rascal

I haven`t been able to even get into chat for a couple of days...sometimes there simply isn`t a catagory/button to go there. Yesterday I saw that there was the regular heading ...and I could see that there were people in there, but clicking on the chat room button wouldn`t let me in. Should I begin to take this personally yet :)

..and that would differentiate vpw how from a false prophet or wolf in sheeps clothing? Do not false prophets use scriptures? Do they not rely on the subtlety of their disguise? Do they not ALWAYS have doctrinal bases in order to silence the cries of protest? The danger that I see is in ignoring a *dead mans sins* is that this dangerous doctrinal basis will be promoted and continued ....hurting yet more innocent souls.

Play God? What a rediculous statement. One that appears to be designed to make it safe to ignore clear scriptural instruction. You simply seem to be uncomfortable with the exposing of the sins/behaviors/fruit that unquestioningly reveal vpw to be a man of the flesh...incidently a fact which looses him credibility as a minister or a teacher. I can only surmise that folks still need so desperatly to still feel *right* and special, that it is unbearable to think that contrary to our fondly held image we held of ourselves as super conquering Christians.....with ALL of our knowledge........we were in reality foolish.......that we were betrayed and tricked into serving darkness....and thrown away like so much garbage when our usefullness exhausted. The need to still feel special is so important, that tsometimes we will readily employ any means to dismiss the evidence of the true nature of the source of our beliefs.\ Just my opinion, but the only reason that I can figure out why people insist on covering/hiding/ignoring the pain and devisation this *dead man* caused ...... CK, your statement is based on no facts or experience to back it up. I am trying to be patient because my daughter is almost your age and I understand where you are coming from. I respect that you believe strongly .... I wish that you would at least investigate the source of your belief before ferociously defending an evil man. I do not see how you can say that God was a source in twi when you know that our sisters in Christ were drugged and raped, that our brothers lives were destroyed....our children abused and molested and our unborn babies killed. If God was in twi....why on earth would he call people to that??? Didn`t he have for knowledge? Wouldn`t he know that someone would die by following twi leaders orders??? IF vpw was a false prophet however, it makes all of the sense in the world....use scripture to disarm the warey....to quiet the fears ...use scriptures to clothe your form and move among the flock disguised .....and then to steal, to kill, and to destroy....the srcriptures describe them as revening wolves. You are laying some pretty ugly actions done to some truly wonderfull people who seeked only to love and serve God....bsed on your unsubstantiated personal opinion son. Please educate yourself a little better.

How very frustrating <_< I hate that twi gets away with so much just because of the mega bucks that they have ( that ironically WE gave them) to pay their scummy attornies. Damn, I begrudge every morsel of food that they put in their lying perverse mouths and every square of toilet paper that they use to wipe their nasty selves and every stitch of clothing on their unthankfull backs..... because every bit of it is bought with hard earned money that was generously given by people they have decieved, and betrayed :( .

ckmkeon, you would be wise to aprise yourself of Chris Geers evil actions and councels before YOU passed judgement on what Rum runner posted. You are defending a man who committed very great evil to many. The insanity of this man is quite obvious to any who familiarise themselves with his actions. There are first hand accounts right here at greasespot. To defend people without knowing how vile they have treated the believers is foolish.

EXACTLY Loafing!!! Either there is more to it then what we understand in romans, or people really can *switch* sides as you stated it. Think of just how many people who sit`s in twi ... who manifest nothing but the fruit that galatians says unquestioningly brands them as *of the flesh* and there for having *no inheritance in the kingdome of God* Honestly consider how many people in twi sit`d and yet served satan? I don`t think that even with our scriptural knowledge aquired in twi that we accurately understand yet the spiritual walk.

Doggone it, I hate that those officious oafs are ruining that special day for those kids :( I don`t think these guys have any conception that it is about the couple and making their day memorable. It is all about the ministry leaders recieving their ego stroke <_< I wish that everyones wedding could be made as special as the believers and leaders who worked so unselfishly to ensure that ours was.

