DontWorryBeHappy

mstar!...............thanks so much for figgering out how to post that segment from moyers' journal!........i just watched it again, and it was just so great!.........btw, i also much enjoyed your celtic guitar posts too!........music, for me, is just so freaking awesome in how it connects all of us humans from every little chunk of the planet!......for me, music is more effective in uniting and "calming" humanity than all religion combined!.........and, the concept of "peace through music" resonates profoundly within me!.....................peace.

happy freakin' birthday you kwazy skwewwel you!...........and, dude, you're just about a college grad now too!!!...........way to go, and keep on goin'!........best wishes for many more birthdays livin' in good health, skewwel strength, and, of course, friend,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,peace.

HELLO SOCKS-NESS, MY OLD FIREND.......I'VE COME TO TALK WITH YOU AGAIN..........LOL!........just a short paraphrase of paul simon's first big hit.............sowwy! yeah, ......"dr.dale" is part of a self-proclaimed, self-important, and self-inflated "consortium" of unaccredited and undocumented "alien" apostles!...........as important and central to the current cycle of "spiritual events" as was der victoid and the doofus from okie himself!..........i guess they've all got spayshul rewards at the bema set aside for themselves for being so arrogantly and condescendingly "spritually perceptive and aware", above and beyond your average, christian fundamentalist, megalomaniac! when emerson got "recognized" after graduating from the first "spayshul" corps, he returned to greenville, nc as the limb coord................he promptly engaged in another of his long string of extra-marital affairs with karen ca**ack.............he left his wife, the future trunk coordinator's wife, connie panarello, to run off with karen in the fall of 1975..........this was the same karen c. whose pre-marital affair with jalvis in 2000 or so, caused jalvis' public "downfall" from the presidency of CES, at the hands of swa tra tra herself, culminating in his "firing" as CES prez, and the installation of swa tra tra's husband, mark, as CES' second prez!...........it's a small world after all, ain't it? there was a brief "alliance" or convergance between CES and "dr.dale's" "ministry" during the late 1990's...........but they split completely and nastily from each other over "doctrinal differences", a euphemism for the unavoidable and predictable clash of the huge and shameless egos common to "dr. dale", jalvis, and the graeser's, as well as schoenheit's "intellectual elitism" as the keeper to the keys of twi's "biblical research" kingdom! these guys are all the bastard children of der victoid and twi!.............the differences in the hoaxes they perepetuate on the public are basically cosmetic.........their core constituencies are all former twi way corps and other twi affiliated groups.........they pay themselves and praise themselves with no honest public accounting of their financial structures, while persistently trying to cover, obfuscate, or deny their "spiritual pedigree" in the perverse life and "ministry" of der victoid!...........as i've stated before, they are morally and spiritually bankrupt, IMO, and charlatans of the first degree................intellectually vapid, and academic frauds........................true sons of their father in da verd!! happy saturday afernoon to you too bro!..........................peace.

