rascal

Incorrect how? Which assumptions?

Thanks Bride, I agree, get counceling, get better, but don`t expect to return to office. When we excuse this stuff as understandable, even acceptable because the spouse was such a bitch or whatever ...we are opening the door to any behavior is alright as long as we have sufficient provocation....Christians, those claiming to be anyway, should be willing to live as *of the spirit* instead of making excuses and casting blame every time they do not...otherwise it is just a pretty sounding lable we wear.

Absolutely Dot. I agree totally. We are not responsible for another persons inability to love, or rationalization for bad treatment, or bad behavior, low character and lack of morality, mental illness and refusal to seek healing...alcoholism etc. We can love them, pray for them, do all in our power to help them....but I do not believe for an instant that God requires us to stay with unkind, dangerous, or abusive people. I also believe that divorce is necessary, I think that adultery is cowardly, sneaky and dishonest. I tell my teens and now adult children to take their time and choose their life`s partner wisely.

Geemany Dorian, What I don`t understand about those who venerate wierwille solely because they liked teachings that they have heard....is what in the world that they THINK a false prophet would SOUND like... a wolf in sheeps clothing would actually LOOK like. They have to look and sound very very good in order to fool, to deceive. I know, I have been where your friend is, there really isn`t anything that you can do, but consider that you never know what seeds you have planted in her mind or when God might water and they germinate in her mind. All you can do is continue to share as longa s she will allow you. There is no telling what will be the catalyst in your friends mind. It was simply one line in one letter from lcm for my husband, it was excathedra`s story told years ago that was mine....It might be something that you have shared years down the road that will be hers. Don, that is terrible about Mrs. W. I always had the idea that she was a tried to be a good lady while stuck in very difficult circumstances. I am sorry that she suffered so. :(

You know? VPW blamed his wife too... I have heard it all before, I was even counceled, if I was ever struck, it was my faulrt for pushing the buttons and not shutting up...If my husband wouldn`t need to seek extra marital *comfort* if I was doing my job right.... Yeah, the woman let herself go, she wasn`t inovative enough in the bed room, yadda yadda...I think the adulterer will tell themselves ANYTHING to excuse and justify their own lack of morality and character. My father claimed that my mother was too busy raising their four young children, (his girl friend who had nothing better to focus on than making herself beautiful for him and making him feel like a king)....well she was much more exciting. It was all my Mom`s fault for not being nicer... People need to stop making excuses and blaming others for their own immoral choices. No, I don`t think divorce is wrong, I do think it is dead wrong when one member of the union just doesn`t want to pull their weight any more because the luster has gone out of raising their kids, paying their mortgage and buying groceries. Lot more fun to leave the partner holding the bag and run off with someone and pretend that you don`t have any responsibilities. How many people live with someone who no doubt would rightfully claim that their spouse has *let themselves go* but gee whiz...won`t allow them a dime. It costs a lot of money to maintain a fashionable wardrobe, to purchase cosmetics, to visit the hair stylist, the dentist for that perfect smile...etc If the wife tries to take a job to suppliment, so that she can wear something besides good will bargains...the the complaints that the house isn`t maintained to the proper standard, the meals aren`t made from scratch...or there is no help with the children... Believe me, if someone wants to whine and complain about their spouse, it is a whole lot easier and feels justifiable to step out and cheat with someone who`s moral standards and character are as low and dishonest as your own....the LOVING thing that one would EXPECT out of a spouse, much less a man claiming to be a christian...even MORE so a man who has the audacity to claim to want to guide people....would be to roll up their sleeves, and pitch in with the tough work of raising a family help lighten the load of the spouse so that they could look up from the dish suds, and over the piles of dirty laundry ... and maybe have the strength and energy to supposedly *maintain* themselves a little better. I am so sick of people excusing their immoral behavior, rather than having the character and fortitude to do the hard job of helping that person that you have promised to love handle the load that you yourself have placed on their shoulders. Try looking at why the person might have let themselves go, or become distant, or preoccupied, or frankly become so worn out that they just don`t GIVE a damn any more....rather than using that as an excuse to be immoral, and justify ones OWN lack of character. If you cannot do that, than have the courage and honesty to divorce rather than sneak around breaking your vows and destroying another....not only emotionally and mentally,. but possibly even bringing home a deadly disease to an innocent party. We need to hold each other to the standard and guide lines that we are given in the scripture. We are told that adultery is one of the characteristics of those *of the flesh* A person who cannot get this, who can rationalize why it doesn`t apply to them, has no business presenting themselves as a minister, and if they mess up in this area...it shows a moral lack of character that is necessary for one in whom we must place the trust of our spiritual lives. Sure, sure, I know that God forgives us...but that doesn`t mean that we are fit to be ministers.

