rascal

First, my honest heartfelt thanks you to you folks for your defense on my behalf ... you are heros in my book. Lindy, You are right.... The first teaching that I remember on the wow field was about obeying leadership unquestioningly. The example was of peter walking on the water....while he obeyed Jesus (his leader) and stayed focused on him.... when he looked at the circumstances ...he sank. It was emphasised that we should always obey our leaders no matter WHAT our 5 senses told us...that we would be blessed...even in the unlikely event that the leader was wrong...God would have to honor the commitment of our hearts. Throw in the teachings about what happens when people didn`t obey their leadership/God ....yikes Once the commitment to go corpes...to become a doulos (sp?) was made....you were expected to obey every *suggestion* that was uttered from leaderships mouth or you were deemed stiff necked...un meek...hard hearted. The threat of being thrown out of the corpes ...held much fear because we were taught that to leave the protection offered by God`s household would mean possible posession...possible death and the loss of all of your accrued rewards. Pretty scarey consequences for non compliance of a commitment that lasted for a life time. Certainly more than we bargained for.

My friend has corgi`s ...she bred them for years....they are SUPPOSED to be excellent with children as a breed standard....but she has one odd ball that though beautifull ... she has never allowed to breed beacuse he isn`t good with kiddoes. I think they work very hard to keep the breed to a good standard.

What bothers me more than the insults is that I don`t seem to be able to post personal experience without the thread becoming completely derailed ...People get so turned off by the bickering that the whole point of the thread invariably gets lost....eventually to be consigned to the soap opera forum. I feel like many times important points and information have gotten buried and forgotten when this has happened. I would like to try to get this thread back on track because I think that Lindy and others have made some very valid points...I am sorry that my participation has derailed it.

OPh, and bow, Kathy Lee Bates definatly would be perfect ...it`s the eyes :)

Lol great question Belle... My kids SWEAR that I am a dead ringer for *yoda*...they even call me that. This isn`t as unflattering as it appears on the surface though....they say that I am diminuative in stature and appear to be harmless. ..about as round as I am tall....but when danger presents itself ...I fly into action with amazing speed and dexterity.... gracefull and powerfull with my martial arts technique......and God help the person that has been foolish enough to push me to the point of needing retaliation.....lol

I am sorry that I miss read you dooj, I should have known better than to think that you would say that. Lindy thankyou, I had better clarify that technically, I am not a corpes grad either ...I was app for two years and then married a grad....making me spouse corpes. My experiences were concerning what occurred after applying and during my app years years in the program...so I thought relevant to our discussion at hand. As far as relating my experiences as app corpes on the wow field...it was never intended as a bid for sympathy ...I was trying to point out that what the reality of the corpes commitment was shown to mean when I tried to withdraw from the program.....verses my understanding of the program when I applied. Radar, you may be right, but oldies has called me a liar at least 3 different times on this thread alone for simply relating my personal experiences. I don`t think that is ok.

That was how it was presented to ME by my leadership oldies, Yeah it WAS a bunch of horse sh1t .. I was just foolish enough to to believe that their claim that they spoke for God :(

Snort ... I don`t suppose it is concidered a *tempest in a tea cup* if you were the one who had been told by the leadership that you had been taught MUST be obeyed.....that God required you to abort a child in honor of the vow that you made. Sadly, I am ashamed to say that I was a good doulos....I aquiessed to what the lc said that my responsibility to God was...I remained in good standing with God and the ministry that was teaching hios word <_< No it certainly didn`t FEEL like much of a *choice* when the alternative is being outside of God`s will and ability to protect you because of a broken promise....a lie Maybe it is a little more personal and emotional when it is YOU who are lying on that table preparing to have your child destroyed ... while you desperatly run scripture retemories through your mind so that you can`t hear your inner self screaming .....so that you cannot think about what is about to happen and get tricked by satan..... and *chicken out* again.... Yeah we are out now...lets DO clebrate ..... what the hell is one more dead child sacrificed in God`s name? Sorry dooj, I am not angry with you...I AM angry with what we were required to do in order to be obediant to God.

Thanks for the corroboration Tom...this stuff is just too crazy to make up :(

Oldies, I have nothing to gain by making this up. I understand that it is so outragious as to be unbelievable... but it happened AS stated. It would be nice if you could make your points without resorting to personal attacks.... I can only relate my personal experiences with twi leaders in my circumstances....I would like to do be allowed to do so without you calling me a liar.... Thank you

Lol, I sure didn`t, but I guess that I am tempted to think so now oldies.... what ELSE would one call a fellow who would presume to know what had been taught/required/threatened to another by twi leaders in their interactions with someone when he wasn`t present ...nor ever in even remotely similar circumstance I don`t make this stuff up....I would have been much happier if twi HAD been as you painted it oldies.

Well dooj, I suppose that maybe it is because what we understood our commitment to be vs the reality of what would be required ..... are in direct contradiction to what some folks WISH to believe concerning the ministry that we one time supported whole heartedly. If their perceptions are correct....those who`s experiences differed must be liars. If their perceptions are mistaken.....one must admit to having been mislead. I think that it is very hard to come to grips with being wrong about something that we passionatly supported at one time.