i knew "dr.dale' back in charlotte, nc in 1974-75, when he had just graduated from nc state with a bachelor's degree in forrestry, IIRC. he was a cocky, self-obsessesd, annoyingly boisterous pfal grad back then already, looking to make some kind of "name for himself" in the idyllic, way of nc regime run in absentia by one doug emerson, limb "leader" of nc, who was "in-residece" with the first "special corps" at twi hq in new knoxville, ohio, with his first wife connie (panarello) emerson. i was on my interim year corps assignment as the "western territory coordinator" of the way of nc. "dr.dale" was to be a twig coordinator with one cathy joh**ton, a very nice, dedicated twi follower and twig coordinator in charlotte, nc, where i was living with my spouse. although emerson had stated that charlotte was a twi "branch" of at least 7 twigs, when we arrived in august, 1974, there existed basically one twig, with a bunch of ecu students who were either leaving or going back to school in greenville, nc, home of the "famous" ecu way homes and the limb hq, now being coordinated by recent 3rd corps grad, david turk, with the "limb secretary" being one donna lombardi, 4th orps interim year gal, who would become the infamous second "first lady of twi", by marrying one l. craig martindale, upon her graduation from the 4th corps in august, 1976. "dr.dale" went on to build a "twig area" with one cathi joh**ton, later to become a 7th corps grad, and northwest region secretary for j. bu*ler, a 4th corps grad married to one barbara fa*r, 2nd corps grad, when they "ran" the north central region for twi in 1980-1982, out of the "limb" of minnesota. "dr.dale" went into the 6th corps, graduated, and eventually wound up as the limb coordinator of wyoming, and is mentioned in kris skedgell's accounts of her horrendous experiences with her 6th corps grad husband in wyoming. her husband was one of "dr.dale's" close 6th corps friends, while he was beating the crap out of kristen. it was during this time in wyoming, under "dr.dale's" fabulous "leadership", that kristen had her infamous "healing visit" with der victoid on his "bunnyhatch coach" in gunnison, co, when vic "showed" kristen what made her life "worth living" when she was so desperately suicidal because of the beating and abuse at the hands of her 6th corps husband, who, as i've already stated, was one of "dr.dale's" closest corps buddies. kristen's husband went on to become a twi "clergyman", and worked for vinny finnegan's "ministry" for a number of years during th 1990's. while "serving" as the limb coordinator of wyoming under the region "leadership" of one steve sa*n, 4th corps grad, "dr.dale" attended b.g.leonard's "gifts of the spirit class. "dr.dale's" "ministry" is as rooted in b.g.'s teaching and theologies as was "dr.vic's"! his "degrees" past his bs in forrestry are less valid than vic's!.i don't know where he got his master's, or in what. but, his "doctorate" is from some patently obvious degree mill down south somewhere and is as "accredited" as those offered by atlanta bible college which we went around and about with during our disussions with greasespotter mark clarke several weeks ago, when discussing vinny finnegan's bogus theological "credentials" post-twi. "dr.dale" is an academic, intellectual, and theological fraud! he has eerily duplicated the ministry" of der victoid , as rooted in the teachings and "spiritual insight and revelations" of b.g.leonard. he considers himself to be an "apostle", and a "prophet". his mnistry is also based on "visions and revelations" from the "one true god". he preys on many hapless, former twi followers, who seek the "expertise" "dr.dale" offers in operating the "revelation" and "power" manifestations of the holy spirit", or "the gifts" as he now terms them.......anything he hasn't plagiarized from b.g.leonard, or others......in other words, his "original" teachings, etc., is as goofy as anything der victoid could have ever devised himself. "d.dale" is as phoney as a 3 dollar bill, and equally valid academically and intellectually, IMHO.! it amazes me how much MONEY guys like "dr. dale" can make for themselves by continuing to perpetuate the hoax of genuine spiritual "power", and/or "biblical scholarship"! true to his forrestry degree, "dr.dale" has never been able to see the forrest for the trees "spiritually", intellectually, or academically since leaving twi and "building his own ministry"!!!.......like jalvis, clapp, rood, geer, et al, he is a liar, thief, and shameless huckster in the likeness of der victoid and elmer gantry!...............in the words of mr. T.................."i pity the fool"!...................peace.

hi song of the moment "gang"! long time no post for me here............but, i just tonight saw a piece on bill moyers' journal on pbs entitled "playing for change: peace through music"...........it moved me to tears!.....it's a film ten years in the making, done by a fellow named mark johnson, in which he and his team, travelled throughout the world interviewing and recording various street musicians from south afica, nepal, the congo, france, spain, england, usa, etc., etc.,............included in the film are the songs "stand by me" and "one love", performed by scores of different street players/singers from all over the world, mixed together into a single track with the videos of the various performers flashing across the screen as their combined versions of the songs play as one..............truly moving and fabulous!........the response has overwhelmed the playing for change.org site, so i have no idea how to post any of it.........try going to your pbs.org sites and see if you can watch the video of that part of moyers' show!...............it was absolutely fabulous!.......................peace.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY LINDA!! DESPITE THE FACT THAT CLEVELAND HAS COME A LONG WAY IN POLISHING UP IT'S IMAGE, (LIKE GETTIN' THE ROCK'N'ROLL HALL OF FAME, AND CLEANING UP LAKE ERIE SO WE CAN EAT THE WALLEYE AGAIN), IT'S PEOPLE LIKE YOU THAT DO THE MOST FOR CLEVELAND'S REPUTATION!!!............BEST WISHES FOR MANY MORE BIRTHDAYS ENJOYED IN HEALTH, STRENGTH, AND..........................PEACE.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY CATCUP! BEST WISHES FOR MANY MORE IN HEALTH, STRENGTH, AND PEACE.