Mark, considering that bible quotation was used to justify and enforce submition to vicious abuse, abortion, adultery, sexual servitude.....etc. I guess that scripture being quoted to substantiate a point or the rightness of one`s argument doesn`t hold much credibility any more. This isn`t about believing what we want to believe, it is about reasonable doubt engendered by the past and present conduct of a man who proclaims to be representing and serving God. I haven`t seen any indication that VF and his ministry is any different than the rest of the off shoots contaminated by twi doctrine. Untill I have seen that this isn`t the case, I will continue to view him and any others who venerate wierwille, who don`t tell the truth about wierwille with suspicion and mistrust.

I disagree, I have offered my opinion on why I wouldn`t find VF of ANY ex twi/off shoot leader believable or their doctrine trustworthy.. Being aware of the toxic and dangerous roots of his belief system, his lack of repentance, along with his refusal to publicly recognize and condemn the false prophet who led so many astray....combined with his continued of veneration of a man whom hurt so many many people....lead me to find him lacking in credibility and character....a man and organization to be regarded with suspicion. Jesus warned against the danger and hypocracy of the spiritual leaders who were harming people in God`s name. I see no difference in that and what we do. We were given guide posts by which to measure the spiritual quality of what which is unseen in people or groups. We have learned first hand what it means to ignore or dismiss those signs. Until I see change, a departure from the established norm of twi doctrinal contamination, I will remain suspiscious.

No Dove, what I DID was discuss why I would never deem the man or any man that was an off shoot leader or ex twi leader who hadn`t genuinely repented and apologized as unworthy of trust, Their doctrine makes what they did ok, they`re forgiven by God, nothing else matters, it`s in the past.etc....anyone who speaks of it is a liar of back biter.....Scripturaly, spiritually however, I don`t believe that is accurate. It is a huge indication and a big red flag indicating a lack of change where it matters the most. I never claimed to know him or be in his presence. I never claimed to be on par with Jesus, I only pointed out when oldies tried to accuse us of back biting and gossip that Jesus did the same thing in his day. Now, that is how I see things, that is my opinion on this subject, I would appreciate being allowed to present my pov, without it being used as a spring board for nastiness based on every other thing that you detest about me, ok?

Dove, your rant makes no sense whatsoever. Sorry, I think that either you are reading a lot of things into my posts that were never intended, or being deliberately ugly. This mix and match parsing of quotes made to different posters concerning different topics, together to manufacture a false premiss on which to attack in some kind of weird *gotcha* game is not honest, nor a very good representation of what you claim to stand for.

Yup ClayJay, and this particular oh so lame poster could jest FEEL da love oozing out of your post doncha know? :)) Seriousl friend....Do you really need a list of the personal accomplishments and activities of each poster post twi, the education, the children raised, their years in, verses their years of posting in greasepot in order to determine whether they have anything of importance or value to contribute here? Do you have a formula for figuring out what is of profit and what is not?? Man, I`ll bet the moderators on gs could sure use your help straining out all of the extraneous whining and complaints ....lol..Or how about a daily schedule to determine if we spend to much time here.... Theres an idea for a new forum a I guess... Who`s lame and who`s not :) Hi my name is Cathy and I am not lame. I believe that I am worthy to post here because......... Clay, if you ever return to read this, it isn`t a roast, just a light hearted poke at you for presuming to know us, whether or not we have beneficial lives, what is best for us, what is profitable to do with our own time and for our own enrichment :)

Tzaia, you are right. I think that sometimes, people can be so entrenched in the same thought processes that they have had for the last 30 years, surrounded by people that think and act just like they do, that they are truly incapable of conversation, discussion of ideas, substantiating their beliefs. I think that these guys really are uncomfortable talking to anyone that doesn`t readily agree with them...so one must therefor assigne spiritually dark reasons to substantiate ones lack of comfort in a given area.

You know Hap? I think that is EXACTLY what happens when nobody holds these guys accountable. When everybody licks up what the leader is currently dishing out, when everyone is told that to hold the leader accountable is to be considered back biting, or negative, or breaking lock box....when people pretend that it is all ok because it is in the past......etc Why WOULD one feel the need for genuine sorrow, for repentance,for making amends...to actually make the necessary changes in ones life to become spiritual?? Without genuine repentance the offender himself will never grow beyond where he is. It isn`t doing these fellow any favors to with hold the necessary criticism for their short comings as ministers.

