Really Mandii

Rachel said "VP put single people and families together, under one roof to "move the Word" and caused them all to sin by the rampant illicit sex that can't but help to occur when men and women - or men/men - women/women live in such close quarters." So is that ALL without distinction or all without exeception? Just kidding, just don't go painting everyone with the same wide sex brush you got there, not everyone and certainly not ALL had sex just because they lived together, I am proof of that. Victor Paul Wierwille went to great lengths to separate himself from the general Christian community, which had separated themselves hundreds of years ago from the Roman Catholic doctrines that came from Rome. How you perceive that VPW continued in the Roman Catholic doctrines escapes me. There has never been proof of mass baby graves. I know I had heard of it before, especially since TWI and VP whored a book called The Babylonian Mystery Religion which compares the RC church to Pagan (gasp) religion, and mentions mass baby graves, but there has never been archaeological proof for it. I don't doubt that any nuns could have gotten pregnant and disposed of their baby one way or another or that it could have happened to many. But that is just assumptions and it is a grand leap in assumptions to say that and then claim there are mass baby graves. Especially since the author pulled the book and retracted it. VPW denied the Trinity, a major crux of many mainstream Christian religions and many not so mainstream. He denied that one could lose their salavation which the RC church maintains. The RC church also believes in different types of sins such as venial and cardinal which is hinged upon the person's motivation and understanding which VP mocked in the PFAL class as being wrong. All sins were sins and it was just called a mising of the mark. Further, VP did away with sin in a believer's life and called it broken fellowship while other Christians call it sin. He denied that the dead are alive now, which most Christian religions believe that they are alive elsewhere. He denied giving to charities, all money should go to TWI to help move his version of the Bible. He did not believe in the Lord's Prayer. Vain repetition. He did not believe in the Saints, can't prayer to anyone not even Jesus. He did not believe in the Immaculate Conception which has nothing to do with Jesus but everything to do with his Mother, Mary as it is believed she was born without the stain of original sin so that she would be a worthy vessel to carry the Logos, the Son of the FAther. Reference is made to the fellow in the Old Testament who reached out to touch the ark of God when it look like it was going to fall off the stand it was on and he was struck down dead and how Mary had to be beautified, sanctified and set apart from others to be able to be granted to carry the only begotten Son of God. VP claimed along with other leaders that the Pope was born of the seed of the serpent. VP claimed that along with Martindale that all Christian images such as the cross and those statues were like dog whistles that debil spirits could hear and were like lightening rods in attracting them. VP did not believe in a middle man confession to a priest and did not believe in confessing individual sins (PFAL) he believed in as he said, Confessing the Savior from sins. VP did not believe in fasting in a type of worship mode or in self sacrifice while the RC church does along with many other Christian religions. VP didn't believe in any type of self sacrifice for himself and the other fasts we were introduced was some new improved quack way to cleanse out your bowels, all fads. VP taught we were free from the law and that the Ten Commandments were not for us and that the gospels were never addressed to us. The RC church along with many Christian religions do not believe this and the RC church gives emminence to the gospels. The RC church does believe you will still answer for what you have done here while VP taught that there is no accounting for sins at the Bema. Now some other Christian religions agree with that, but the RC church does not and that is the issue here. In investigating the RC church and it's hold on people way back when when church and state were never separated over in Euorpe, yes we see some dietary laws instituted through the church, because they WERE the law. Not eating meat on Fridays, I read once was a response to a shortage of meat and to solve that problem people were told to fast. As for not eating unclean animals such as pigs, I do not know if that is true. I know other sources say that pigs were a big part of the medieval diet. http://books.google.com/books?id=MO_Obx4ns...-ARfC0#PPA72,M1 I guess my main purpose in responding to you post is that it has never been my opinion that VPW and TWI has continued in standard Christian practice and doctrine. I do believe and for many good reasons that VPW and LCM and TWI have done everything to distance themselves from just that and do not consider other Christians to be on the same par with them and I think that doctrine has gotten even more judgmental since I left TWI. VPW was not a wanderer in the many tenets of Christianity but sought to make himself a king with a new religion that just borrowed Christian terminology from a widely accepted religion to make his look more legit. The only true Christianity that could have been found in TWI were the people who were recruited that somewhere in their hearts the love of God truly lived. VP sought to make himself a leader with an army. He did not want a bunch of reclusive people who did nothing but hide behind convent walls who prayed but rather who could go out and further the purposes of TWI and in my opinion, be there to fullfil his own dark purposes. There was nothing haphazard or accidental about anything he did, anything he taught and anything that happened. His ministry was not in response to a society where church ruled everyone aspect of a person's life and the best way a poor person could climb in society was to get a patron to sponsor him in the church. VP's club existed solely through the desires and ego of one man, and that was himself. It is not the fault of any other religion, government or institution that caused VP to form TWI. There are no excuses for what he did, what he taught and what he taught the inner sanctum of his male leaders to do. Claiming that it was modeled after another corrupted institution does not smooth it over or make it understanble or less devilish. TWI is what it is and all on it's own; a train out of control.

