rascal

Outofdafog...I wrestle with these very same issues.....The only thing I can reconcile is that there are a whole LOT of scriptures describing snares, false prophets, wolves in sheeps clothing....I think that the reason that it is so emphasised is because that the counterfit is so difficult to distinguish from the genuine. It has to look really really good in order to lure people into the snare. I think that there were some VERY good people that got lured into that snare for a time, people who were a blessing, who ministered to people. I think that there were many genuine Christians involved in twi....but not at the top. I think that the badness was always there, but managed to hide behind the wholesom faces of the genuine christians that became ensnared in their trap....thus becoming the bait or lure if you will for the next victims...

Lorna, the personal experiences of the posters here is not *hear say bs*. These policies were enforced by leaders trained and sanctioned by twi period.

Dott, It was at roa 81 for sure. I was told later by a friend that worked third aid that the water was the source of the contamination, that there had been many many sick people. I have never been that ill before or since. I was in the camping over flow area on the other side of the osc building and was way too weak to crawl all the way to the food tents. I just lay in the stifeling heat for three days. There was very little foot traffic to even try to call for help....even had I thought to. My TC bless her soul sent a yogurt and drink by once a day ... if she hadn`t i don`t think that I would have survived.. It really bothered me that I had no loved ones or family within 700 miles to care whether I lived or died....It was the first time that I realised how really all alone I was ...that my *spiritual* family really didn`t feel like I was their responsibilty any more after their corpes assignement had ended :( It was just a scarey time.

sure sprawled out *we* ARE still here.... However I know several people personally who are not....good people following the same rules we did .... who didn`t make it.....so God just didn`t care quite as much about them? <_< We are special because our believing worked and we lived ....while our friends/family who didn`t make it were some how sub standard in their walk and thus paid the penalty? I think the whole concept is an insult to the people who tried just as hard as we did to adhere to twi teachings....who now in death are viewed as having somehow failed.

Yeah Tom, I remember waking up a time or two to realise I was about to collide with a semi.... What about the times when we had friends that were in trouble...but we thought that with their *believing* everything would be all right. Our tc was really depressed, his wife had left him, he started talking about needing someone to kick his bu tt....He even cried .... We of course prayed with him, believing that was all he needed to be ok... We helped him get his house in order.....he started giving his stuff away.... there were several things in hindsight that I should have seen as warnings.....I knew down deep inside though that he was in trouble...I tried to get my spouse to call him daily, tried to tell the lc that our friend was really down and maybe needed him to call ..these were his corpes brothers for petes sake.......but of course was treated rather brusquly and made to understand that I needed to *believe* better for him...... you know .. my fear was negative believing. Well the guy killed himself.... our believing had produced squat .... our buddy had needed a whole lot more from his friends and spiritual leader than prayer and our *believing* Course it wasn`t the fault of the leader or his friends who heard his repeated cries for assistance....HE was the one who`s believing had failed.

Thanks modish waiter and friendly moderator :) You guys have got me covered! The topic makes much more sense in context. Rhino, I sure hope that you don`t mind me using your post as a spring board. free at last....whew Thank GOD your mother listened to that still small voice, that mothers *instinct* instead of heading to our training. It could have very easily been a different story. Seriously....We were taught to believe that way and it put our sweet babies in danger. Inexcusable MckeanJ, that was it....we were patted on the back for our fool hardiness...each success made us that much more willing to ignore common good sense and embark on the next nutty *suggestion* by leadership. We were definatly taught to look down on people whom had the good sense to heed those internal alarms. (((((Shell))))) It was cruel..... He deserved a whole lot better than that from those whom he thought of as friends and family.

Which opens ANOTHER whole can of worms.... When we didn`t recieve the *believed for* results...we were blamed...there was something wrong with us. When folks sickend and died...their lack of believing was noted....they were even scorned When folks had car wrecks and died ...we analysed their lives to find out where the *blew it* where their believing had failed...were they tithing enough .. had they ignored a cue from leaders or god.....How had THEY let satan in? People`s lives and reputations were savaged ANYTIME disaster befell because some how they had failed.

Likean eagle, yeah sometimes it was fun, but my point was that some of the things that we were expected to do were extremely foolish. We were counting on our *believing* to keep us safe and cover our bu tts as per twi`s *truth* :(

((((shellon)))) I know, I was thinking about your situation as one of several examples when I wrote that, I am sorry. I hear you about bringing home strangers...as well , I took in wierd family members. We would be required to take any grad of pfal into our way homes....even if the creeped us out. There were several pervs that come to mind.... I know that I read of people leaving their infants and young children alone asleep for hours while attending functions at other locations....trusting that God would protect them...sigh

EXACTLY Keth, God couldn`t have gotten through our fiercly renewed minds with a pile driver. Our leaders said do thus and such ... God works in our leaders... any thought that questioned the insanity of what we were doing was labled *from satan* Peter was always used as the example....he listened and obeyed his leader and got to walk on water.... when his 5 senses saw the wind and waves...he sank. NEVER listen to your 5 senses...it is a trick!

