rascal

Priscilla....and in all fairness, you don`t know me either to make that *bitter* accusation....shrug. No, I don`t know the guy, sounds like a real nice person, however....most of us WERE very good people in twi.....that is why evil was able to flourish. It had our pure hearts and wholesom characters to hide behind.... I don`t think that is a good thing no matter how *nice* we were...we lured people in to a snare in spite of our best intentions. I don`t see that as a good thing then or now.

That made absolutely no sense dove. I think that it is silly to attack me personally by makeing a goofey comparison to lcm...lol Geer is a psycho, his dogma was compiled by a psycho, it didn`t help either men stop from being psychotic predators..... Darn right, by participation one lends their credibilty and honor to those who are evil...covering their true nature....shrug Guilt by association in my book.

Yeah Johniam, maybe your buddy is a nice guy and runs nice fellowships....but that is what will suck people in (just like in twi) ...people who expect the same wholesom christian character in other members of geers group and will instead experience abuse and cruelty. Your buddy recieves materials and teachings from a guy who`s doctrine didn`t prevent him from being a viscious, psycho freak. It is guilt by association, so yeah it is a pity....the well meaning guy is promoting evil. It is worse than a terminal disease.

Guess there are those of us who want to hear and apreciate dave and mstars contributions even if you don`t sprawled.

Rich Watkins was a real sh1t when he was in Alabama. He administered my first face melting ...shiver It was so frightening to have that huge oaf screaming in my face that I never ever twitched a hair out of line of twi thought after that. He was an idiot too...when jt heard what he had been teaching/requiring the next year in ks...he was livid Figures that he would go with that psycho Geer <_< Gives him license to feel oh so superior and spiritual about the abuse that he inflicts on people. Wish that I could run accross that pompous a$$ today...lol

That was beautifull wayfer not.

They would have to have musicians ad tallent...all of that was run out of twi YEARS ago.

Fancy that..... How many of twi`s top leadership (starting with vp himslf) answere those descriptions? Makes me feal pretty stupid when I see it all laid out in print like that.

Happy Birthday Jessica! My daughter Jessica turned 18 today also.

The *first breath* being alive teaching is a pretty far stretch in the manipulation of scriptures. Come on logically....What does breathing do? It introduces oxygen to our blood stream...right?? So guess what? the baby has been recieving oxygen via the mother all along!! By the same token ...they taught us that because cancer requires oxygen and blood flow to grow...it was considered *alive* ..thus the demon posessed garbage for any who were ill. Wierwille imo, needed a convenient justification to bully people into aborting, after all ...couldn`t have all of that evidence of sexual immorality bearing mute testimoney to those who weren`t spiritual enough to handle their *freedom in Christ* So he tortures scripture to say what he wants it to....just like with all of the women in the kingdom and every part of the body being equal (no difference between penis and finger etc) We couldn`t let these corpes/wow gals side lined with responsibility that would detract from their duty to the ministry <_< Maybe you have to have carried a baby to term in your womb, experienced the personality, the habits of each individual child....how they jump when startled, they turn towards sound and stinulous, they suck their thumb, swallow, breath, to understand just how alive they are. One of mine would consistantly turn when being poked and push back from the other side..... I only know that for myself and most whom I speak with....those whom were bullied and badgered by those *biblical* arguments , that it is a decision that never stops haunting us. I would think that if it just didn`t matter, if it were nothing more than a bunch or paracitical cells as we were taught....or that it really was a trick from satan to keep us from honoring our spiritual duty...... that we would feel PROUD of what we did for God....OR.... that we would just be able to conveniently chalk it up like every other foolish thing that we have done in our youth ..... and simply dismiss it as just one of the more stupid things that we did when we were younger. All I can say is that this is different. You can`t fix it. You just try to find a way to live with the choices that you have made.

I liked him too...it is hard to imagine his exhuberance permanently silenced...sigh

You nailed it ...Alfakat! I do believe now that if Mrs. W had outed vic and his shenanigans, vic would have turned on her and ripped her apart even as others such as yourself were. He was in love with his power and fans and would not have let anything touch that, I think. What a rotten shame..... Absolutely, we would have all shaken our heads sadly that such a once great lady could become so posessed. Heck thats what they told us about why John Lynn and Ralph D. Left...we were told not only don`t go to any meetings they held ...but to not speak to anybody who had because they more than likely had become posessed as well. I freaking believed it!! It would have been even worse for mrs.

Great post Abby. I understand chemical imbalance, have lived with it for years. Stress, pregnancies, pms was enough to send things so far out of whack that the anxiety attacks suffered seemed like they would crush me. Too bad that Iwas taught to be afraid of medicines and Dr.s it would have saved a decade or so of needless suffering. Too bad that it is viewed as a sign of weakness to get help when needed. I recently found out that each of my brother and sisters suffers from the same symptoms occasionally .. I now recognise the symptoms in my mom as well. I even see it in one of my daughters. What is great is that now that I understand that it is not a devil spirit issue, nor a suck it up and renew your mind issue or a pray a little harder issue....I am able to help my daughter when her stress and anxiety become overwhelming. It really HELPS to know that it is chemical and when the brain stops misfiring the fear/run/scared message .... we will be just fine...in other words we know that it will pass shortly if we don`t feed into it. It is wonderfull to know that there is a medicine that will help restore balance IF it ever becomes overwhelming again.