Mine was a ministry wedding. It was incredible, the branch turned out and helped with everything. They made my family feel welcome and like visiting dignitaries. They made my spouse and I feel like royalty. Everything was beautifull, the church was rented, the tuxes, the pianist hired, the room rented at the holiday inn for the reception....the food bought the flowers ready....the whole branch to be there...family flying in from all over the united states....the ONLY fly in the ointment is on the monday before the wedding our lc is called to the infamous clergy meetings :blink: Huge wedding planned and no minister...yikes! Talk about a stressed out bride.... We ended up getting married in a small private ceremony at the house with our bridle party on weds and lc since he was the only one who could legally do it. We then had one of Mark corpes buddies preform the one that everybody attended. I felt so sneaky, all of these people traveling for a wedding when we were already married...but what`s a bride going to do? Both services were wonderfull, the believers in the branch were incredible...the reception afterwards a joyous event, we rode to the reception in a carriage and we put a corsage on her and even snuck my dog in :) Wish I knew where alla those folks are today to thank for making our day so special. I felt like the luckiest girl alive that day :) Having two ceremonies must have worked....it will be 20 yrs and 7 kids ago in Nov.

Free Lady, you sound like a really nice person. I wouldn`t want you to feel attacked or uncomfortable here, but I would like to ask you some questions if that is ok. Have you familiarized yourself with the teacher of that class? Are you aware that the things that *weren`t quite right* went to him as the very source? I think that if you understood the magnitude of his cruelty and abuse, you might not be so willing to trust his spiritual/doctrinal pov. Folks here didn`t get cynical over night. ...So before I promoted ANYTHING that this man (or anybody else for that matter) published, I would darned well get to know him better....lest you be guilty of leading people into darkness and bondage in SPITE of your best efforts. I am not trying to be melodramatic, but if you didn`t stay with twi...you probably didn`t see the tragic results of where strict adherance to vpw`s doctrines took so many. If you are looking for good classes with great information untainted by the selfishness, alcoholism, sexual abuse and just plain ruined lives that vpw left in his wake....Why not try a healthy source? Kenneth and Gloria Copeland or Joyce Meyers comes to mind. When we had a fellowship at our karate school, there was a variety of really good solid biblical teachers to be enjoyed.

I was taught something mighty similar.....that if you left twi that you left God`s hand of protection....that you would die spiritually ...and then physically. You also would lose all of your rewards at the bema and would be so spiritually contaminated that you might get others posessed. No, technically not a revocation of son ship....but mighty close. You weren`t part of the household any more. You had to do an awfull lot of *WORKS* in order to stay IN fellowship and IN good standing with God and the household.....AND in order to recieve every award that you had earned in this life at the bema.

To corroborate your time line Tom, it was indeed around the week of Thanksgiving because our LC had to cut out of town to attend instead of performing our wedding ceremony on Nov. 21 st. (GREAT news to recieve on monday when you have 100s of guests flying in from all over the country for the wedding on saturday ) So if it was on saturday and sunday...that would place it on Nov. 21, 22, 1986 (that will make it 20 years ago this nov) I know also that John Townsend and Ricardo Caballero were all ready in place as new bot members because JT had left our state as a LC to take up his responsibilities the previous spring while I was a wow in Ks.

Dearest (((Belle))) Why wouldn`t your input be relevant and highly valued? My heart breaks for the frightened little girl who didn`t dare tell. My Mom asked me one time about someone seeing the nieghbor *hugging* me. I didn`t tell because I was terrified of my mothers anger. Up untill that point I didnt` know that there was something wrong... I haven`t ever told my Mom either Belle. I think that you are right about making darned sure that our kiddoes are comfortable talking to us about ANYTHING ...Which means no recriminations or anger when they come to us. I had to caution spouse when the kiddoes were young and they had to pluck up the courage to tell him that they had broken something and needed help. It was so tough to tell him that they had broken the light yet again...and he of course would get angry....not physically mind you....but his voice and tone. I had to ask him...HOW did he think that they were going to tell him when they were in REAL trouble as teens and young adults.....That if he continued being angry with them when they *messed up* over little stuff...they were going to try to hide and cover up when they were in big trouble, rather than going to him for help. Thank God that he changed his behavior immediatly from theharsh way we had been taught to parent in twi.