Whether a policy was written down or not has no bearing on whether it was in enforced and in effect in twi.... Nor does it in any way lessen the impact of the damage inflicted by twi leaders....nor does it any way mitigate the evil practiced by twi. We all know that there was a whole other set of teachings for the spiritually *mature enough to handle it* crowd that was kept from the general publics view ... *lest the ministry be blamed* was a big one for getting folks to not press charges on criminals within twi`s ranks.... *Always obey your leader* was never written down, but was taught and enforced.. leading to some pretty serious consequences... *All parts of the body being equal* for justifying sex outside of the marriage *All things are lawfull to them which are in Christ* covered a multitude of offenses from drugs to alcoholism to criminal activity. Just to name a few off the top of my head......

This *believing* teaching was really a problem even after leaving twi.... I remember when the kids were small, my husband giving me a hard time because I buckled the children and myself in when we got in the car....he considered this *negative* believing...a lack of confidence in him and God ....(course that opinion changed when he shattered his face on the steering wheel during a wreck) ... If I took the kids in for shots or to the Dr. it was *negative* believing....if I opted to birth my children in the hospital rather than at home, it was a lack of believing..... Sometimes adherance to this belief was dangerous, other times just down right silly.... For a long time, I wasn`t allowed to use spouses car because my *believing* wasn`t there to keep it running right... It STILL bothers him to let me use it...lol When my poor old worn out appliances would break, it was my lack of believing... It seems like any time I used my brain or good sense...it was considered *negative* or a sign of a lack of believing.

Rhino posted on the roa thread about driving while exhausted putting himself, his passenger and other drivers at serious risk in order to get to roa (wish I knew how to cut and cross post) Here's the post, courtesy of your friendly neighborhood moderator: It got me to thinking about the insane risks that we took, assured from twi teachings that our *believing* would keep us safe no matter how rediculous the choices we made were..... I remember driving for days (way too many times) when we were headed out on the wow field...everyone insisted that we drive round the clock...I almost killed the whole car load of us while trying to pass a semi because of impaired judgement due to lack of sleep. I remember one time that there was a limb meeting in Bismark one weekend...there was a blizzard aproaching from the west, all were warned to stay inside, that the roads were impassable...that it was *white out* conditions....(that is where the snow is blowing like sand and you cannot see where road is). Anyway...do you think our tc was gonna let satan trick us out of attending with a little snow??? Oh HAYAL no...we packed our stupid bu tts in the car and headed into the storm....It was so bad that on the interstate...the only thing that one could do was creep forward watching for the mile reflectors to guide us as there was no discernable difference between the road and the fields that boardered...we finally were stopped by the police and ordered off the road .... I remember being terrified of hitch hiking .. but was told that I needed to build my believing by doing it more...you know confront that fear.... (that and the wow family had better uses for my car) I was picked up by a perv that wanted to pay me to be a model ... for UNDERWEAR! Thank God he let me outta the car....I was so ashamed that I couldn`t overcome my fear after that ...and just chalked it up to me being *weak* The unsafe neighborhoods that we were dropped off to witness in...the dangerous areas of town we lived in... Every time that our 5 senses would kick in and tell us that *hey this is NOT a good idea* .. we were trained to shut that voice down with all critical thinking ...assuming that Satan was trying to trick us into not doing God`s will at our leaders bidding. Same went for seeking medical aid, for taking medication, etc. My point is, that we were taught to believe that we were INVINCIBLE...super conquerers....and so engaged in sometimes downright STUPID behavior many times at leaderships demand...er suggestion....assured that God would simply have to cover. The really sad thing is that when we suffered negative impact from the choices, when our friends and twig mates became ill or died...It was all our faults, our lack of believing......because God almighty certainly couldn`t be held responsible...or God forbid, twi`s *truth* be questioned.

Rhino...That is scarey...and I can So relate.....sigh We thought that we were invincible...our *believing* would cover every stupid decision that we made...shoot, I think that deserves a thread of it`s own.