GO SAWX!!!!!!!

HEY CYNIC!.............HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YA!..............DESPITE HOW MUCH THERE IS TO BE CYNICAL ABOUT THESE DAYS, MY SINCEREST GOOD WISHES TO YOU ON YOUR BIRTHDAY!........HOPE YOU'VE ENJOYED A GOOD DAY CELEBRATING WITH FAMILY AND FRIENDS!.............WISHING YOU MANY MORE, AND...................PEACE.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY COOLCHEF!.........SORRY WE MISSED YA AT THE BAKE!.......MAYBE NEXT YEAR!.........UNTIL THEN, BEST WISHES FOR MANY MORE BIRTHDAYS ENJOYED IN HEALTH, STRENGTH, JOY, AND......................................PEACE.

HEY TONTO!.......HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YA!.......WARMEST WISHES FOR MANY MORE BIRTHDAYS FOR YOU ENJOYED IN HEALTH, STRENGTH, JOY, AND FREEDOM!!!..........SAY HI TO KIMOSABE TOO!........LOOKING FORWARD TO SEEIN' YOU AT DA Q!............................PEACE.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY SUDO!......BEST WISHES FOR MANY MORE ENJOYED IN HEALTH, STRENGTH, AND JOY!.......KEEP SMILIN' WITH THEM PEARLY WHITES! ...................PEACE.

PARTY ON GARTH!.............HAPPY BIRTHDAY WITH BEST WISHES FOR MANY MORE ENJOYED IN GOOD HEALTH, STRENGTH, AND JOY!..................PARTY ON DUDE!...................PEACE.

hiya chas! i pm'd ya!.........pretty hard to keep me away from a clambake in new england!!!!!..............see ya there!............................peace.

hiya nandon! only problem with promoting www.thewayinternational.org is that would take people to their site, which is full of the same barf-o-rama type "christian worship" music that is being ridiculed so broadly by everyone outside twi who is brave enough to watch it! in reading the various links to blogs and other sites that socks posted on the other thread, what was interesting to me, is that there was not one single post that complimented twi for its awesome display of "godly talent"........there was not one single post on any of those blogs where any poster expressed anything but utter amazement at how bad the music and dancing were, nor were there any comments extolling the "greatness of the accuracy" of the lyrics either!!!..........twi's detachment from reality, and even "christianity" is what is so painfully obvious to any "normal person" who watches any of their "productions", or anyone who listens to their teachings! the fact that rozilla is now calling herself "chairman of the board" instead of "president" of twi, also indicates that in her bizarro world of lies, denials, and cover-ups, she actually may think she's changed twi from the self-serving, abusive cult it's always been, into some kind of "legitimate christian ministry" of some sort...........talk about "putting lipstick on a pig"!!!!.........LOL! the thing that surprises me even more than the total ridicule and rejection of twi's public persona on this most recent internet "attack" on them, is that twi innies still think their crap doesn't smell or look like what it is!!!!.........they actually think that stuff is "good".........they applaud it!.........they give money to support it, and its "productions"!!!.........they actually think that the overwhelmingly "negative" reaction to their "productions" is proof of how "devilish" the internet is.........won't surprise me if they take their site down altogether.........how much time and money have they wasted making sure youtube took it down????? funny how public exposure to and of twi's idiocies just makes them run like cockroaches when you turn on a light!.........disturbs their psychoemotional numbness i guess........the truth only hurts those who stand in opposition to it...............congrats rozilla on your new position as "chairman of the bored"!..........still having identity problems i see!!!!..........but no problems spending all that money you've stashed away through the last 30 years, eh?..............lipstick on a seared conscience!.............................peace.

