rascal

Dooj read the rest of that verse instead of just quoting part of it.......it SAYS *and when he REPENTS* to forgive him 70x7 it really does! That is precisesly what I am talking about....why does everybody want to ignore THAT part of the instructions??? I don`t know why we feel like we have to alter the way God says to do it... I think that forgiveness required is contingent upon that one little caveat. Maybe we can ASK God to forgive them because like Jesus when he said at his crucifixion that *they know not what they do* (though I think that they did) But then again...I didn`t see him saying *I* personally forgive you there either...it seeems that even HE had to ask God on their behalf .... God doesn`t forgive UNTILL we repent and ask... he doesn`t ask us to forgive our bother 70x7 UNTILL they repent....Further more when we are instructed that when we sin we are REQUIRED to apologise AND make resitution. He did say to pray for them who despitefully use you.....ok that I can handle... guess that I feel that decades of heartfelt prayer from tens of thousands of believers didn`t alter their evil course ...maybe I feel like they have had their quota from me ....

Keep us posted Seth dear. I know that health issues can be pretty scarey....it will be good to find out what is going on so that it can be addressed.

Pipes, you have stated it beautifully, don`t doubt your ability to communicate effectively. What you described is absolutely correct....I didn`t experience it so much in twi because the terror of another face melting or losing God`s favor kept me earnestly striving to the very limits of my ability. It happened to me when I left twi though..... I was married to a man who thought that he was helping me to be *better* with his non stop critiscism and complaints. If the house was clean ...it was pointed out that the yard needed work...if the yard was done and the house looked good...well the meal that was hurridly thrown together because of a lack of time was not very impressive.... It wasn`t even necessarily pointed out in a mean way....but there was ALWAYS something to do a little better.... If I did well in saving money in one area...it was always pointed out where I hadn`t done so well in another. I finally quit trying....I charted my own course and did what suited the kids and I ...figuring if spouse would yell complain whatever we did....so I quit keeping house....and hunted fossles if it suited us....I didn`t worry if there was dinner before the kids n I left for karate....I made sure there was enough clean dishes to eat off of....the kitchen may or may not have been clean....the laundry was never done...but enough clothes to wear at least that day....he started doing his own.... I simply didn`t give a damn any more because we knew that nothing would ever be good enough. The UP side is that though the house was no longer up to the former white glove standard....but my kids n I had gone to art classes, the library, found a 25,000 yr old 3 three toed horse tooth and the remains of an ancient indian campsight complete with flint and processed meat bones ...and a stone spade in a hole we dug. Lol....actually the dear spouse, though it has been difficult has changed with us and made a real effort at curbing his urge to constantly *improve* us.... I personally think that it has something to do with the ministry and in particular ...corpes training, as I visited a woman who had never been way and was quite puzzled with her former corpes husbands nit picking obsessively anal attention to details. This fellow was so bad that NONE of the boys in the neighborhood would mow their grass any longer at any price because of (in his mind) attempts to *improve* ie nit picking their job. Nothing they did was up to standard.... You are correct pipes, I see this with a lot of ministry people....on both sides...the *helpers* and those who don`t give a damn any more.

Not before you asked oldies....did he? I agree it IS simple.

Ex 10 that is a very good point....Lets see *love our enemies* depends on what *love* means in this context...feed em? cloth em? let em take everything ? murder our faamilies? pray for em? What does it mean? I remember the children of isreal as being mighty implacable with their enemies. I remember Jesus telling us to stay away from false prophets and those who handle the scriptures decietfully. I never saw him asking people to forgive the money changers of the pharacees...or the people who would harm a child. We of all people need to question WHY we believe what we believe....and Is it scriptural? We have seen first hand how the bible and scriptures can be used to ensnare and enslave. How verses with a little tweaking can destroy a person... Me.... I kind of wonder if it isn`t like having a dangerous pit bull in a pen... you don`t hate em... you keep em fed you water em...you don`t abuse them ....but after they have savaged someone....you never ever let them out or trust them....not without some serious change in attitude....maybe then you train them and allow them out on a leash....but your are responsible to protect people from that viscious dog. You warn people to stay away, you place signes all around warning innocent people...it isn`t about hate, but about protecting people from a viscious animal. It wouldn`t be right to forgive the dog and turn him out and go on our merry way because we just love him so darned much. ' He is viscious we know it and we are honor bound to protect any innocent bystanders.

