rascal

Thanks for asking kev, I was alone. I just boogered up one hand and wrists a bit...I will ask the ortho doc in the am to check them. The other driver and I walked away from our completely detroyed vehicles with nothing more than bruises, thank you God. on the down side, I only had liability on my vehicle...my insurance company will by him a new one... I have to eat the loss.

Sigh...I totalled my little car tonight :( I won`t be able to attend. I am just sick. Y`all have fun...I trust you all to carry on in the finest tradition of weinie roasts past and have a wonderfull time loving and enjoying one anothers company.

Excathedra...i understand....honestly i do..... I look at my hundred year old farm house...the repairs that my contractor hubby never gets to...and yet refuses to allow me to hire someone to fix.... the vehicles in the yard that hubby wants to fix....the grass that doesn`t get cut often enough because I never have a working lawn mower..... But I will tell you something....the kids are all crazy to come here....nephews neices...friends kids...there is rarely a time when we don`t have other kids staying with us for the weekend or during the week when school is out and parents can`t watch em... What i am sayong is that they LOVE my home... not because it is immaculent or fancy or that I have all of the newest toys...etc...it isn`t..it`s a dump...BUT people love to be here. There is a lot of love here. i think that is what attracts people. the ones that won`t come because of my house...screw em. You do what you need to for your friend there ex....I let my husband do the pratical thing and put my precious dog down 15 years ago. ....and have been greived and ashamed every since. My companion of 11 years deserved a whole lot better than to be disposed of when she became inconvenient or expensive...you know? I would live on a creek bank in a tent if I could have her back with me today. Her love and companionship was priceless. You don`t have to spend thousands on your pet....but for less than a hundred you could find out what is the problem and if it can be addressed. Just explain clearly and honestly to your vet ahead of time your situation...ok? Mine runs a tab for me...my bill has been over 2000 for several years now...due to emergencies and strays...I pay every month and he knows that some day I will get it all paid...but in the mean time he never with holds treatments to my animals. My prayers are with you friend. Oh and Belle, Your home is LOVELY. please don`t think that people would be judgemental. They would simply enjoy your hospitality, and infectious laughter, as we did.

Tom, for the last time, it wasn`t personal. Please stop picking a fight where none was intended. What I addressed was what you wrote from the pov of why adultery and fornication might not be so heinous....and comparison of us to pharacees with stones......So...it was wierwilles pov and not yours...so....I STILL think it is horse sheet .... RATHER than seek to live the life of a Christian...striving to be temperate and follow the scriptures requirements......He instead found a way to mangle the scriptures to justify his lust and the feeding of his sick apetites. If this is not your pov then you and I are in complete agreement.

You are picking a fight where there isn`t one Tom. I am not venting, I am not portraying you as a wierwille defender.....I am not accusing you of anything period. Stop accusing me of accusing you of things please.

Nope, not at all Tom, what I am adressing is the attempt to portray wierwilles adultery and fornication and attempts at scriptural justification and cover up as some how understandible. You compared us to pharacees with stones in our hands... I am addressing your attempt to explain/excuse wierwilles mindset and portray us as a$$ holes looking to stone a poor guy who simply erred. That woman wasn`t destroying lives on a daily basis...wierwille did.

It seems that so many of twi`s doctrines were simply excuses WHY we didn`t need to adhere to the scriptural standards that one expected of a Christian. The *freedom in Christ* doctrine made it ok to drink like fish, cuss like sailors, smoke like chimnies, screw like bunnies, assault our family members, kill our babies..... Fom what I can tell since leaving twi and meeting other Christians.....it seems like gnuine Christians, when they have experienced the life impacting change of the new birth ... are different...old things, destructive things begin to fall away...as you grow as christian, you change for the better. Alcoholics are freed from their demons, smokers and drug users are free from their addiction....people change....and from what I see...not so much of a conscious decision, but they have been changed on the inside..... those things have lost their appeal..... What I saw in twi was that the longer I was there ...the more vulger I became....I became sexually active....started drinking regularly....was able to justify mean ness...was smug, arrogant...condescending.. It seems like we are given a chrystal clear set of instructions in the scriptures as to how to live , and yet there is always a teaching from twi that excuses us from our obligations. Scriptures say....be kind to all.....twi says only to the house hold... " " ....do a b c and you are of the flesh and have no inheritance in the kingdom of God(heaven?) twi says we are free in christ and can freely avail ourselves....excusing these behaviors " " .....Be kind to one another....twi says only if you are in good standing with the house hold... otherwise it is alright to scream at, villify, lie about, slander, destroy a person. " " .....Charity....only to the household...everybody else were just body and soul empties breathin OUR air. It reminds me of that old teaching in pfal where the sepent was saying ...did God REALLY say....yada yada EVERY standard given as a measuring stick for the genuine Christian`s walk and life style was discredited, and instead replaced with scriptures that could be taken out of context to mean do what ever you will. I think that in reality, rather than teaching us scripture that helped us to mature as believers.....twi taught us how to comfortably ignore our spiritual obligations....it`s almost like we were pretending to be christians.