Dove, your post and your accusations make absolutely no sense. Try reading WHAT I said IN the context written and comment on that instead of parsing sentences together made to different posters about different subjects in order to manufacture something I never said nor intended in order to attack me. Please, it is only honest.

This isn`t about taking swipes at VF because he was a big shot...I never knew him, enjoyed the few teachings that I did hear. Apparently, he knows now that we are here. He by now knows that there are folks here that have a problem with him, with twi based doctrine, with beliefs post twi. We aren`t a priority, I understand that, people never were in twi. He can label us nameless faceless internet nobodies, thus safely dismissing any responsibility to address issues, examine his actions or God forbid realize that his *answers* may not actually be correct. But God knows that we are real living breathing souls behind these monitors, pouring out our thoughts and opinions on these pages. If a fellow gave a damn about people or the wrongs of twi, he would be here straightening it out. No, like most ex twi off shoot leaders, he doesn`t appear to place value or importance in people. It seems to me that these guys don`t want to face people without protected status of leader. What they teach is of tantamount importance, anything that distracts from that is considered a waste of time....anybody who doesn`t buy it isn`t worth the time. Those that were wounded need to just get over it, shut up, move on etc.

Mark, I tend to think that (in this case anyway) the terms back biting and gossip seem to only aplicable to that which isn`t flattering to how one personally wishes to view things...no? It is usually used here at gsc as a ball bat to try to shut up the unflattering accounts that give evidence to the real spiritual nature of twi`s leaders. I have no idea if he has repented or not, (though his silence and lack of apology and seeking to repair the damage speak volumes) but expecting anyone to feel grateful or thankful for the faulty foundations on which twi was built.....(yeah I know folks have painted over the flaws and attempted to patch the cracks with terms like *sound biblical principles* and *the word of God is the will of God*) as far as I can see, are still living the lie promulgated by a man of the flesh, a wolf in sheep`s clothing. The fruit in the lives of those who lived, and those who continue to try to live by these faulty premises show just how spiritually bankrupt the doctrine, (no matter how pretty you dress it up)...still is... Vince might be a real peach of a guy now, but still.....He KNOWS what went on...yet he still venerates wierwille and twi...He is STILL promoting the lie. I would think that if one has any character at all, he would be acknowledging the wrongs of his teacher, apologizing for damage inflicted, and start all over again from scratch. NOT trying to hide the truth so that what he personally wishes to believe and promulgate appears to have merit. Until then, as far as I can see....he does not deserve our respect, nor his doctrine consideration, and frankly, as far as I am concerned he is not much better than any of the the other leaders that used the scriptures to steal that which was never theirs to begin with, to excuse them from their spiritual responsibilities, and moral duty, to deny personal responsibility and accountability....no matter how sanitized his version of the so called truth. Call it like you see it, but me? I see no difference in examining and discussing the heinous crimes of the men who stole and destroyed in God`s name, using scriptures to justify and sanitize their actions in twi and after....and the pharacees, saducees and money lenders that Jesus so despised and who`s practice he publicly vilified in his own time. If we don`t hold each other accountable when we are wrong, if we cannot count on one another to see and assist when we are unable, how will we ever learn, and grow?

Yeah, I never heard him talk about a desire to help people being one of his motivating factors.

I dunno Oldies, I have yet to call anybody whited sepulchers filled with disease and death, nor chased people about a temple with whips, nor flipped over tables...nor threatened people with mill stones about their necks and thrown in the water....now THAT took some serious guts.....I just talk about the spiritual frauds, the abusers and deceivers of our time lol.....but thanks anyway :)

It isn`t gossip or back biting if it is true. Otherwise I suppose Jesus is as guilty as all us bad old Greasespotters for talking about pharacees and saducees, in other words, creeps that hurt people in God`s name. You tell him that he is a back biter or a gossip ....lol Just another good sounding excuse to get people to shut up about information and experiences that makes one uncomfortable, imo.