Kit I respect you, God`s honest truth and I wouldn`t want to offend you for the world.....and I am not trying to be spitefull in my arguments.....but I am going to try to explain why I am troubled by what you wrote......This is what it seems like you are saying...it appears like a threat of us of *turning bitter* ....You`d better do this or else... to get me to give something to someone that is not theirs....that they have in noway earned or met the requirements to recieve. This reminds me way to much of how twi stole from us. I think every one who is quoting the verses on forgiveness are not taking into account the basic premise of what God requires in order for this to be offered. There is not a single definition or example scripturally where anyone has been able to point out that there are two different definitions or standards....for forgiveness.... I don`t see God cutting anybody any slack anywhere without repentance....on the contrary...people dropped dead left and right in the scriptures when they didn`t repent. I don`t think that we have the right to arbitrarily change the definitions or standards set out ... no matter how noble it may sound. I have not offered forgiveness and yet I do not feel the *poisoning of soul* that I have been repeatedly been threatened with. I Have to wonder if forgiveness without repentance does the one who has sinned any good .... We raise children to repent or face the consequences on a daily basis...why? because we don`t love them enough to forgive them? No, because we do love them and want them to apreciate the consequences of actions and develope into responsible law abiding adults with good morals and charatcer. My anger for the viscious treatment of ourselves ...the destruction of the lives of our precious brothers and sisters....by viscious thieves is implacable...HOWEVER ...it is directed at them and them alone....it does not affect the other parts of my life.... I think that the ominous danger threatened of being *bitter* if I don`t comply with someone`s idea of what they feel I ought to do in spite of how God shows....isn`t fair. Kit...this isn`t about me being subborn or unforgiving or bitter......I need to understand where in the scripture that the definition has changed before I will ever allow anyone to tell me I oughtta just because it sounds like a good idea.... I know there are scriptures telling us to forgive....they also tell us God forgives and though it doesn`t always add when the sinner repents...we know that it is required in God`s case........ but where does it say that our forgiveness is to be operated differently than his?

That is a wrong assumption dooj. I simply hold lcm to the standard that God requires in the scriptures. When he repents, I am honor bound to forgive him....like it or not. But then again....see I don`t HAVE a problem anymore with one who repents....we all mess up .... no doubt about it. A christian when they wrong their brother is supposed to not only repent but apologise and make restitution if possible. An apology ...an admitance of having done wrong would not be a big deal to a genuine christian. If one however, was still filled with arrogance and pride, if one thought he was still the mighty mog....unthinkable. If I understand people here....I OWE him and the other leaders forgiveness when they cannot even work up the decency to offer an apology? They owe ME an apology and God repentance...the burden is on them. I don`t see a problem if they are christians.

I don`t care about what you believe or the lable you slap on it ...or who you aligne yourself with dove, really....that is only important to you. My opinion of your beliefs or the validity of your truth is based entirely on the behavior that you yourself chose to exhibit pure and simple.... You made the claim of an unfair playing field...I in turn gave my opinion as to why people might not be receptive........or why I would not have respect for a particular pov no matter WHO was presenting it......you don`t have to accept it , or like my perception ...but there they are none the less.

No, Dove....you yourself placed yourself IN that camp when you repeatedly bemoaned your unfair treatment here to any who have anything nice to say about twi....you are making this something it never was. You have shown (as have we all) exactly who/what you are through what you post and in the way you treat people ... what EVER lable you chose to place on yourself...or how you percieve those around. The behavior or fruit exhibited by a person regardless of their belief system directly reflects what is on the inside friend...no wiggle room.

I suppose that is determined by ones perspective.

Well damn em for not taking onto account that they ought to have satisfied the interests of a curious observer for the salacious little details anyway How DARE they not open themselves to the derision and accusations of twi`s bottom feeding attornies...endured the shame and humiliation of a public trial so that folks could be more *informed*.... How very rude and inconsiderate for them not to take into account your interests and their responsibility to convince you personally of their veracity. Some how I got the idea that the lawsuit was about how they personally had been betrayed and wronged and getting lcm out of the position of power so he could no longer continue hurting people. Dunno in spite of your unrequitted interest.....the incredible shrinking twi gives mute testimoney to the effective and Godliness of their actions ....Seems like a victory to me. Wonder how many people have been spared grief with him gone.