But Tom..I think that this is the insidious nature of the lie of twi doctrine. Suuure scripture says don`t fornicate.... Suuuure scripture says don`t commit adultery...but that isn`t reeeeally what god meant. It reminds me of the teaching that vpw did with eve and the serpent. The teachings were always about a way to wiggle out of what was expected of us as christians...a convenient way to dismiss the fact that the fruit in our leaders lives and many of our own defined us clearly as of the *flesh* I am going to start another thread about this tonight.

AMEN!!!! Tes-ti-FY waysider!!!! Abso friggin LUTELY..... motives, whether he believed his own crap or not, whether he was sincer or decietfull....means precisely SQUAT when it comes to whether or not he was a genuine christian minister or a cleverly disguised counterfit ..a wolf disguised as a sheep in order to gain access to the sheep .... that led people away from the genuine walk with God. I have absolutely NO doubt that Jim Jones and David Koresche were just as sincere in believing the rot that they used to destroy lives with as well. There is genuine and there is counterfit.....Both resemble Christianity, both profess to be Godly, there is one surefire way to distinguish the difference.

The elephant as I see it Tom... Is that VPW won our trust and respect as a minister for God. He then figured out a way to scripturally justify every sin and moral perversion that he chose to indulge in personally....RATHER than live honestly as a genuine Christian. Rather than minister to his congregation, as a true christian minister ....He instead chose to use his position, his authority, his knowldege of scriptures to rape, to steal, to and destroy the very people he had accepted responsibility to minister to in the name of God. That *freedom in Christ* doctrine as I see it (as with so many twi doctrines) is a vile lie to excuse ones self from living as a genuine Christian. There are specific reasons why adultery and fornication, as well as drunkeness and lasciviousness...etc are forbidden scripturally.....and are even listed as fruit of the flesh......one of them being that innocent parties get hurt. What is WORSE...he taught it to others. Tom, (and I am sorry if i am wrong) it really sounds to me like you are still trying to use wierwilles lie in an attempt to mitigate the evil of his actions and minimalise the suffering and damage that his self indulgance inflicted on innocent parties. Is it because you really want to believe contrary to what the scriptures state uncatagorically is wrong...it is more fun to screw who you want when you want, as long as we have that handy dandy verse about freedom? It really IS ok .... I personally just can`t handle that freedom? You know Tom...I don`t care what people chose to be or do...but damn it ...if one wants to be a christian or a minister ...then DO it...instead of living a lie and pretending that you are. Finding excuses NOT to honor the biblical instructions given a Christian and to dismiss the fruit that is evidence of your fleshly nature is not how a genuine Christian does. I think that this is the insidious evil of a lot of wierwilles doctrine. I will take Blisses example a bit further.... I know instances where the kids have stolen some candy...they then try to share it with their unsuspecting brothers and sisters....some how, they seem to feel that if others are doing it too...they are not so guilty.....

Thanks Pipes, I think that sums up EXATLY why we did foolish things. oldies has tried to focus this thread on hitchhiking good or bad....That isn`t the point, we were forced to do that which was unwise in order to be in good standing with God. All of those things forms of manipulation that you listed were used. The bad part is that the one and only God almighty was used as the threat...I mean if you blew it spiritually and God couldn`t spit in your direction, or you were no longer under his umbrella of protection, if he got mad at you and decided to kill you for breaking your vow like he did with annanias n saphira....it wasn`t like you could go out and get ANOTHER God to love and protect you :( I wonder how HE feels about being the weapon utilized to force people into unsafe behavior. I wonder if he felt as bad as we did when we tearfully submitted to the orders of twi, some times heart broken. sometimes scared, some times just sick at heart at what we felt we had to do in order to prove our love to him. Then when things went bad we turned to him and asked why? We were just trying to serve you :(

BINGO!!!! ding ding ding!!!! Dooj, I think you that you hit the nail right on the head! Wolf in sheeps clothing? False prophet anybody? Ya know...ya gotta resemble the genuine very closely in order to fool anybody...in vain is there snare set in sight of the bird...etc Guess that is why we are instructed biblically to examine the fruit....hmmm in addition to the fear and sheer misery....becoming physically disabled, rape, and even death....just a few of the consequences mentioned on this hread recieved for adhering to twi`s orders. Doesn`t sound like a Godly endeavor to me <_< Genuine ministies do not do this to people, genuine Christian leaders do not flagrantly disregard the lives and safety of those entrusted to their care, genuine brothers in Christ would simply never behave towards their fellow Christians.

