twi managed to convince us that it wasn`t applicable to them....somehow they managed to convince us that actions CLEARLY condemned and people we are repeatedly warned against in the scriptures were not applicable to them. I suppose that is what makes a false prophet undetectable to the christians. They are able to turn people away from God and unto themselves...while sounding plausible.

((((tbone)))) as to whether or not women picked up on it easier? Not THIS one....I had no clue. I didn`t find out about this stuff untill after I left from some friends. There was a *suicide* thread not to long a that has some eye opening personal first hand accounts of women here at greasespot and vpw`s despicable conduct. The stories MUSN`T be swept under the rug because they show the TRUE nature of vpw and bring to light that a man who indulged in hurting so many....is not trustworthey, nor is can his perspective be relied upon. Learning of this conduct was what caused the scales to FINALLY begin to fall from my eyes. My first steps towards freedom.

DJS, My spouse left twi long before I did....He was wonderfull. He patiently explained to me that he didn`t think that twi was healthy at the root level any more, and that eventually the poison would work it`s way down to the local branch and twig level. I wanted to stay and fight to try to save it. He encouraged me to enjoy the local fellowship that was still so sweet for as long as it remained so....but to be aware and watchfull. He was correct, I attended for several more years with the kids.....and watched legalism and down right meanness increase incrimentally untill eventually fellowship and the people I had known and loved for over a decade changed into something unrecognisable. My spouse was patient and kind...but unmovable....I begged him to write his loyalty oath....to start serving again...thank goodness he had better sense then to listen to me. The thing that helped me the most in those tumultuous years was seeing the same genuine honesty and love for God, remain unchanging in my spouse ...a direct counter to what twi was telling me about leaving and the people who left.

Abigail, you make some great points. Also consider...what happened when folks DID toe the line...swear allegiance in order to stay active in the ministry....did his requirements stop at just moving the word? O heck no as I remember that was the beginning of more ever insane demands....time sheets... vacation sheets...finances monitered....implicit obediance in all matters or m&a....families required to sever all connections with one another.... LCM had no right to demand loyalty to himself or anything else....that is something that you earn from folks. I am with George, as tough as it was at the time...THANKYOU Craig.... that one single line in that rediculous letter was what FINALLY opened our eyes.

Eagle... WE weren`t paid employees....we were simply corpes on the field... doing the best we could to love God and support his ministry. He wasn`t paying us.... we were serving ... giving without stint....in addition to regular twi duties of time and , money, we wre proud to work at least one weekend many times more a month either at the limb or Emporia for years.... His belligerant demand, and subsequent viscious attack was completely uncalled for to folks who loved him in spite of his cavallier treatment of God`s people. His viscious declaration accompanied with biblical documentation of our utter worthlessness and wish for destruction was uncalled for in addressing people who had given their utmost for decades :( As far as your statement oldies, I am not making this crap up.....at the time it was a damned nightmare....I desperatly wanted the ministry to be ok....desperatly wanted to believe that God would work in craig and all would be well....... You are trying to minimalise what he demanded. We all know what an oath of loyalty to craig meant .... if you were honest. In no place did it say loyalty to God... No...Swear loyalty to me and the ministry that taught you God`s word.....pretty ominous that the only mention of God himself was to refer to standing with him as crap......which in hind site is pretty telling. Loyalty was always taught with the example of Dog soldiers staked out to die unmoving in battle. This was life and death jump when told don`t ask how high or how far....don`t doubt or question question or you`d sink like peter. We know that there were at least to and possibly three different letters sent out at different times to different folks ....ours recieved on the field was thelast and most viscious. This would explain your contradicting *reports* without having to call anybody a liar.

My current belief boils down to endeavor to love God and love my neighbor.....and everything else seems to fall into place. Beyond that I don`t know and don`t really care any more...None of it makes any difference in what my responsibility is here and now.

((((Eagle))) Please please do not feel bad.... I am just so glad that we all are beginning to understand that not everything was as it seemed. It wasn`t that we were unwilling to stand with the ministry, it wasn`t that we ever considered not supporting lcm..... We were sold out committed doulos`s and had never considered a life that didn`t have the ministry central and for most. We loved God, We loved his word We loved the ministry and We believed in our leadership. We would have done ANYTHING asked.....but that just wasn`t good enough....in the end we were maligned and treated as suspicious. Eagle, the sad thing is that you are entirely correct, had he aproached folks in a different manner the alarms wouldn`t have been raised.....But he was such a bully about it all.... belligerantly making demands and then throwing a tantrum like a two year old when he didn`t get the results he desired. In his second letter, it was a form letter I believe, sent to all who either hadn`t written their loyalty oath or hadn`t done it the way he wanted.... at the time it seemed like he was doing his darndest to hurt us by any means within his power.... He stripped fellowships away...stripped corpes status....called us vile names. It was very very sad. At the time, we grieved for the harshness that God`s people were being treated with....but still supported him and stood with twi for years....trusting God to sort it all out....in the end, they simply didn`t want us anymore. We were cast aside as worthless.

Dov for years I have read the posts of a very kind, conciencious man...a man that I could deeply respect, a credit to his system of belief. One who`s pov and input I considered to have great merit..... A man that would address issues with patience and gentleness....a man who could gently guide.....someone I thought of as a friend. I don`t know when or why you snapped this last year or what the trigger was .... but I miss that guy :(

Apples and oranges and you know it Dove.... Jesus was speaking to the pharacies who were hurting and stealing from God`s people....YOU are addressing your NEIGHBORS here.... Nice attempt to justify why it is ok to NOT to behave as a man of charater or why the fruit of the spirit being exhibited is conspicuously absent..... not to mention just down right decency. Come on Dov, it appears that we deeply offend you simply because we don`t line up with what you think a christian oughtta be according to wierwille/twi doctrine.........

I think that is one way to be able to maintain a clear conscience ....simply minimalise the enormity of the betrayal suffered so that it doesn`t seem like such a big deal.

Dove, a man of character and principle would still act like a gentleman, thereby achieing the respect for yourself and your pov that you desire. Further more, I would expect a genuine christian man of the spirit to act with the love of God....peace...longsuffering...patience.... meekness...gentleness...etc. in SPITE of any provocation....This is what sets Christians apart from the rest of the world who live by the flesh.