rascal

A few analogies that I think are applicable as well... Ravening wolves seeking whom they may devour... Whited sepelchers...white and polished shiney on the outside...filled with death and decay on the inside.... Ever searching but never coming unto a knowledge of the truth.... I borrowed those :)

It was like a prison. The scriptures were the bars and door that kept me in the dark little cell that I was enslaved in. The scriptures were used like a weapon to force us into horrible situations, and to do horrible things to one another. The scriptures were used cruely to enable evil men unjust control over our lives. The scriptures were used to steal, kill, and destroy. The name of God and fear of losing his love and protection was the padlock that kept us securly locked away from freedom and light. :(

THAT is beautifully said. WG [/quote} God bless you, D & R M***er! I hope you come to know Jesus as your Lord and Savior 'cause I don't think you had a clue back in E*****, W*********. WG I think that That is what happened with a lot of us in twi....our pride in our knowledge took the place of a relationship with Jesus with disasterous results :(

I have been told that by more than one person as well, lifted. It was one of the chief reasons that niether wierwille nor his organization ever got much respect at the local level. I don`t know why it would suprise anybody though, he had to start the adultery and lying at some point <_<

That about sums up twi :(

Wow Way2much...now THAT is an interesting thought. I have always wonder what great good might have been accomplished in the name of God had all of our selfless efforts, the millions of man hours of labor, millions of dollars, millions of hours of prayer not been sucked into serving a few evil men. I think that Sunesis is right....it would seem that what was good and attracted people to twi was due directly to other mens ministries.... VPW just hijacked them for his own illicit purposes. I knew that his ministry interupted and derailed many individual lives, but I never thought of it interfering with an entire movement :(

Garth, I only know that we did some awfull awfull things, things that we would have never considered doing, otherwise, because these folks said that *God required it* isn`t that what a cult does? Rape, steal, extort, destroy ...all in the name of God? I don`t know how else to describe it. I can think of no other word than brainwashing to describe our willingness to forsake our families our personal goals, endure cruel unjust treatment and humbly thank them for helping us to be better believers.... I think that we thought that we were so damned clever and superior to the rest of the world.....that we just don`t like to admit the degree that we were fooled. Definatly an ego check.

I think that it is very difficult to say the *C* word because it is very hard to admit that we were a part of something that turned out to be so very harmfull in spite of our best intentions. It is hard to say because I still want to be right because I defended it so staunchly back in the 70s and 80s when people would claim that it was a cult or that I was brain washed. We have to face the cold hard facts that rather than being the spiritual giants that we believed ourselves to be....we were duped into serving and supporting evil. Face it......Our leaders seduced and molested young teenaged girls....Our leaders took other mens wives....Our leaders extorted money from the believers by claiming that God wouldn`t spit in our direction if we didn`t. Our leaders slandard the reputations of rightious people in their need to cover their evil .... Our founding president was a drunk and destroyed lives. Some of us were required to abandon family in the name of God, forsook our educations because it was deemed worldly and a contamination, Our children were at times neglected sometimes hidiously abused... Many of us were required to abort our children in the name of service and commitment to God. We jumped through ever raised hoops in order to be well pleasing to God. Think of the viscious screaming that we endured, the condemnation, struggle to remain in God`s favor according to whatever our current leaders definition was...... Just look at the list...... this isn`t just *cultish* behavior...... it is full blown evil running unchecked. If we read these things about ANY other group...we would have no problem identifying and saying *yup THAT is a cult*...but it is a little embarrasing to admit that we ourselves were wrong about something that we believed so strongly in. This happened in the 70s and 80s too... so it wasn`t just a 90s thing. I think that the reason that the 90s got SO bad ...and I saw it coming when the loyalty oath was issued....is that Loy fired/marked and avoided/discredited every single leader that had been standing in the gap so to speak...protecting their people from the worst of the abuses....any who dared to hold the president of the ministry to a modicum of decency or require him to behave as a man of the spirit. After 1987/88 evil was basically allowed to run unchecked because loy had managed to run off anybody with the guts and integrety to stand up to him in his insanity.