Oldies THAT is some of the wierdest garbage that you have come up with yet. Attempting to insinuate that God would betray our trust and place us in harms way, with no regards to the consequences. and yet...I suppose that this is EXACTLY what twi did. Said that God required these dangerous activities, required our suffering the consequences of acting out on these foolish orders....required that we endure sever hardships. God required us to behave foolishly... God required us to ignore all common sense and obey leaderships orders... God required meekness from us while enduring viscious face meltings... God required our time...our money our resources our lives....our children to die THIS is why we put up with the crap...we thought that we were serving God...in truth we were fascillitating great evil. It is the difference between the genuine and the counterfit. A loving parent, not to mention God all mighty would never put his children in harms way.

lol..maaaaybe *some posters* accuse and assess blame at every oportunity because twi WAS wrong...dreadfully, tragically and horribly so. and damned if we didn`t pay the price for the *wrongness* Some paid more dearly than others...but we all paid in one form or another. *Blame the adversary* Has ALWAYS been twi`s way of cowardly dodging their responsibility and the consequenses of their evil heartless, self serving actions.

Geeze goerge...ya expect better from your brothers in Christ, from your ministers responsible for the spiritual well being of those they have taken the responsibility to minister to. You expect better from the shepherd responsible for the safety of the sheep :( Who`da thunk that these wol oops er men might be untrustworthey or not have our very best interests at heart....sigh

George, you bring up yet another good point....while we were out there putting our lives and safety on the line proving our believing...THEY were riding on Harlys or in lincolns or luxurious motor coaches, or if that proved too onerous, flying in personal airplanes, Shoot even when traveling on grounds....they had cushmans! Good GRIEF we were nuts <_<

We were IF we loved God. Oh suuuuure.....it WAS ok to be a failure a dissapointment by not complying with leaderships orders...but you were forever branded spiritual *LOSER* <_< Destined to live out the rest of your life in shame, viewed as spiritually *questionable* a spiritual *wimp* Most of us would have rather died (and some did) than be a dissapointment to God. Yeah we were forced IF we loved God.

Personal bias??? Manufacturing a supposed reality??? no, actually this information was what twi leaders, the ones who told me that they spoke for God, the ones who told me that God required that I obey, told repeatedly and implicitly. It was the great L Craig Martindale himself THE spiritual leader of GOD`S ministry that taught what I related word for freaking WORD at roa 1983 at the corpes promo. He further more stated very snottily at the same teaching that he wouldn`t even hang out with anybody who wasn`t corpes because they weren`t committed enough to God. Geeze I couldn`t make this crap up NOBODY is that imaginative My sincerest apologies for the stark reality of our situations interfering with your fantasy of what you WISH twi had been oldies.

Nobody was forced, but if you wanted to be anything OTHER than a *bump on the log spirituall*'it was absolutely necessary. If you wanted to please God, you WERE required to go into the corpes...there was no other alternative if you loved God. Hitch hikeing was a requirement in order to stay in the corpes. and *I* am vehemently opposed to the continual attempts at whitewashing of the evil twi`s sepulcher

THAT oughtta be calligraphied, matted, framed and hung on the wall around here :( Watered garden, I am so sorry that you were treated that way. I am so thankfull that you are alive, in spite of that arrogant idiot.

pompous arrogant bi tch. Acting so judgemental, so accusative..... trying to act so all knowing....so freaking clueless.

As a learning experience?

Wusses?? WUSSES?? OMG John one of our posters here was abducted and raped repeatedly before she got away ...WHILE hitch hiking to lead. I know of at least one corpes person who freaking DIED while hitchhiking to lead. and those are just incidences that I have heard about...no doubt there were others :( Good lord almighty ....what an ignorant thing to say about the people who suffered so grievously for following twi orders.

Agreed, The public saw and was attracted to the wholesome character and saw the pure hearts and motives of those *good people* .... The evil could not have operated had they not had the innocent to hide behind :( They used us, they used the scriptures and they used God. Pretty slick