I only interacted with Mrs. W twice. One time when I was riding on the twig hopper....VPW was a cold cold fish...never SPOKE to me the whole ride which of course had me terrified that I must smell spiritually or something. I was in the side car and Mrs. was riding behind him....She was totally awsome...leaned over and spoke to me the entire trip pointing out land marks....aasking personal questions...in otherwords making me feel like I was somebody that was worth getting to know. I thought it awsome that she could be the gracious friendly hostess even on the back of a motor cycle....She was warm and caring, realising that this was probably the biggest moment of my entire life...and NOT letting VP ruin it with his taciturn disposition. The second time she was teaching at a big state meeting in witchita....in her sharing, she mentioned that she had been deeply wounded by somene at hq (this was after vp had died) She said that she had been so miserable....to the point of beeing in tears .... Her teaching revolved around being able to find forgivness and love in her heart.... Anyway...I just remember being so angry....how DARE anybody mistreat that dear lady??? When we were all hanging out afterwards...we chatted I know that there was an overwhelming feeling of sadness that she was trying to cover up in her gentle kindness.... I don`t know...it was just a tiny glimpse into her life at way world, that she was not being treated with the care and respect that she ought to have had there. I also know that when we all rode the motor cycle ...she was wonderfull...she *felt* good, warm. VP on the other hand gave me the stone cold creepy crawlies....at the time I put down the overwhelming feeling of scariness to my own spiritual shortcomings and lack.

Well said mstar....

What about what it cost in self esteem when submitting to the humiliation of face meltings? What about the cost of lives of the children that were eliminated because their conception was an inconvenient distraction from honoring our corpes commitment? What about the sanity of our sisters and brothers who couldn`t handle vp` n lcm`s *freedom in christ* when it came to themselves or their spouses being the mog`s newest playtoy? What about our brothers and sisters who died in attempting to obey their leaders directions? Sometimes *cost* isn`t just about dollar amounts.

How do *I* feel? I feel like each of us is *fractured* in one way or another, each of us has our own unique trigger points that drive us up to and some times over the edge. I think that twi teaching forces many of us remain in denial of our frailty .....struggeling in secret shame year after year to cope with our anxieties alone...forcing us to ignore our symptoms...I know some who mask their over powering symptoms of depression with alcohol and drugs. Girl, I honestly am impressed that you have the courage to go against twi teaching and all we believed to seek outside help. You know that I think that you are brilliant in your ability to see through the sheet and nail an issue right on....I think that you are a couragious indomitable soul. It is cool that you post of your personal journey towards relief. In doing so, in exposing this to the light, it makes it not seem so shamefull ...that it is ok to seek help. I am so thankfull that you are getting the professional help that you need to find peace..... I think that this is yet just one more step in your journey to peace...I am so glad that you are on your way to feeling better...I always feel like identification of the problem and formulating a game plan is a big part of the battle. You ROCK girl friend!

I know that the purges n the late eighties were refferred to as *pruning the way tree of dead wood* That line about pruning the vine chilled me. I agreee kev, thank GOD for the allens for eliminating the avenue for this lunatic to hurt people.

Twinot, why could vpw not be put in the catagory of *false prophet*? I mean aren`t we given a clear set of behaviors that men *of the flesh* exhibit in the scriptures? Is Jim Jones and David Koresche in this catagory? Yet I have heard former followers of both men defend them as good men that taught them about God. Does not the counterfit have to resemble the genuine very very closely in order to decieve? Would God have had to give such chrystal clear instructions in the scriptures if it was not so difficult for us to recognise a false prophet or wolf in sheeps clothing? The drunkeness and weakness in the area of sex (a pretty mild term imo for the drugging and rape of our trusting teenage sisters) ...the viscious cruelty, the savaging of innocent reputations ......exhibited to those vpw was given to pastor......scripturally (if one wants to accept that as the Godly standard) ..... uncatagprically in galatians ELIMINATES vpw as a man of God or spirit, and places him squarely in the catagory as being *of the flesh*. Just because we believed so ardently in twi`s *good* ...that there were many pure hearted christians (and I place Mrs. W in this catagory) who DID participate in twi and bless countless peoples lives...in spite of the evil......does NOT mean that we were not decieved by an evil person, a man who CHOSE to live *in the flesh* rather than be of *the spirit* ....that the manipulation of scriptures led us into a snare.... .....and in the end .....ending up many times leading to our corruption....rather than leading us to the walk of a genuine christian.