I will agree one hundred percent that the printed matter gave a particular perception to the people to whom it was marketed..... The reality of what was required and what was meant by *life time of christian service* was only found after having made the committment..... I repeat, we were never informed that it was an unbreakable, invioble contract/promise/oath/vow to God....failure of which to complete would be regarded as having LIED to God and would be met with dire consequences possibly as severe as death ....as demonstrated in the case of annanias and saphira. I am not making this sh1t UP... I wish to GOD that twi and the corpes had been what it was presented to us as being.... I dearly wish that we really did have the options that you believe were in place....I wish to he ll that my experiences really WERE all lies :(

Pond it IS about you when you state your assumptions concerning a program in which you never participated in and draw your conclusions concerning other peoples personal motivations about which you have no personal knowledge. Your personal assumptions and judgement of peoples motivations are in direct contradiction to the experiences of people who DID actually participate in the program.

Does anybody else besides me find it ironic that vpw himself...who`s NAME is on that friggin autitorium ... made such a BIG effen deal when he resoundingly condemned the church ministers for putting their teachings down on paper??? Remember how he said Satan read the paper that he put his teaching on in his desk at night and then worked all night long on the congregation to insure that the teaching wasn`t recieved sunday morning. Remember vpw proudly proclaiming that he didn`t know what he was going to say untill he actually got up to teach and that way NOBODY could be prepared against it??? Can you imagine for one miniute the expression on his face if he saw entire teachings read word for word off of a pre planned .. pre aproved teaching???? OMG he would absolutely go balistic :D Not that I believe him....but I find it hugely funny that twi has come SO far away from what vpw deemed vitally important...lmao Going to the victor paul wierwille autitorium to hear a teaching READ....too ironic.

Lol cool chef...TOO true HOWEVER...the kids all work and save their money to care for their own pets... The horses eat a lot of Grass The big booger is my enormous vet bill....shots wormings ,...the occasional emergency ...but since everybody pitches in...the costs aren`t too bad.

Needy? ..driven to find a home? How about simply wanting to be a Christian..Wanting to be a blessing to God and to people? How about wanting to be a force for GOOD in this world and mistakenly believing that by seeking to serve God...we could find the best way. That deep desire to be a *good* person to be someone who made a difference in this world and in peoples lives... THAT is what was extorted and betrayed. Sometimes I feel like you judge some of us and our motives unfairly cynical and harshly, pond.

Oldies, I am talking to the people who pass judgement on personal assumptions concerning events which they NEVER participated in or experienced....call them whatever you will. I am talking to the people who ignore personal testimony and experience in favor of thier own pet theories based on those personal assumptions....call them what you will. Dove, I dunno how you can decide what the *intent* of the program was, having never actually participated... assuming that the brochures presented to the public in order to entice participants during a particular time frame would be a factual presentation of the program. You have heard personal testimony from participants here who participated....what they were told and what was then later expected......there by debunking the illusion about what was meant by a *life time* of Christian service. You are simply spouting the propoganda that was fed to you....you have a choice to continue to believe the propoganda or hear the testimony of what was required of those who participated.

Pond, that is why you don`t understand.... you didn`t actually sign up thinking that you would be required to give up child/spouse/ etc. You only found out AFTERWARDS that you had made a vow to God. You only found out AFTER applying that there was no bcaking out....if you DID ...they had all kinds of scripture describing why God required this of us and what would happen to those loved ones or ourselves if we broke that commitment. It wasn`t about wanting corpes bad enough to do those things...it was about being terrified of the consequences that they threatened would befall should we back out of our promise to God. Twi I could have said no to...leadership I could have said no to as well ....but God...I couldn`t bring myself to disobey....I was terrified of what trying to live without his hand of blessing and protection upon me. Twi lied about what God required and what the consequences of not completeing the training.

You base your premise and assumptions Dove, on your personal impressions on one of many changing publications through the years. Not on actual experience.... you want to attempt to disavow other peoples personal experience here with your private impressions disregarding the personal testimony of several here who experienced first hand the change of defininition and the ever changing moving of hoops.

NONE of those were presented as an option oldies, it was as I related...non compliance of commitment = breaking a vow to God ...spiritual death to be followed by probable physical death...as in with a&s I KNEW that I had messed up....I DID write a letter and attempt to withdraw from the corpes.... Your answere and opinion is uninformed and your assumptions ignorant of the facts in the case of failure to comply ... because simply and honestly.... YOU weren`t there...... YOU don`t know what was said what was written...and YOU don`t know what was threatened....or the irisistable pressure applied. The ONLY people who ever saw this side of craig and twi were the ones who attempted to withdraw from the corpes committment. I don`t know if it was always this way....but this is how they treated corpes in the mid 80s.