nato!........ROTFLMAO!!!........finally, the recognition from the real world that rozilla and twi so crave............and, so richly deserve!,,,,,,,,,,still LMAO!..............anyone got a unicorn???................................peace.

my experience with ALL OF THE OFFSHOOTS OF TWI AND THEIR "LEADERS" has been that THEY ALL try to minimalize vic's "mistakes" by saying something along the lines of "that was over 20 years ago, and does not change what god is or what the truth of god's word is",.................. or, "i'm sorry you were hurt or abused by vic, or craig, or rosalie, or twi. but don't you think it's time to move on with your life?"............ or, "after all these years why are you still so angry and bitter about the sins of one man or other men? haven't you heard of 'forgiveness'?"................. or, "our 'ministry' has nothing to do with twi. besides, vic's dead."................. or, "yes, vic and twi made a lot of mistakes, but i'll always be thankful for the 'truth of god's word" that i learned while i was there."................. or, "don't you believe the bible is still the word of god?".................... or, "so what are you doing for god these days?" or, "are you still a christian? do you still believe in god?" or, "our ministry researches the bible based on all the great biblical keys we learned from twi, but we disagree with lots of twi doctrines that our research has proven to be wrong." or, "we think our classes, are more accurate than pfal, and we don't do the same things vic or twi did that hurt or used god's people." or, "i don't have to listen to your lies."! or, "i'm sorry you feel that way. call me when you want to believe god again." and yada, yada, yada,and blah, blah, blah............denial of the facts.......refusal to engage in honest, self-examination,....... determined to continue "serving god" in a state of perpetual adolescence without seeing the glaring need to objectively identify the realities of their consciousness of self or god,...........fear of procuring for themselves a legitimate, accredited, useful, real education, or real job in the real world............and, persistent perpetuation of the lies, falsehoods, and superficial, phoney "intellectualism" of their twi-rooted religious systems that keep them in their houses, cars, and "jobs" as "christian leaders"!..................haven't you had enough already mark???.....................................peace.

hiya penworks and tzaia! thank you each and both for posting good information, and making good points well-taken. your input and opinions are certainly appreciated by me, and i always enjoy reading the posts you ladies contribute here at the greasespot!...........you gals rock 'n' rule!...........and you can sure boogie-woogie too!...........lol!.......................peace.

thank you mark! for your courteous and honest replies to my questions and to the posts of our fellow greasespotters on this thread.......it is most encouraging to know that civil discourse and respectful disagreement can be engaged in and enjoyed here at the greasespot, a website that is dear to each of us, and which remains so important in its mission of exposing twi and its offshoots to those who need or want to know "the other side of the story". it is a pleasure to dialogue with you and agree to disagree in a mutual respectful and courteous discussion of issues and events of import and impact to ourselves and the greasespot community as a whole!......again, thank for your forthrightness and courteousness..................................peace.