Abby, Sushi, and boys :( I am so sorry. I am crying, knowing how you feel.... we lost our *Chance* sometime during the night as well. Wouldn`t it be nice to think of those two old boys making the journey together to that *other* place? I know that your scrappy was special, being dane, he would be gentle and kind, being australian shepherd he would be intellegent and lively.....bothe breeds are incredibly loving and loyal....what a fantastic combination. Cathy

They must have only let you see their *nice* face John...because from all accounts it can be taced all the way back to the very inception of twi. But then again you probably weren`t 17 endowed with boobs and a pretty face either :( Unfortunatly, that seemed to be a major part of the criteria necessary in order to be deemed *mature enough spiritually* to handle the deeper truths.

Right about what?

Whew Safari vista, Good point.....Who`d a figured that ANYBODY could make JEFFS look good?

He fooled an awfull lot of people. I`d think you would have to be pretty cunning to pull that off without getting caught....unless you buy into the theory that he was just a puppet for Satan

As did Jim Jones as well... Craiggers n vp are in some pretty high profile company.

Darth wierwille? Darth Prophet? Darth teacher? Darth MOG!!!!!! It DOES have a certain ring to it :blink:

I think that HE thought of himself as an apostle.......I think that he also thought that his knowledge and formulas made him a Christian as well. I am with Groucho....the fruit in his life would appear to define him as being of the flesh.

*The word* defines different sins constantly. There is a list of *abominations* The lady caught in adultery was treated way differently than the money changers or the pharacees, by Jesus ..No? .... a clear indication HE felt there was a difference in sin and how they were to be addressed. There is an unforgivable sin even.... Your swooping analogy is even sillier md vaden...... if anybody had done as you describe in twi or school or any other group of folks ....they couldn`t possibly get a grasp on what the group was genuinely about or what was accomplished or not There is much to be learned from each and every poster here about the direction they have been led since leaving twi. As far as Satori`s post? Though extreme, there is a valid point being made... Have you honestly considered the impact of wierwilles drugging and raping of our friends ...that the devistation in the lives of those assaulted by their trusted miniter and brother in Christ ...might be a tad more far reaching then simply going over long on a teaching? Do you think that those of us who have spent the years trying to come to grips with this ultimate betrayal, or friends and family members lost to death due to wrong vpw/twi doctrine might consider your analogy obscene? The people that were thrown out of the ministry and lied about ...declared posessed two that I know of for refusing sexual favors to lcm and vpw.....they lost their friends, their family, the spiritual anchor ..everything that mattered in life...some survived, some didn`t... and you can compare this to an overly long teaching?? Can you not see how deeply offending that your comparison is to those who suffered?? Read his post again md, there is a stark truth to be recognised in your thought processes....No of course you probably aren`t a child molester ...but your thoughts and ability to equate deliberate visciously destructive, morally outragious behavior that destroyed lives.....(yeah, some even died md) .... with the arrogance of taking more than your allotted time at a teaching.....can safely be compared with the obscene reasoning of a pedophile rationalising and justifying their actions towards their innocent victims... You are guilty of arrogance and maybe boring a crowd to tears.....Wierwille and the child molester are guilty of destroying lives for selfish pleasure and personal gain. There is no comparison....

Yeah Fog ...the LAST time someone told me that God had sent em to me turned out pretty badly...I have to wonder ... Were the messengers mistaken in what God called them to do? Why would God call em to lure us into a snare? Who`s will WAS being accomplished? Did God ever give a damn in the first place?

What if we had been misled into some other cult? Just different wrong doctrine, right? But what really matters is God is with us and will never leave us nor forsake us![/size][/font] Now THAT is something that I can attempt to wrap my brain around. I have had to wonder since leaving twi... where was God`s guidance and protection?? If there even IS a God if those who were honestly seeking him found themselves in a cult that simply twisted scriptures to get us to achieve their own ends??...All of the betrayal, all of the suffering inflicted on people...many whom were already struggling from difficult lives. I dunno the *Joseph* scenario is pretty good.