Are you SERIOUS dove? You never went in the corpes but presume to speak as to what we were told BEFORE entering the program in the promos and info sessions...in the meetings held in our states and at the roa for those interested ....concerning what the corpes program was .... and then get slammed after entering the program with the reality of the hoops being moved......the bait and switch tactics??? Good grief, you have no business assuming the voice of authority in this matter....you just weren`t there. You are completely ignorant of what happened after enrolling in the program.... I am telling you....there was NO information presented concerning this being an inviable, irrevocable oath/vow to God that was unbreakable under any circunstances. Course I didn`t KNOW this either untill I failed to get the required classes during my 1st app year. THAT is when the teeth come out....THAT is when you find out that you made a vow not to the ministry ...but to God Almighty. THAT is when you find out the fate that awaits spiritual losers who fail to get it together.... It gets worse.... When I attempted to withdraw during my 2nd app year .... due to an unplanned pregnancy.....I dutifully sent a letter explaining my change of plans into the corpes coordinator... THAT is when you recieve vitriolic letters from craig...the head of God`s ministry himself..... that threaten you with the consequences of breaking a commitment to God. THAT is when you are accused of being a liar to God.......and are threatened with the consequences of lying.......Annanias and Saphira anybody? THAT is when the teeth come out and the pressure is applied. You then find out that simply dropping out isn`t an option....that your life and the life of the child is unimportant....GOD almighty requires you to honor the commitment you made no matter WHAT the cost.... You then find out that pregnancy is simply viewed as a distraction...a ploy from Satan to trick you out of honoring your vow.... You are horrified to find that it is assumed that you will abort the child in order to avoid allowing Satan to win in the spiritual battle. It is then that it dawns on you that there is no honorable way to leave once you are committed... it IS for life....it is to God.....but twi is the one who speaks for him and makes the decisions..... Most folks didn`t get to this point where craig had to pull out the big guns....they blythly entered the commitment assuming that they had some freedom, assuming that this was the best way to serve God...as they had been told.... in whatever endeavor one chose.... I think most folks didn`t see the ugly side of twi unless/untill they failed to produce :(

I`d have to say ALL of them :) I haven`t met a critter that I didn`t like. I tend to have a soft spot for strays.... Each has their own unique characteristics. I have always been a devoted German shepherd fan...I have 4 now, (two are rescues) but have come to adore my daughters great dane as well....the sweetest gentlestmost well behaved creature.... My sons mini rat terriers are sweet as well, so ferociously couragious for only weighing 8 lbs...lol........always lying at my feet ....where ever I sit.....My daughters cat always waits for me to settle at the computer or tv in order to sit in my lap. She is the only one that comes into the kitchen to keep me company while I do dishes ...she sits on the counter every night offering her input .... there are three other cats, each have their personalities....but this one is special, she was a bottle baby that we raised for the vet and adopted when we returned the rest of the litter. Horses are incredibly intellegent kind creatures when one takes the time to understand them....My dear mare took such pride in keeping me safe ... one time she beat the daylights out of a donkey that had jumped the fence while we were on a trail ride when he started acting like he was going to hurt me....she whipped him soundly, ran him off and promptly returned to pick me up and continue our ride....she never jumped or acted silly, no matter how alarming a situation became .... when I was on her back...I used to put the toddlers on her to keep them out of trouble and she would follow me around the yard.....always mindfull of the precious cargo on her back.... I had a wonderfull pony that used to protect the children that she always assumed were her charge as well...I saw her protct them even while under attack by a swarm of bees that would have sent any other horse bucking and running into the next county.....one time when the children were riding her up a hill...I heard a strangled cry....when I turned to look....dear casey had frozen... one child had been caught by the neck in the crack of a tree branch and was lifted right off of the ponies back..hanging and choking....the other child was hanging on to the first.....I watched that pony look and them back up a couple of steps to return right undernieth where the kids could drop back down on her back.... We have leopard geckos that are charming....they love to be stroked and ask to be fed....My son has a huge iguana that is pretty funny with his antics.... We love birds, but thy haven`t fared well in this drafty old farm house in the winter time.... My son enjoys his hamsters, always has a new batch of babies and is adding on to his city of cages... The boys have aquariums full of fish and several tanks of different water turtles.... My daughter has recently aquired the most charming little african spur legged tortoise...it will grow to possibly 140 lbs and live 100 plus years....right now she sure is cute, smaller than the palm of my hand and quite friendly. I cannot say that I have a favorite type. I have had the great fortune of two soul changing lifetime blessing animals like you mentioned with your dear Emmit, chaz. One was the shepherd cross who traveled with me through my ministry years after high school and my tennessee walking mare. I loved these two as much as any human being that I have ever met....and grieved (still do) over them as dearly loved family members when they passed.

I WISH I were ???? A man of good moral character and personal integrety simply IS the man he knows to be....regardless of the situation and circumstances....no excuses. It is the very least that we would expect from a christian...not to mention a man who desired to be a minister to God`s people. Sounds to me like he was whining up till the very end....rather than actually taking responsibility for his life and actions and actually BEING the man he knew to be. Strikes me as being a very weak person.

Damned good point sky rider ...