hi again mark clarke! thanks for the info on vinny's and your current church.........i was having a little difficulty understanding what is motivating you to spend so much time and more than a little effort promoting and explaining vinny's "new ministry" for all us greasespotters posting on this thread..............so, i too, like geisha, took the time to browse your website, and i followed the link you gave on your post #92 here regarding the COGGC, and ABC.............upon doing so, i now understand much more clearly where you're coming from in all your posts here promoting vinny, anthony buzzard, atlanta bible college, etc. i'm glad that anthony, vinny, and you have all found a denomination you can all support, and whose doctrines and practices appeal to your current spiritual needs and wants........but, i really think, that, in the future, it would be a little more transparent for you to post this kind of stuff in the doctrinal forum rather than in the about the way forum..........that way, the discussion would not revolve around a twi offshoot, which is really what vinny's LHIM church is, IMO, and probably in the opinion of many other greasespotters.............but, rather, it would revolve around the doctrinal and practical differences between COGCC/ABC, and other churches, denominations, cults, etc. again, i'm just expressing my opinion here, and i'll tell you why that is my opinion........firstly, let me state why i don't think COGCC is a "mainstream" christian denomination........reason number one is that its flagship college/seminary exists to serve itself, and its member churches.........in order to become a pastor, or member of its "ministerial association", one must attend atlanta bible college, graduate, and meet all the doctrinal and social criteria stipulated at their website...........all of which is legal and "above board" here in the good ole USA, as it should be, imho............but, as i posted before on this thread, atlanta bible college has no valid accreditation from accrediting organizations or institutions that really count, outside of COGCC's own circles!.......point being, a degree from abc, won't get me a job in the real world as it exists outside of COGCC, nor would it afford me the kind of educational credentials that would enable me to be a candidate for "ordination" in any of the established, "mainstream" denominations which require a degree from a legitimately, fully accredited educational institution............which, unfortunately, abc is not.........its accreditation is from "accrediting commission international", which, as i've also posted before, is not recognized by any state governments, the federal government, nor the legally established and govermentally recognized, public, educational accrediting agencies or institutions that offer such accreditation for the benefit and protection of the general public.............abc's accreditation is as "valid" as was that of "the way college of biblical research, indiana campus", the former twi "root locale" from which it granted its associate and bachelor "degrees" in theology for corps grads........not that there's anything wrong with that............it's just that those degrees aren't really worth much in the real world outside of twi........maybe there are more transferrable credits available from abc to fully accredited institutions of higher learning, i don't know.........but, as i said, outside of COGCC's world, a degree from abc doesn't really impress non-COGCC churches or employers......but, again, if COGCC is your church of choice, then none of this stuff really matters to you. secondly, COGCC will "ordain" or recognize "ordinations" of folks who line up with the criteria they stipulate at their website you linked to in post #92.............since they refer to vinny as "pastor vince finnegan" at that website, and he lists them at his site as "outreach partners", i assume his twi ordination and the rest of his twi resume, along with his personal allegiance to the doctrinal and social requirements, as well as the required "tithes and offerings", and other fees also stipulated on that website you linked to, is what enabled him to be included in COGCC's ministerial association.........and, his sponsorship of his son sean, as his "associate pastor", will qualify sean, who is a graduate of abc, to become ordained by them also, when he meets the requirements listed there for abc grads.......... i noticed that vinny was one of the official COGCC representatives on a recent trip to malawi, africa this past june.......is that the trip you referred to in one of your earlier posts?.......just curious.......who paid for vinny's travel expenses, room and board for that trip?.....LHIM or abc?........and, btw, who monitors/oversees the monies of LHIM, besides members of LHIM? who decides salaries, and other allocations of the "tithes and offerings".LHIM brings in?........i figure you may know, and i've asked you that before on this thread, but i don't think you answered those questions........maybe you can't, or maybe you don't care?...........i don't know.............is LHIM a "member church" of COGCC? according to their constitution as posted on their website, it seems like that would be the case, but i don't know.........do you? as i said before, i'm glad you and vinny have found a church that you like.........but that doesn't make LHIM any less of a twi offshoot, imho, than stfi, cff, LMCI, michael rood ministries, and all the rest..............i still think that the very existence of LHIM is owed to twi, and the access to and influence over the many ex-wayfers vinny knew and knows in ny, and in other states here in the US, and in the foreign countries he "oversaw" and visited while he was "assistant to the president" in twi from 1977-1984, and limb coordinator of ny from 1984-1989.............the fact remains, that vic's theology and "way tree" organizational structure does not differ all that much from the new denominational home you and vinny have found.......there are some doctrinal differences, as you've pointed out, and, i'm sure there are differences in method and practice, but, after reading both vinny's and COGCC's "statement of beliefs", the similarities are much more apparent than those differences, imho. again, let me state, that i don't begrudge your or vinny's right to support and promote whatever denomination you want!........one man's church is another man's cult..........and, one man's cult is another man's "rightly divided word of truth", and stairway to heaven.........but i don't really think it's intellectually honest to try and justify vinny's church as having nothing to do with his twi roots and theological indoctrination.......nor is it honest to try to convince me that just because there are some doctrinal and methodological differences between vinny's current church, and his former church of 18 years, twi, that vinny can be freely absolved from the apologies and other repentive acts he still "owes" to a large number of people whom he mistreated in his former "ministry".......nor can you honestly say that vinny's support base of ex-wayfers was not and is not a, if not the major reason for the existence of his current church...........imho, that just ain't so! please don't take this post as some kind of "personal attack" against you, or against LHIM................that is truly not my heart nor intent........i absolutely respect your right to believe whatever you want to believe, and to promote whatever church you want to.........but, the doctrinal forum here at the greasespot is, imho, a far more appropriate forum for that kind of thing than this about the way forum..........letting vinny tell us his "same old story" here is really not a service to your fellow greasespotters........many of whom may have been despitefully used and /or abused by vinny during his 18 years of faithful service to twi..........i honestly hope you will find continued joy and peace in believing your version of christian truth..........and, i hope you will find the answers and solutions to the questions and stressors you mention in your blog entry of july, this year on your website.......i'd also appreciate it if you encourage vinny to come here and speak for himself, if he wants, rather than to have you speak for him or his offshoot.................thanks again mark, and..........................................peace.

