rascal

I don`t know how she ever could have put out anything other than an informercial seeing as how everyone involved in the process from start to finish were innies... I mean how do you talk about what she personally endured, how would they explain the timeif she related instances like dot n Don` spoke of....the times she sobbed in peoples arms. I know at a witchita meeting after vp`s death at least one time she spoke of someone at hq hurting her deeply....(no details..but as a teaching about loving and forgiving) why all but one of her children were forbidden to visit her in their ancestral home, why she was dumped in a nursing home when she became to old and frail to be of any use any more...etc As a side note, we have a friend who`s mom is 89 years old and has alzheimers. These people want their mother to end her days in the home that she loved...so one of the daughters left her home to move in...and drives an hour n half to work every day.....they pay to have someone (my adult daughter) sit in the home with the mother every day until she gets home from work. My Uncle does the same thing for my aunt...there is someone there to help her remember what she wants to say, to be there to help to prevent falls ...etc. Now I know that this isn`t always available....that the time might come where they have to put them in a home...but my point is.... That is what you do for some one you care about, you do your very best.....we do that for our elderly neighbor....that is the very least that someone should have done for Mrs. W. not toss her into a nursing home when she was no longer useful, when she was deemed a nuisance.... that is just what you do I`ll tell you, twi wouldn`t come out pretty in any book that she really wrote...

Well, a derail here to say....Well done Ham :) Also Krys!! Congratulations you too! N potato, GO for it!! I started my impossible dream at 39 :)

Good catch Excathedra, thanks for the heads up. I hope newlife returns to read this. My apologies for being insensitive.

Newlife, I too was horrified by your disturbing account. What twi leaders did was inexcusable...what they counceled you, excathedra, me, all of us to do in the name of God, as ministers, as people who claimed authority over our lives was just plain sickening. What despicable people these were.

Well it seems so many many times when presenting the *pro* twi side of things.... folks can`t seem to do it without a nasty little back hand to others.

oh oh...I just saw your edited post!!! You changed a word...Pawtucket actually said *DEFENDING the greatness of twi leadership* You said that he said that we couldn`t DISCUSS it....clever oldies. What Dove was doing was attacking people who were discussing leadership in order to defend them...big big difference.

...and I think that you are picking one thing out of context trying to make this into something that it really is not.....aka unfair treatment of a poster because of their position on twi. I ALSO think that this is an insult to pawtucket and the moderators who try to make this place fair and balanced for all participants ...not an easy job for a group as widely varied as ourselves.

Why? At least they were clear. I think he was extremely clear ....Heck, I was banned, locked out of GS without warning for 3 days, I was then allowed to read but not post for an entire month...shrug....n I garaundamntee ya it wasn`t because what I was typing was pro ministry...lol I figured out the rules pretty quickly after that. :)

It is behavior not position that determines what is unacceptable. I have been reprimanded and disciplined as severely as any here, even occasionally on your behalf :) ....and yet, I am the polar opposite of you and Dove on twi issues. To intimate any less is an insult to the forbearance and patience of those who run this site. Just telling the other side of the story....doesn`t deign that it is pro or anti ... it is simply the other side of the story..our story what we saw, experienced, endured. The problem seems to be when a person stops telling their story, and instead,begins a relentless campaign to silence anothers that they don`t like. According to the post, the one being called to task had no interest in the subject being discussed but was simply attacking people ... It wasn`t accidental, the posters actions were deliberate...I think that you know that too.

I know how rotten and flawed the foundational teachings are on which this man built his ministry. no matter what he has changed. He still venerates wierwille. That is enough to indicate to me that there is a serious lack of understanding of spiritual matters, and presents credibility issue if one wants to be a representative of God. If he is aware of wierwilles madness, which according to DWBH he was....then it becomes a character issue as well. Sorry, I just don`t have another decade or two to invest in someone elses ministry on the chance that they might have changed... twi sucked me dry. Until VF or any other off shoot leader has the courage to publicly distance themself from wierwille, his doctrine, and his practices, then they are to be regarded with suspicion.

EXACTLY!! We gave that money to God...and it was used for all kinds of stupid crap...it is what those fat cats live off of today at hq. They subsist on what we gave. They sit in buildings that we built, behind computers that bought monitoring this site, snooping into their remnants lives...eating food paid for with the money that we gave them.... They would never survive on what the current participants are able to provide.

Edited

Gosh Dove, you changed what I said and attacked me on what YOU say I said. I never intimated that you weren`t active. Please read my quote. What I ACTUALLY said was that you were not active participant in those programs. You also attack me on the made up premiss that I claimed to know a man or his work. I never ever said that. Are you being deliberately dishonest? Do you feel thathave anything goes in your smack downs? Why is it you feel that such nastiness is acceptable? I corrected you on your misrepresentation of my position, and yet you persist on your unwarranted snide and nastiness. I think to continue to answere your silliness simply feeds into your feelings of self importance.

WOOOOHOOOOO! My brothers unit is returning!!! Thank you God!!!

Dove were you present in twi during the homo purges? Where you one of the people who were falsely accused? Their families torn from them?? Their friends to turn from them in disgust and horror? Everything of importance ripped from your life? I don`t think so, or you wouldn`t have made that pathetic comparison.