I can`t figure out why anyone would think that the Allens owed them a trial or their settlement to charity?? in the court systems that they were wronged according to the laws of this country by lcm by the top leaders in twi....twi paid dearly for this.... Craig is gone.... 20,000 people are freed.... we get way dale and then greasespot...twi has to be kinder and gentle......it is a victory all the way around! Sounds like the hand of God at work to me :) It has to be some kind of record to be the catalyst that has freed so many people from a dangerous cult :)

Fulashidamiy ROFLMAO .... spewed coffee on this one... Sounds like much of what I taught in twi was quoted directly from that book ... :)

Snort .. I don`t yet understand nor have I seen a good explanation or definition of forgiveness that would make it ok to not do it the way God operates it with us.... it`s like God says THIS is what you must do to recieve forgiveness...and then we say...ohhh but I want to do it this other way anyway because it makes me feel better. I don`t have a problem with folks forgiving without repentance...but without some solid scriptural back up to explain why we aren`t going to do it how God does....I won`t be doing it. Why doesn`t he forgive US without repentance...is HE being hard hearted? Wouldn`t HE need to do it for himself? It feels kind of arrogant to assume that we ought to do something that he is unwilling for some valid reason to do. Have you guys noticed that he said clearly about our brother who sinned against us? It is when our brother REPENTS that we are to forgive him....ever wonder why that is in there if it isn`t vitally important to all parties? I don`t feel I owe em a damned thing... matter of fact ... it feels like yet one more thing being required of me to be blythly taken by them ... that they don`t deserve and isn`t theirs anyway.

And now you are saying because Jesus rebuked satan in peter ....that is why we your neighbors here deserve to be treated with a lack of respect ???? Why not then just begin each post addressing us with Get thee behind me satan, if that is how you view us? Olive branch? ...geeze forget it.... Your *mild irritation* has been pretty hurtfull at times and led to some mighty ugly personal attacks. .. guess I`d hate to see down right irrate. <_< I just don`t give a damn what you or anybody else lable themselves OR what their system of belief is anymore ...it is and always has been how you personally treat people that is important ... this more than anything else is a direct reflection on ones belief system....... It shows the world what you have inside and whether it has merit. Like it or not it is also how folks identify you as a christian. If any system of belief, I don`t care what it`s lable....causes it`s adherants to ignore basic human decency not to mention good manners ....that is the participants perogative.....but it is then pretty unrealistic to expect to win any popularity contests or unanimous respect for one who presents their pov, no matter how valid ... in this manner.

In todays world if you cheat.....you are not only foolishly putting your own life at risk...but you also have endagered your spouse unbeknownst to them, and without their consent. This is inexcusable. There is no provication that makes the exposure to a slow and horrible death without their knowledge and consent acceptable. It isn`t honest and it isn`t fair....if you need more excitement then get out of the marriage so that you are not putting anybody else at risk with your stupidity.

It is all about growing up and accepting responsibilty for the greater good of the family....to do so and sulk because it isn`t fun is immature and simply another excuse for cheating imo. A person of character sucks it up and gets the job done even when it stops being fun. Anything else is nothing more than an excuse to cheat. If you aren`t willing to grow up...then get the he ll out before you destroy those whom you have pledged to cherish and protect.