hiya cynic! lohn came up with that nickname himself, by doing exactly what you suggested.......putting the "vis" of elvis at the end of his (john's) initials........he did this for the first time when he was the corps coordinator at emporia, and appeared as an "elvis impersonator" doing his schtick for an in-house talent show or something like that.............i thought that nickname was just so fitting, i've always called john by that nickname since........sorry if my old habit was confusing for any of you greasespotters!................ok...........back to the topic now!.........LOL!............................................peace.

deleted to avoid a double post!..........sowwy!

DWBH - don't you agree with the idea that without healthy dissent that this was the only direction TWI could go? My only experience outside TWI was with CES. Didn't CES start down the path of shutting down dissent relatively quickly? For me it was about the time it changed Dialog to Contender. I know for you it was earlier, but you had more insider info than I. hiya tzaia!........i think that rhymes, doesn't it? any group that does not facilitate "healthy dissent", imho, does so to institutionalize its philosophies and/or ideologies. the only possible outcome of this kind of psychodynamic is rabid group-think, which becomes completely self-serving, and acutely intolerant of any thinking which questions or threatens the accepted "thinking" of the group. at its inception, ces was based on "healthy dissent"! after all, the members of the "original" ces bod, were well-known former "leaders" in twi, whose dissent from twi policies, procedures, and several key twi doctrines had become a matter of public record during the 18 months or so between the times of their departures from twi and the incorporation of the initial "incarnation" of ces. jalvis was the only one who seemed insistent upon building a "ministry" for ex-wayfers to cling to in order to continue "moving the word over the world"........the other original bod members were more interested in #1, getting the truth and facts "out in the open" about what vic, the twi bot, and twi were really all about, #2, trying to provide some kind of network for twi victims to obtain comfort and help with their own "separation anxieties" about leaving twi, and #3, provide a "clearinghouse" for continued study, "research", and teaching of the bible, without any prescribed doctrine, but rather a continued dialogue between and among christians of all denominations and theologies, minus an "enforced", centralized, hierarchical structure, which expected allegiance and collected monies. in hindsight, i'd have to admit, that our original concept of what ces could be was overly idealistic!.........there were just so many visceral responses , not only to the volume of information we were presenting in our exposure of vic's "ministry", and the realities that were twi, but also to the variouis individual cases of spiritual and sexual abuse that required far more professional and pastoral help than ces was ever able to provide! as time marched on, the 4 ces bod members besides jalvis, quickly began to realize that we were not sufficiently prepared, personally or professionally to provide what was needed for our concept of ces to become actualized, nor were we sufficiently educated and trained to provide legitimate, genuine christian ministry to the rapidly growing number of twi refugees streaming out of twi's clutches.........jalvis disagreed strongly with us on this, and our bi-weekly conference calls became more like updates on what jalvis was doing and wanted ces to do, than they were brainstorming ways to actualize what we thought ces was supposed to be..........the momentus "issue" became a heated "bone of contention" beween the 4 of us and jalvis, as did his insistence upon expanding the bod to include schoenheit and the graeser's.........so, within just a few months of incorporating ces, the other 4 original members of the ces bod resigned, and/or "drifted away" from any involvement with what was becoming jalvis' "ministry", and charted our own courses to the future. so, there really wasn't a "path of shutting down dissent" in ces at that time, imho........rather, it was more of a "non-hostile takeover" of ces by jalvis and his new bod buddies......the rest of us "original" bod members decided to "let it go", and two of us went back to school, and the other two worked on their careers and taking care of their families........none of us wanted anything to do with momentus, or the direction ces was heading under the "vision and direction" of jalvis and the new bod members.......and none us did take part in ces from late fall 1988 forward.........and none of us has to this day.........the evolution of ces into the twi offshoot it is today is totally the responsibility of jalvis, schoenheit and the graeser's............i thank god i was not and am not a part of that cult.........one cult in my lifetime is enough for me!...........hope that answers your question tzaia...........................................peace.