You guys are so sweet.... :) Thank you so much! This was my 45th birthday...am still trying to figure out how THAT happened...lol My Dad and his wife came up from orlando to celebrate...guest spouses birthday is later this week....my dad and his wife and one son is in june one in july ...etc...so we had an EVERYBODY birthday....we did all of our favorite things...went to the flea market...ate at the pizza buffet....cake ice cream watermellon presents...lots of presents :) They (my dad and the kids) went to herculean effort to chase down the booth owner of something I wanted ....they kept sneaking back to the flea market all day ....lol after many hours...hee hee they were successfull and surpised me with my hearts desire....that I had given up on that morning. We played hookie from karate and just had fun all day... Thank you for your well wishes, you all make me feel so special :) OK....so about birthdays..... My sweet 6 yr old and I were laying down .... after a period of quiet...she solemnly asked me if I was *old* yet..... and I said well yes ...a bit. She asked with great concern if I would soon die?...and I told her that I didn`t think so but that we just didn`t know when we would die........ but I had an idea.....I told her that I prayed for her and her brothers and sisters...maybe she could start to pray for me....that was the only thing that I knew to do... Well...about 5 miniutes passed and just as I think she has dropped off to sleep.... she said softly ...Mom...it will be ok now...cause I prayed that you would live untill Hannah and I are EIGHTY :) OK one more *Z* story.... I was in the bathroom killing flies.... I was muttering and swearing I detest flies...little Z enters the room and said ...maybe I had better stop killing the flies....n puzzled I asked her...why? She had reasoned it all out beautifully ..... she said...WELL if you kill alla those nasty flies down HERE....they are all gonna go to heaven...and we are gonna have to deal with them up there FOREVER! I guess she`d rather keep em all down here....lol...anyway I suppose she has assumed that heaven is where everything goes when it dies....lol

I don`t know...I looked up these verses and it didn`t seem like the defininition/sumations matched... I mean striving for mastery... those verses were actually talking about mastering temptation... and the verse james... rejoicing was about seeing others when christ returned...james was speaking about those enduring temptation and love God.... the one in peter talked about those whom fed the flock and were ensamples.....not doing it for filthy lucre .... It would appear that there are going to be some big suprises one day when peoples expectations don`t match up with reality on that day. Thank you Galen I reworded my post so that it didn`t seem like I was jumping you personally, but the source of the definitions... Thank you for your patient answere...as in spite of the impression given....I was genuinely interested.

Allen it would be very foolish to trust a lying plagarizing drunken rapist `s opinion on any subject without carefull examination

Galen...are those definitions you listed after the verses honestly what the scritures say or are they just the definition that twi gave? Seems like twi definition is a stretch from what is actually written. The first listed....I looked up (it is all I have time for) ...and funny enough The context is talking about being temperate in all things keeping the body in subjegation....lest when I preach to others, I myself should be cast away... Anyway...you have me curious enough to crack the bible open ...and see how this is a crown of *incorruptible*

SOGWAP, I know a lot of people that turned to drinking/being a drunk after leaving twi...my spouse included. I think that are just some wounds that were buried very verydeep while we were in twi fo many years...and that for a lot of us that is the only way to cope with the pain....at least this is the case with many of my old ministry aqauitances :( I am glad that things are better for you.

I personally have trouble relating to how vpw believed that it was ok to act.... Me? the worst *trash* I did in twi??? I abandoned my family without a back ward glance because twi said they were *senses* oriented and that to associate with them was to risk being tricked away from God. I abandoned college and career because twi teaching said that this was worldly knowledge and worthless...that God needed me to learn *spiritually* so I must go wow and corpes. I abandoned my beloved animals, hobbies, dreams, and goals because twi teaching said that God needed me in the spiritual battle and these were worldly/senses distractions..... I gave away family heir looms and treasures because twi teaching deamed that were spiritually a burden.... By far the worst *trash* to tell on myself while in twi is that I aborted a child because twi teaching required I honor my commitment to complete the corpes program. I don`t shift the blame on to people...I personally place the blame squarely on the shoulders of the counterfit minister who`s false truth and teachings enabled us to be manipulated into doing great evil in God`s name <_< In hind sight, the *naughty* things that I did were entirely due in the most part to twi teachings.