Absolutely! Another lie bites the dust :)

Oldies, I have no doubts as to ones ability to quote scripture in order to make ungodly behavior seem acceptable and appropriate, or to deny accepting the necessary responsibility. It is a trademark of twi doctrine. That still does not make ones lack of repentance or seeking to make amends right or the actions of a genuine Christian. I also have absolutely no doubt that Vince and other leaders are convinced of the rightness of their actions, it is still the same old argument, blaming others for what you yourself have done, and why you yourself can dodge responsibility....weeeeell it is all the peoples fault that were wronged because THEEEY haven`t sought out the perpetrator to demand an apology.... Baaah ... if Vince or John, or any of the rest of em had ANY inkling of the harm they have caused, if they gave a damn at all....they would be seeking to do whatever they could to make it right. That is what REAL Christians do. As far as I can see they are still just playing Christian, and it isn`t doing them any favors to play along and pretend that what they do is ok, seriously.... What if folks are told one day to *depart for I knew you not* by Jesus because nobody ever held them accountable for their behavior? How will folks ever make things right if they never shed the arrogance of thinking that they are right in whatever they do?

Well, you like facts when they support your position it seems. No doubt people change in 20 years, but genuine Christians will follow their scriptural guidelines...ie repent, and make amends to those you have wronged. If this was a personal priority, I imagine that Vince and the other off shoot leaders would have made that effort to apologize. If people are genuinely repentant they KNOW what they have done, they KNOW the damage inflicted....They then would leave no stone unturned to undo their wrong, to heal an old wound that they created to make it right. That is just what people with the spirit of God alive in them do....they don`t have to be asked. I imagine repentance and seeking forgiveness just isn`t that big a deal to any of these off shoot leaders though, because of the basic belief system. They have built their houses on rotten flawed foundations...sure sure, it looks like they have been repaired, strengthened, BUT .. no matter how pretty the structures they have erected on the flawed foundation, they cannot stand.

No problem Bol, I mistakenly assumed that we were discussing what we did in twi and why. Go ahead and hold fast to what you want to believe about everybody else...make everyone villains in your mind, right or wrong...makes it alright to be really ....ed at everyone and everything. We have an old bumper sticker on the wall at our cabin that is perhaps pertinent here. *My mind is ALREADY made up...(and in itty bitty letters underneith) don`t confuse me with the facts* I won`t try any more, sorry.

Way to go Polar Bear!

Amen Wolf!! Bol, you are wrong. It`s too bad that we weren`t all more smart and savvy ...too bad we didn`t have the internet and the input of thousands of people and information from which to draw from....No, we were just young and stupid, naieve enough to trust people who taught us bible....foolish enough to believe that we would understand what wasn`t clear in time, unfortunate enough to not have any guidance or direction, desperate enough to hope that we would indeed find all of the answers to life and Godliness promised...gullible enough to believe that these people held the answers that would aid us in overcoming our problems..... Easier though to assign evil motive and intent and be mad at everyone isn`t it? It really isn`t an accurate portrayal of the 90 % of the people who didn`t become ladder climbing bullies that used and abused people. Out of the hundreds of decent people I encountered in twi...many were the most decent and kind I have ever met.....most selflessly working for what they thought was a greater good, looking beyond themselves, generous, tirelessly working, trying to be a part of something bigger that would make the world a better place....in ten years and out of all of those people, I might have met 3 self serving arse holes. Go ahead portray every poster here that has patiently tried to explain the hows and whys, the deceptions, the separation from family and support systems...call us all liars...assign evil motive...whatever....but will it really help you to understand your parents, or why your child hood was so difficult? There is deep stuff here.... learning to understand and recognize deception, manipulation, control, yes, I`ll say it...the *B* word...brainwashed...so that it doesn`t happen again, so that we can equip our children to not be vulnerable. I`ll say it again...NOBODY deliberately allows people to assume control over their lives, their families, their finances...nobody wants their children(the ones that we weren`t forced to abort as untimely nuisances) to grow up hating them, dissolusioned with life... nobody wants to start all over again in their 30s, re examining our beliefs, learning how to function in the real world, playing catch up for the rest of your life...basically having to face up to the fact that you are dead wrong for a very long time....that EVERYTHING that you have believed, worked for, and lived your entire adult life, has been a lie.... so much lost...so much wasted :( Bol, I`ll tell ya, we have enough sheet to deal with, enough guilt over our mistakes, difficult trials in raising our children into healthy productive adults in spite of the initial stupidity of the parents to be getting on with, without you assigning evil intent to us as well.

I calls em as I sees em friend :) Actually no, I have to admit that I greatly modified my disgust and contempt for your reprehensible action in this particular instance. I just wish that you could have seen it in the original ;)