HAPPY 58TH BIRTHDAY SOCKS, YOU OLE GUITAR PICKER YOU! as a special surprise for you on your birthday, i was gonna have some extra-stale, authentic, crescent theater popcorn shipped to you!.............but, when i called, the stalest they had was from 1989, and i was looking for the 1974 vintage!..........plus, they didn't have any of the 1974 fake, real butter left either.........said they used that up in '79, waxing the lobby floor! oh well........i still send my fondest wishes to you for a great day with your wonderful family and friends, and for many more birthdays enjoyed in health strength and joy!........keep pickin' and grinni' bro!.........love to you and j.............and...................peace.

DWBH, You're right, we all have the right to interpret the facts as we see fit. My response to your opinions had nothing to do with whether or not you agree with his current theology. All I was saying is that your opinion of Vince seems to be based on things that happened in the past, and it colors your view of what he's trying to do now. But that is, as you say, your right. My original point was that when he said nothing about his involvement with TWI, John Juedes implied that he was "hiding something," but when he writes of the positions and responsibilities he had, you imply that he is boasting or not being humble. I guess you can't please everyone. Anyway, while you may see many similarities between Vince's church and the other splinter groups, the fact is that most of the other splinter groups see him as being radically different, and consider him to have "foresaken the truth" because of his changes in doctrine. That's all I'm saying. hi again mark! thanks for your courteous reply..........always nice to enjoy civil dialogue here at the greasespot........your time and thoughtfulness in providing input to this thread is appreciated. your point about my "opinion of vince" seeming to be based on things that happened in the past, is partly true.......i have not had any personal contact with vinny since 1986, when i resigned from my "job" in twi........while i received literally hundreds of phone calls from twi "leadership" after i resigned, and literally thousands more once we had safely moved from ohio to our own private residence in the northeastern US..........vince was not one of those calls........jalvis, after having been fired from twi in april, 1987, tried several different times to talk with vinny about what was going on in and with twi at that time, but vinny was rather standoff-ish, to put it mildly........jalvis encouraged vinny to talk with me, (since vinny wanted nothing to do with jalvis), but as far as vinny was concerned, i was as "possessed and bitter" about "everything" as vinny presumed jalvis to be, based primarily on what vinny's leader, geer, was communicating to his hapless followers in the USA........the "limb leadership" of which geer had stated during the "clergy meeting" at new knoxville in november of 1986, "at least 50%" were "possessed by or under the direct influence of devil spirits".........LOL!.......the "official" twi stance, as prescribed by geer, was that all those who had signed that "infamous" 37-page letter written to the then twi bot, and then distributed to a wider group of twi followers jalvis had on his "mailing list", were to "please be so good as to cease communicating" with twi "leadership", because we were so "copped out" that even just reading that letter would cause the readers to become "possessed" themselves!.........again, LOL!..........so, in faithful allegiance to the new twi mog, vinny never contacted me then or since........i'm assuming he did this to keep himself "spiritually clean", as well as financially solvent. as far as my "view of what he's trying to do now ", i must honestly say, that it is not based on what vinny did or didn't do 20 years ago, but what he's doing today..........i've read his website, examined some of his "current teachings", and i've followed the cyber-trail of the churches, "seminaries", and "accreditation credentials" of the same.........like atlanta bible college, the "seminary" you mentioned, where vinny's associate pastor, and son, sean, graduated from, and is on