Thanks Kathy and Bow, like I said, I hesitated to post because my experience seemed pretty minor...enough so that it was dismissed and forgotten for a long time. As far as pedophiles? They themselves have said that they can`t be rehabilitated. I think that our children need to be protected. I guess I think of offenders as *broken* inside ... anybody who puts their pleasure .... sexual or otherwise as more important than the suffering and damage they cause, IS in my opinion. I think that since statistics show that most are not rehabilitatable, that our primary responsibility is to keep children safe...not just our children...but ALL kiddoes....I think that the pedophiles need to be locked away from society where they can not harm the kiddoes. I don`t care if you want to medicate them or councel them or try to help them...I don`t even necessarily bear them any malice....or want them punished I just don`t want them to have access to the kids. It seems to me that most pedophiles escalate in the behavior through the years .... I am thinking of some of the court cases on tv. That being said.....since this is not the case.....and most sexual offenders are not imprisoned for long it seems. The parents are going to HAVE to be responsible for monitoring and supervising the kiddoes activites 24/7. It is a shame that the kids cannot ride their bikes or play at the friends house or walk to the store for a soda...I don`t even leave my kids for theatre rehearsals or karate unless another parent that I trust is staying with their kiddo.... but that is the price that we have pay for trying to give the offenders fair treatment in this society. Damn (((CW))) I am glad that you didn`t chicken out. Chatty Kathy, maybe you are reaching beyond those prison walls you spoke of now in order to help folks in a significant manner.

I dunno Sprawled, in defense of our younger more foolish selves....many of us were awfully young and idealistic. It just never dawned on me that everyones motives in twi were not as genuine as my own. What a sucker...but jeeze....these people were teaching the bible for goodness sakes <_< It HAD to be a good thing in my mind at the time....

Chatty Kathy, do not doubt yourself girl. I cannot tell you how many posts that I have begun and erased on this thread. I wanted to write about what my next door neighbor did when I was growing up....but chickened out for all of the reasons that you listed above. The guy had a dog, I wanted a puppy more than anything in the world ... and I would go over there to play with theirs....I would have endured anything for the opportunity to play with that dog.... A little kid just has no frame of reference to understand that it is wrong. I knew that I didn`t like it, but just chalked it up as just one more wierd incomprehensible thing that grown ups did....like spankings and making you eat broccoli. He never caused any pain, so I was very hesitant to even speak of this in the context of the horrific abuse that some of you guys endured. Even so, I find it excrutiatingly embarrassing and shamefull to talk about. Add to that the time that I did mention it here in passing ...that I was labled *damaged* and a possible threat to myself and children <_< ...it makes it almost impossible to post without wondering if every word that you write will brand you as a lunatic in someone elses mind... I suppose that I want to address my comments to the parents that are so busy that they have no time or energy for their kids...to the parents who cannot manage to communicate with their kids without screaming or critisism....to the parents that cannot manage to work up an interest in what is going on in their kiddoes life...these can make children so vulnerable to the seduction of a pedophile. As a child, the neighbor and his wife took an interest in me, always spoke kindly, gave me an occasional gift...listened to my thoughts....treated me like a valuable individual...priceless to a child starved for affection and attention. My mom too...never thought a thing about letting me go on day trips with these guys... I do not think that I would have told on him even if I had known that it was wrong, because truth be known, in my young mind....they were a whole lot nicer to me than my parents were. I saw them as MY friends and I was fiercely loyal.... That is the incomprehensible part. I wonder now, just how many other children did he molest...did he bother my sisters...my friends? ...Sure it was just rubbing and touching with me...but did he go on to do worse to some other neglected innocent child? It wasn`t untill I became sexually active that it all came back and it actually dawned on me what he had really been doing...and by then he had long moved away....I always wondered if I should have found out where he lived and warn the neighbors...and yet was terrified by the thought. This is where the guilt and shame comes in....in my silence, I have condemned other children to the attentions of this pervert. I also remember as I neared teenhood after years of enduring his attention, I went with them on a hike somewhere in the woods....I suddenly became very dizzy and collapsed....*Erik* started unbuttoning my pants....even then, it didn`t dawn on me that something wasn`t right....in my fog, I thought that was a wierd solution for being dizzy... The wife suddenly was there while I was trying to push him away...and he quit....that was the last time that I was invited to go anywhere with them. Guess in hind sight, maybe I dodged a bullet...as maybe he was preparing to move things up a notch. I often have wondered if he didn`t slip me something judging how quickly that he tried to undo my pants...I don`t know, it just seems like a wierd thing to do if you weren`t expecting someone to become disoriented...maybe he was just taking advantage of an opportunity...I guess that it doesn`t matter. I guess that is why I am hyper vigilant with my kiddoes as well. They don`t go to their friends or even cousins houses to stay without me, because though I may trust the friends that I have known for years and my family members...I don`t trust their vigilance .....I don`t know their neighbors ... People strike me as amazingly oblivious to the dangers that their kids face....my family has been especially ugly to me through the years for my over inflated sense of over protectivness wher my children are concerned. I would also like to add to parents that evil sometimes can look very respectible. Pedophiles are good at making themselves attractive to children...it isn`t just about warning kids to be warey of strangers....but also in eliminating what makes a kid vulnerable... ie the time and attention, the feeling of being loved, of being special. I hesitate to minimalise what some of you as children have endure....by even saying this .... but I have always felt like the reason that I was vulnerable as a child to that pedophile....or as a teenager to any man who made me feel needed...and when I was introduced to the ministry that made me feel *important* all revolved around a lack of self worth generated as a child. I would like to try to make sure that any child ever in my sphere of influence feels respected, knows that they are treasured and important beings.