One can be geographically present and be clueless, of course, how silly, nobody disputes that. But to claim that our experiences on the wow field or in the way corpes or teachings heard and standards enforced in other states...are false, and our testimonies exaggerations...that you have a realistic understanding as to the real nature of Wierwille and martindale...what was undernieth their public persona and company manners.....well that isn`t very realistic to believe that you have an accurate picture of the entire ministry. So it appears that you try to diminish the value of everybody elses experience and testimony You Dove, are the one that remains clueless as to the suffering and misery inflicted ministry wide by very cruel, evil men.

He can`t. But he still wants folks to believe that his second hand information is better than everybody elses first hand experiences. He has lost most of his credibility to call into question our testimonies, as we now know that he was not ever an active participant in these programs, so it appears that he is doing his damndest to attempt to destroy or discredit everyone else who present information and experience that is contrary to how he wishes to believe twi had been.

Exactly Dooj, you have two people right here at Greasespot who held a sobbing Mrs. Wierwille, most people would be stricken, disgusted at his actions, moved with compassion but Dove wants to attack Don. You have people discussing the actions of a horrible man in order to try to provide the information to help a friend who is being deceived and sucked into a proven dangerous group. Someone is being deceived into believing that twi is a Christian group with Godly doctrine. Rather than address this lie, rather than allow people to warn someone of their impending ensnarement.... Dove wants to attack the people who have lived and dealt with these people first had, whom have had first hand experience and seen what wierwilles real nature is...those whom eventually escaped the trap. Doreen, wierwille didn`t just drug and rape one poster here, Dot has written at length on her experiences with his expectations and ludeness towards her as well. In addition to the several first hand accounts shared here at greasespot through the years, and what wierwille did to them if they didn`t comply...there is a web site called messiah7 that has several first hand accounts of sexual abuse by wierwille. There is a book featured on the front page of this site by a woman Kristin Skedgil documenting her time in the ministry and how wierwille insisted that she have sex with him in order for her to not be suicidal. There are taped interviews to listen to as well. Any chance that your friend would read the book or listen to her recordings?? The posters here have LIVED this stuff, we know how dangerous involvement in twi is.... DOve cannot dispute these first hand accounts according to the new rules of these forums, so he will do his best to find some obscure part of someones post to pick apart. He effectively draws the focus away from all of the other meaningful information and damning accounts.

No, that is what you Dove are trying to make it.

Why do you feel it is your mission to disrupt people speaking of their experiences with your second hand information? (I notice that when anyone else is speaking it is *second hand* but when you use second hand information...it is now termed *factual* nice switch there) What you do is hurtful..ok? Why not let us discuss our experiences, you feel free to discuss yours? If the people that give you your second hand information want to post it first hand here, well then that would be great we will discuss theirs as well :) Everyone contributes pieces of the puzzle, everyone gets to see the bigger more complete picture. Much more effective then trying to throw away or obscure the pieces that we can`t make fit, or don`t like from everyone else.

Dove, I am sorry, I don`t think what you do is acceptable, no matter how you attempt to justify the nastiness :(

Lol...there are people with access to the very same *factual* information that you had dove, who have come to a very different conclusion....that instead, that the us gvt in a secret plot actually blew up the building internally. Your *factual* information is not enough to call into question the veracity and credibility of the people posting of their experiences.

Sorry Dove, that makes absolutely no sense. You apparently have a problem with people holding you accountable. It simply is not credible for you to deny the experiences, teachings, standards that people were held to in various programs, in other states, at different time periods, having never been a participant yourself, and having only been in one small geographic area. Sorry, that is how it is. Sorry that chaps your bu tt. That does not make it right for you to relentlessly troll through the forums, looking for a reason to try to destroy the credibility and try to call into question the veracity of the people who actually DID participate, who really DO want to discuss the events experienced. Do you not think that every damned one of us wish that we had been permitted to enjoy your idyllic twi experiences? That we don`t wish with all of our hearts that twi was as you portrayed it for us??? What you do is mean and disruptive, no matter how you justify it to yourself.

I see what you are saying Waysider. So much of what is scriptural is sometimes simply judean cultural of 2000 plus years ago. Things change along with our spirituality and understanding. Women cut their hair, own property are educated, allowed into the church service, allowed a voice in public matters, allowed to decide their marriage and careers....all things forbidden to them scripture wise. There is therefor now no more jew nor gentile bond nor free, male nor female...we are all one in Christ...I`d say that changes the dynamics of marriage significantly. I`d say that in just the last hundred years the dynamics of marriage have changed significantly and for the better. We see what life is like in the countries who insist on conducting their affairs according to the unchanging standards of their religion as dictated 1000s of years previously.

How desperately sad :( Doreen, if there is one thing that I have learned through the years, it is that God will work through people to help us when we cannot or will not hear him. Some times it takes a variety of people, and time, but I don`t believe he ever gives up on us....Never doubt that what you do will have impact. Dove, how typical to try to drag this whole thread off topic by taking one comment out of dozens to attack a poster. It could have been taken pt, if you believe that a poster is mistaken. I haven`t read Mrs. W`s book, but I DO know that at least one poster said of her that on the very day of VPW`s funeral...Mrs. said to the people present that very thing...that *he was a mean mean man* She said it, whether it was in book or witnessed immediately after vp`s funeral...what a freaking legacy.