Agreed dear ((((wing nut)))) I didn`t mean to pick on the guys.... They work their tails off to support their family and then the wives feel neglected and find THEIR entertainment elsewhere...... It is all about selfishness and immaturity...and then attempting to shed the shame and guilt by blaming the non cheating spouse.... *well YOU made me do it* <_<

Damned right mo....that says it all.... *I* instead of WE

Thanks CW, I don`t mean to sound like I am whining I know that many others have had it a whole hell of a lot tougher..... It just angers me that I would be expected at 44 to compete in a beauty/personality contest with some shallow little strumpet that has nothing better to do than fix herself up to entertain a man. Face it at my age....dress me up..... take me to the hair dresser ...get a body wax....spend a fortune on plastic surgery....n dammit I am still a 44 yr old woman who has carried 7 children... trying to compete with a 20 yr old. I guess that these are GOOD reasons to grow the he ll up first before folks get married. Or decide to shorty afterwards.... It simply isn`t ABOUT you two and what you want/like any more after the children come....the priorities must change....it is about binding together to get a sometimes messy ...mostly wonderfull ...very rewarding endeavor of raising children into productive healthy adults. That is what people of character and principle do...They stick to the commitment made ...EVEN when it isn`t fun... The rewards will come at a futire date and they are far greater than when we indulge in our own selfish whims....without consideration to the impact on those whom you have pledged to cherish and protect..

P.S. By *you guys* I am referring to the cheaters who blame their spouses appearance for *making* them seek companionship <_<

I have a real problem with the idea that a woman needs to keep up appearance and be sexy to keep her man.... See what happens when the fellow keeps his wife continuously preggers for years....it begins to take it`s toll... nurturing the kiddoes, keeping the house up to snuff...laundry...dinner on the table on time when he walks through the door...etc. Enter a single gal who has no children to get off to school in the morning so she has the luxury of an hour to herself to apply makeup and fix hair... she has no children to provide for so she has money for manicures and the newest fashions.....she has no worries of preparing dinner for a family and dishes afterwards....so has plenty of time to be *fun* in the evenings....her body has not been stretched out of shape in baring his children....she has not been up all night agonizing over a sick child so she has plenty of energy and enthiasm for *fun* No doubt about it she IS more fun....so the husband leaves his wife who has somehow become boring and his children selfish enough to want a little time with Daddy in the evenings. This happened with my father....he left his wife and four young children because his sexy girlfriend was more fun...and HE needed to do what he needed to to make himself happy....and he did... They had a great life together traveling the world.... To bad so sad about his children left devistated forced to grow up without the protection or nurture of a loving father....and a mother whom was so broken and bitter about being left holding the bag raising HIS children....while he left for his exciting adventure...that it was years before she could come out her fog and raise them. To bad though she tried desperatly Mom just couldn`t compete with *fun* girl .... but the playing field was unfair...the handicap being placed on her by the very man who then found her lacking. My sisters husband did the same damned thing when she became overwhelmed with the responsibility of raising their children and working full time because he couldn`t keep a job.... Damn it....sometimes guys need to grow the he ll up and take care of business rather than figuring spouse *owes* them *fun* and sexy bodies and a 24 hr a day sparkly scintillating interaction. Please consider that we are raising your kids, they are sapping OUR youth OUR vitality OUR resources and time ...how about pitching in ..putting your shoulder to the wheel and participating in the responsibility of raising YOUR children instead of sulking about how we need to make ourselves and be sexier for you . I PROMISE you that it will be a more fullfilling and meaningfull life than with *fun* girl...<_< Geeze I want to shout to ...PLEASE just grow UP and start pulling your share of the load instead of being part of the burden placed on your spouses shoulders....

For some unknown reason...God requires us to repent and ask before HE grants forgiveness. Jesus said to forgive our brothers WHEN they repented.... Yet we are supposed to just pronounce someone forgiven without them completeing the apparently necessary first part of the equation... I have yet to see anyone explain why forgiveness would have two different meanings or applications.

Ohh GEEEEZE John...what an a$$.... Po`ed because the wow`s eat p&b sandwitches..... and blame it all on the wows who struggle to live on 20 hrs a week, pay for housing pay for living expenses and it`s ALL their fault because they didn`t believe for STEAK!!! It couldn`t possibly be that their formula or program had a few flaws???? Don`t tell war stories...in other words...LIE so that people won`t be afraid to make the commitment to go.... Oh geeze ...if that wasn`t twi in a nut shell :(

Couldn`t be an innie and no need to try to market it to innies because we all know that INNIES have no money :( It chaps my a$$ that twi is able to sell off alla the stuff that was bought with our money and still make a profit...this is just at the end of a long list....rome city, Emporia... I am a bit suprised that they didn`t place more value on such a big piece of ministry history.