The Knight's of Columbus (of which my husband is a member) and the Mason's do no consider themselves 'secret societies.' A true secret society means you would not know they existed nevertheless how to get in touch with them, period. Both societies are easily found and contacted for membership; one within the Roman Catholic Church, your local cathedral or the Masons and their affiliate orders such as the Order of the Eastern Star can be reached either through a friend or relative of yours that is a member or even through the internet. Both societies and I am speaking of first hand knowledge or with that knowledge want members that will represent the society well and having a good reputation, no crimes or anything offensive in your background is a must. I don't know when that started, but with those I know, those rules are in place. As for secret, TWI critics tried to guess what was going on during a PFAL session as well since no non paying, non registered people were allowed to attend. Secrecy and occultism is in the eye of the beholder. Many fundamental Christians consider the health and wealth gospel along with speaking things into being part of the New Age movement and as having occult roots.

Ironic. A 'ministry' that started with a man, namely VPW who copied and used other men's work and passed it off as his own with little regard for assigning credit where it belonged and then starts suing people who are using the name The Way and have in the past used the name, The Way (remember Pat Roberge?) the term that is coined in Act 9:2 and Acts 24:14 because this ministry of TWI feels that it belongs solely to them? They feel it is their baby so to speak, that others have stepped on their copy right? That they are not getting the credit? How many have supported VPW's right to steal, lift and negligently borrow other's work as a right thing to do because it all belongs to God anyway, although any one who has to 'creatively borrow' other's work shows how lacking someone is in their own spiritual relationship and ethics with God Almighty now cries foul when someone else uses a label from the bible that seems to infringe on their own label for their group? Isn't it all of God anyway, the name "The Way?" None of those men whose work were stolen sued. Yet this supposed Christian ministry sues for a name they did not create or can claim originality to. How Christian. P.S. Personally I wished the men defrauded of their research they way they were by VP did sue. Just think of how much of the monster that TWI was and became would have been contained if not stopped if VP could not lie about receiving revelation from God to teach the word like it had NEVER been known since the first century church. What a ripple effect it could have caused from that claim to all the way to "Daddy's Cookie Jar, Green Light revy" etc.

All I can remember is that in 1979 there was a lot of talk about our country going down as in being attacked or taken over; this was also the scuttle butt in 1976 where the word was supposedly there was a group of them who had rewritten the constitution and were going to take over the country. But in 1979 there was an urge for believers to live together and to stock up and get wood burning stoves and such like. I don't remember any SIT alerts. In 1985, living in a branch home we were roused from our beds as we got the alert late about VP dying and we had a SIT alert and I kept my mouth shut about wondering why we were not awaken while he was still alive but going downhill and pray for him and SIT then instead of doing it once he died. I do remember living in a branch home in CA in 1986 that CG put out an alert over the phone which the Corps couple had to write down as it was dictated over the phone. Then they had to type it up. Then they called a twig leader meeting and read the proclamation about certain leaders trying to take off with the ministry's ABS and a whole bunch of whowaaa that didn't make sense. It was all for the dramatic flair. They were even instructed when to take breaks from reading this phone in document and when to continue. Then in 1987 there was another meeting, I believe an emergency meeting where CG called all the corps together on a phone hook up and reamed them and blamed them for not getting their acts together and thus causing all the problems in the ministry. He also blamed Dean Don and others for murdering VPW with their negative believing. Oh let's not forget POP where he (CG)called all the high and might leadership together and told them that a large percentage was possessed and had advisors in the field who were also possessed. Made up? You betcha. And for the person's own benefit to scare the beegeezus out of people and produce a facade that wasn't true.

I dunno I remember specifically VP saying in PFAL that God Almighty gave him revelation and a snow storm as a sign to prove that God was talking to him and telling VP that God would teach VP the word like it hadn't been known since the 1st century church and some lady would call VP in his office late at night because she knew VP would be there working the word and she would ask him what God taught him lately and he would tell her, thus starting out on VP's promise to God to teach it as God was teaching it to him......and those statements in PFAL trumph any one liners in the book Way living in Love any day. But then I call a train wreck a train wreck and a derailment a derailment while one or two others may call it getting to know the neighbors with a big bang.

I agree with you I suppose that person who is using the Bible to justify hurting people and being able to sweep it under the carpet forgot about the verse about brining a gift to the altar of God and if you remember that your brother has something against you, that person with the gift should go make it right with that brother before offering anything to God. Seems to me that Jesus was more concerned about people treating each other right and making amends before they could ever offer a spiritual gift or offering to God. But then those who can justify rampant sociopathic abuse would like to tell us that the gospels don't apply to us because it's Old Testament or different administration like truth can change. Oh wait, they did tell us that!!!!!