Not completing any program or activity in twi is not honoring our committment to God, equals breaking our vow/word to God, equals lying to God, equals being outside of his ability to protect us..... which is punishable by consequences possibly as severe as annanias and saphira`s untimely death :(

SPEAKING of ritilin.....there was a family here in Tenn a few years back that lost custody of one of their children because they were opposed to making their son take it at the schools demand :(

Oh yeah...let the state take im... then he can spend his remaining time away from those he loves and who love him with a foster family who may or may not give a damn personally about him....let him spend the energy that he ought to be utilizing to fight his disease in court battles.... The death of pond`s teen boy friends twin may have messed him up....but hear of a he ll of a lot more kids being *messed up* by foster care providers in the states care. Damn it..THINK about the horrors this kid would be facing before so blythly committing him to state care......dying a premature death while fighting cancer surrounded and supported by those you love is NOT the worst thing that can happen to a person.

Word wolf....one expense....one thing that was once explained to me....the power co there works really wierd in nk....something about the rates they charged were somehow determined by the month that you utilized the most. I was told that they paid an enormous amount year round because of usage during roa. There was money spent on av equipment electronics etc.... tractors..wagons ... porta johns/tp. cleaning supplies...garbage cans /bags...fees to dispose of the garbage...diesel generators/fuel...gravel for roads...bushhogging the fields...fans just a few expenses that I can think of off the top of my head. Not that I don`t agree with you, that roa was a money maker....

The things I remember that I loved best were the feelings of having a mission, an important job to do...that I was in an intense spiritual battle fighting Satan and doing my darndest to strike a blow or two for God. I liked the feeling that somehow I was making a difference in the world. I loved being with people who were living their lives unselfishly ...having a bigger picture than just their own daily existance.

Caged....that is exactly how I felt..... You must do abc...behave in thus and such manner....like only this ...eschew that....give up this....don`t like certain people.....(the list was endless) or risk being outside of God`s favor and protection. We were molded into these unrecognizable characters.... I couldn`t be me, I couldn`t like the activities that had always interested me......I couldn`t be with the people who were important to me....I couldn`t live where I wanted to.... The bars on the cage ...the bars that imprisoned us were forged from scriptures that we learned to love. Our love for God, our instilled sense of duty to him is what created the seemingly insurmountible obsticals that prevented us from escaping the snare to freedom. The worst part was when we were forced to do great evil, feeling within the every fiber of our being the wrongness of it.....but it was necessary in order to observe your duty to God, and renain faithfull to his ministry

Skyrider...first off though too little too late.... THANKYOU! :) I always volunteered to work at each roa...but it was only one shift a day so had no idea what the rest of you guys endured to put on roa. Yeah, everything flooded in my tent numerous times and was ruined (including my dad`s wonderfull 35 m nikon camera)...sigh The sickness was really scarey when you were stuck in a stifeling tent too weak to crawl out to get water or food for yourself...The water was contaminated in 81/82 ( think it was) many of us got deathly ill. I think that it is the first time that I ever realised that I could possibly die because there was nobody to check on me or care or help me on to grounds.......I cannot imagine having a sick child in those conditions :( Walking in 100 degree plus heat in stockings and heels on gravel WAS rediculous....omg that wow parade in 85 where we walked a mile or two in in the humidity guys in three piece suits...girls stifeling in stockings ...each step agony in those heels........nearly finished us all off before we got on the field gasp! The incredibly dangerous storms in 86 or 87 with lightening crashing down all around us while we cowered in our flattened tents.... Water flooding into the big top in wow training in 79 slowly rising around our ankles as we listened to teachings...wondering what was going to happen with all of the electric power cords that were on the ground as well....

Welcome Waysider...thanks for sharing a little bit of your story :) I can so relate to wanting to make the world a better place....That was what got me hooked...being on the *right* side in the spiritual battle....being able to strike a blow for God....yadda yadda... A lot of really good hearted folks participated because we thought that it was the best way to bring a lite goodness and light into the world....sigh

Wow waysider...that is the most convincing account I have ever read that would inspire me to believe sit might be real or beneficial....lol Gave you the finger eh? If that isn`t an apropriate summary of what *dr.* did to us, to God and to christiandom

I`ll take you up on that offer sunny F...and thanks. Agreed, we grieve over the lost opportunities, the shame of making stupid choices ....facing up to the fact that we were ....um ...ulp...wrong....sigh The COOL thing is....like hiway said.....we have the rest of our lives to exact our revenge by *living well* Hopefully in honest examination of our mistakes, we can avoid such pit falls in the future, be much wiser :) Personally, I think that my life is now much richer having suffered the privations brought about by my foolishness...I can truly apreciate and enjoy lifes blessings much more so...than if I had never suffered loss.

Ha...truth?? We can`t handle the TRUTH!!! lol that was why there was so much *lock box* stuff.. The defense attornies are obviously to protect twi from those who aren`t spiritual enough to get the truth....bless their poor persecuted hearts