While Tenn hasn`t got the growth of Orlando or Tampa... We too engaged in the evil "D" word and bought a house....it took us 8 yrs to pay off a 15 yr mortagage....we have been living rent/mortgage free for over 6 yrs. We don`t have to worry about rent the rest of our lives and our property increases in value while we enjoy it. I am appalled that twi actively prevented people from enjoying this simple pleasure. Good for you guys not letting twi bully you our of your homes!

Oldies, it seems like you seek to minimalise the criminality and lack of Godliness in twi by attempting to point a finger of blame at another religious group entirely. What happened in another group had no bearing on twi knowingly harboring a child molester and placing him in a position of authority over families with children....

Speaking of mal pack.....Does anybody remember wierwille teaching that if the end came...that if necessary that we were to scarifice our children if necessary to survive, in order to make sure the word didn`t die?? We could always have more children :( How nuts is THAT? Surely a contradiction to the instructions biblical to parents :blink:

I dunno sprawled....Word wolf did a great thread a while back that covered a lot of the speculation on that ...Was it the way living and love book, or was it a thread particularly about vpw?

I don`t understand it....These people need to NEVER see the light of day again ...not just the ones that perpetrated these atrocities...but the people who participated in the web sight as well. There is something irreparably broken in these people that could destroy for their own pleasure ... and like rabid dogs....I am all for ridding the planet of these viscious destructive animals. Chatty, I am so sorry....Shell, I am speachless, I wish that I hadn`t read these disturbing accounts :( ...it is a sick world that we live in.

Woohoooooo !!!!!!! Just LOOK at my bad self !!! Thanks so much George and Bow!!! I LOVE it ....and OH my...just look at how fine YOU look dear :)

Didn`t work...

Whew Hawk, That is a tough one... I know your boy, I know how frustrating that it must be for you that he has ignored your instructions ... There has got to be some anger on your part that he is flouting your authority while under your roof and still your responsibility. I have no answeres, as I am dealing with teenagers myself. I know how dissapointed that I am when they say *no* in spite of all of the love and nurture that we have poured into these guys. It seems like they ought to have more respect for the parent that put their lives and finances on hold for the last 17 years in order to raise their ungratefull bu tts....sigh There aren`t any easy answeres friend ... I only understand that all teens seem to need to rebell as part of the growing up process. I just try my best to keep guiding and protecting in spite of their best efforts to get away.

Hee hee...Thanks George...it`s perfect Looks just like me....telling the kids to just *GO to your room* :) Someday I want to be puter savey enough to put a pic like that up under my name.

George can you PLEASE put a picture of Yoda up for me?