I can't read through this whole thread, I did about four pages. I got involved in TWI in 1975, took the class in Jan 1976 and as early as 1976 I heard the line of "Happy is he in the thing he alloweth" in reference to sex and drugs and I was told by leadership to quit judging people who were doing just that. In 1978 I had some twig leader trying to give me that swill because he wanted a sexual relationship with me and told me in addition to there being no condemnation that two believers having sex was okay but a believer and non believer was like hooking up with a whore of Satan or some crapola like that. I told him to shove it up his yahoo. We had a branch leader make his way through the females of the branch. I have been oogled and leered at by some of the most popular Revs of TWI and don't tell me I don't know a sexual undressing via the eyes when I see it and that includes being leered at by VPW himself. I had Revs practically sit on my lap when I was in alone in the branch home I lived in and in the early 1980's I was told by a believer that Rev F was telling the males it was okay for a married man to have sex with other females as it was godly and spiritual to have their needs taken care while they were away from their wives. So Oldies, most of the sex was between a married man (or woman) and a single female (or male). How does that fit into your right and wrong perspective? How about a man or woman of God keeps it zipped up tighter than a zip lock freezer bag. Ethics class tells you if it can't go on the front page of a newspaper, it shouldn't be done, the lockbox be dammed. I was told to dump those who didn't believe or want to believe as their were spiritual hitchhikers (remember that one?) and just living off of our believing. Corps leadership told me that, repeatedly. Don't be unequally yoked with unbelievers, remember that? Not even your own family. TWI was great at condemming family traditions (and you can still see remnants of that teaching over in the open forum where posters warn against having traditions) because TWI wanted NO tradition or family event before a TWI event because it was putting other things before the things of God. TWI twisted the scripture where Jesus condemmed the Pharisees for teaching rules of men as commandments of God and it got twisted by TWI so they could effectively separate us from our own families and if TWI tried to separate us from our own families, (advanced classes at Thanksgiving time, etc) from our own careers it is ONLY a hop skip and a jump to separate us from friends or potential friends. It was all about control. Control over us. What we seem to forget is that TWI had two ways of teaching us. One was overt teachings that was documented and up front. The other was covert where ideas, issues and thoughts were implanted without us even knowing it, knowing how far it went in ministry teachings and how much it affected us and it is so covert that we end up twenty years later on a message board debating if it really happened or was said or was true. The paper that John S wrote. I remember that. I also remember the spiritual hype and fear campaign that CG started against anyone reading the paper. He said that John S' paper undermined the whole work of VPW in that it supported the .....drum roll please.............THE TRINITY!!!!!!!!!!! OMG, The Triniity???? What an effective way to keep people from reading the paper by making them afraid of 1. aiding in undermining the great teacher of all times work 2. OMG THE TRINITY (what an effective tool to control people that became) and 3. He said you would get possessed, another effective tool of keeping people in line.

Hi Noni I can understand trying to make up for lost time and memories after coming out of a group like the JW's or the one here I was associated with. Tasting life and freedom for the first time, second time or the upteenth time is wonderful, exciting and thrilling. I wish you all the best as you move forward in finding your liberties and life as it should be. Of course not everyone who celebrates the holiday of Christmas is Christian or acknowledges or believes that this is the time Jesus was born. It is such a multi fauceted holiday that anyone can celebrate and enjoy, coming at the time when the sun appears longer every day. Traditions depend on what is important to you. What do you like to do? I am sure that if you marry and have children, you will add more tradtions to your celebrations. When I was growing up, we were kinda poor so our celebrations stayed simple. My father was granted a turkey from his job every Thanksgiving and Christmas so we had that for our holiday dinners and it was wonderful. My parents used to wait to the last minute on Christmas Eve to buy one of the cheapest trees and would come home with a Charlie Brown type of tree and I have the pics to prove it ;) They would put it up after us kids went to bed and told us that Santa and his elves did it and we all would get about one toy as a gift and then underwear or socks from our grandparents (oh joy). Before my parents bought the tree and sent us to bed, they would first take us out in the car and we would drive around looking at the Christmas lights/decorations on everyone's house. With my family, I put up the decorations the weekend after Thanksgiving. I love the holiday so I can't wait to get started. My windows are decored in red bows and red beads, my doorways in the living and dinning room are decorated with green garland and white lights as is the stair way and we hang the stockings from that. Of course there is my tree and we use an artificial one due to allergies to the pine trees. We plan our Christmas Eve buffet together which is open house to my children's friends and we plan our Christmas dinner together which is also open to friends. Christmas Eve we also get in our car and drive around looking at lights and come home and eat. We have incorporated the movie, "Polar Express,' into our celebrations. When I was single, I always had some type of small tree even if that meant I decorated my ficus tree and I would exchange presents with friends. I would get invited out to dinner and you can always try having a dinner party or something in the future with friends who may not have a place to go. Christmas eve services are beautiful and you don't have to agree or believe as others do there to enjoy it. There are many things you can do to enjoy the holidays. I wish you a very Merry Christmas!

Happy Thanksgiving :)

Congratulations to you and your family and I wish you all a happy and healthy Thanksgiving!

AAAAAAAAAAAAAADDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOSSSSS!!!! *hugs*