Guess that maybe one would have to experience being abused, not just physically but mentally as well, in order to understand the utter hopelessness of the situation. You have been taught all of your life that God, society and family all expect you to endure with stoiscim whatever your husband dishes out. Maybe you stay to protect your children from his rages and tirades. So you try a little harder to please, pray more, cook better, be better in bed...find a way to some how take the edge off of his anger... There really was no out for a woman back then with kids if she didn`t have family to support her....there wasn`t welfare or food stamps. You just sucked it up and tried to endure the shame as best you could. It is damned near impossible to stand up for yourself when you believe that in doing so you are going against GOD`S will....that HE won`t be able protect you or your children if you break those vows... It is a lonely dark prison, you have to admire the lady for managing to not succumb to bitterness and cruelty herself imo.

Gonna weigh in here... Great points word wolf, I hope that you never stop keeping the record straight and people honest here. twinot, i have to say that you are sounding pretty darned judgemental and harsh about a lady who most of us understand didn`t have a lot of options. She was his first *con* and by the time she found out differently she was stuck with small children. Geeemany.....She believed that she was getting away from her awfull home, she believed that vpw was going to be a minister and that she would be allowed to be a missionary....she had an honest heart to serve God. I know that I believed the twi sheet about marriage, as I am sure did she.....about being honor bound to God to obey my mariage vows no matter what the husband did ....even in THIS day and age. There are a lot of us that believed that God required us to maintain our silence and pain in order to be concidered a *virtuous* woman. We let twi define what aGod expected of a wife and so put up with whatever transpired because we obeyed a higher law. We were taught that if we obeyed the husband, that God would honor our commitment and make everything alright anyway. Guess I can understand praying steadfast day after day, trusting that God would intercede....watching my husband become more cruel and unbearable year after year....tearfully brokenly begging God to *fix* things. I did read where Mrs W shared that when she once confronted vpw, he simply told her that if she didn`t like it she could just leave. She had no where to go with small children, and felt honor bound to God to obey her marriage vows. It is a wonder that she remained so unsullied and above the sin and filth that vpw introduced into their life. Yeah, she lost it a time or two....but who in the he ll wouldn`t having to live with that shame and humiliation....are we forgetting how persuasive that .... head was?

Well oldies, rather than recieving an explanation or clarification from hq, every one ELSE could expect to recieve centure, punishment and even banishment as has been shown to be the case when others question policy in twi.

What a DELIGHTFULL suprise!!! Lol I was so dissapointed that I missed the roast...sigh. I had to pretend all weekend that it really wasn`t going on without me.....sigh I kept thinking right up untill the last moment that circumstances would change and i would be there.....sigh Then Bow called and brightly announced that they were *bringin the roast to rascal*!!! What delightfull people! I was delighted to see our wonderfull bow again...AND I got to meet the brilliant cool waters live and in person :) It was a real treat....we talked and giggled ...ate the kansas strip steaks that had been intended for the weenie roast....mmmmmm they met rosey the crude cockatoo and nova the wonder colt.....along with the the dane and shepherds various cats, ducks, and tortose. Get this......the princess wanted to hear the song *amazing grace* ...so I told her that I thought that I remembered that one and got out my guitar which has not been been picked up much in the last few years....well I dug out an old sing along the way....and doggone it one song led to another.... lol we had so much fun singing old fellowship/way prod songs that I ended up missing (and I NEVER play hooky) my first karate class and was 30 miniutes late for the second one I never played much when in the ministry ...never felt good enough...If ANYBODY had tried to tell me that I would have so much fun playing and singing ...much less remember all of those goofy old songs....I`d a said they were NUTS! ANYTHING twi tends to turn my stomache these days...rofl guess I am not such a hard butted cynic as I imagined myself to be... CW and Bow heroically refrained from noticing the lack of a finely manicured lawn....the missing cieling tiles in the den and lack of floor tiles in the hall...the chipping paint....the rosey chewed window frames....the windows dirty from dog paw prints....lol They made me feel like my ramshackled old farm house was a palace. They made my rambunctious youngsters seem like saints...they saw the ***** cat under the gruff exterior of the guest spouse...etc. In other words they made me feel like the most fortunate woman on the planet. Thanks girls, hope that your journey home is enjoyable, I am astonished and moved that you would add 10 or 12 hours on to yourall ready long trip in order to vist :) Sudo and Suda, I hated missing a chance to meet up with you folks, My teens would have had a ball meeting yours and hawks kiddoes. Hawk, maybe I can make a trip up to visit you n Corey...do you guys still ride? Will you let horse back riders join your mule rides? Edited to add...i cannot believe that I couldn`t say poosey cat ...hee hee ..it never occured to me that it would be a bad word

Can I be in charge of security? I would love nothing better than to be present to escort some of those fat cats off grounds. I would allow them the same hour under direct supervision of security to pack any personals they wanted to take...that they graciously gave others. If they didn`t have a vehicle, I would drop them off at the nearest bus station with one ticket and no money ... Where would they go? How would they eat? Who would pick them up? Dunno, not my problem, but isn`t that the same amount of courtesy granted so many of us?

Dunno seems to me.....that the only *dagger throwing* being done around here is by the accuser. I suppose that it really can be annoying when all of the other posters don`t respond as one feels personally they should. Kind of reminds me of that picture of the snooty looking dog with the caption... *Those of you that think you know every thing, are REALLY annoying to those of us who really DO!*