the faculty!......it's "accreditation" is as meaningful and valid as that of pike's peak "seminary" from which vic got his "doctorate".........here's a link you may want to check out about "accrediting commission international".........http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accrediting_Commission_International................seems vinny is following the same patterns his father-in-the-word taught him so well , and for which vinny "will always remain thankful"!.............as i stated in a previous post, vinny's "credentials" as a legitimate "christian leader" or pastor, are as phoney as vic's, and rely totally upon his followers' acceptance of his twi "ordination" and "resume".........which is understandable when you remember that vinny's "new ministry" is supported by a "membership" comprised predominantly of ex-wayfers.............like i said.......no skin off my nose............"just for the sake of accuracy". "Anyway, while you may see many similarities between Vince's church and the other splinter groups, the fact is that most of the other splinter groups see him as being radically different, and consider him to have "foresaken the truth" because of his changes in doctrine. That's all I'm saying." the "fact" that most of the other splinter groups see him as "radically different", imho, just demonstrates that the blinder are judging the blind. why should i care what the cults competing with each other for their share of ex-wayfers think about each other? regardless of the shameless, misguided egos of twi offshoot "leaders", they are all willfully stuck in their own versions of vic's "ministry".......each trying to prove to their ex-twi base, that they're "closer to the original", or more "biblically accurate" than the other!.......while publicly proclaiming their superior doctrinal purity or structural distinctions from twi, in order to procure for themselves the necessary financial support or "partnering" which will insulate them from having to go out and get a "real job", or a "real education" in the "real world"! who supervises these "leaders"? who holds them accountable for their teachings, practices, "christian counseling", and their "ministering"?........who certifies and/or accredits their leadership?.....or their "classes"?...... or their myriad "books and publications"?.......or their "leadership training programs"?......or their "seminaries"?.........oh.......i forgot!.........god does!........or, they can all be lined up and checked out according to "the greatness of the accuracy of god's word, rightly divided"!.......sic!............what "spritual" or structural checks and balances have they incorporated into their "ministries" to prevent them from repeating the same horribly destructive "mistakes" vic "stumbled" into?........who objectively stands guard against the blindness of their intellectual pride, and the accuracy of their "biblical research", or textual criticism?.......what, besides their former positions in twi, or their heroic accomplishments as way corps grads, qualifies them to be genuine, legitimate "christian leaders"? who ordained them as "apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers"?...............and, who does their books, financially?......who determines their salaries?.......who directs the allocations of their funds?...........who validates their "expenses"?........................WHO'S MINDING THE STORE??? those are the questions i ask in the process of formulating my thoughts and opinions regarding vinny's twi offshoot, and all the rest of the various twi offshoots/splinter groups. the honest answers to those questions are what "colors my view" of what vinny's "doing now", or cff, stfi, liberating ministries for christ international, word promotions, word centered productions, s.o.w.e.r.s., akribos theological seminary, michael rood ministries, etc., etc., etc., ad nauseum!.........imho, these self-styled, "christian ministries" are all the illegitimate children of twi's founder!........despite the volumes of verbiage, publications, bible classes, "research" and fellowships they use to distance themselves from that mean-spirited, alcoholic, sociopathic, serial sexual predator and pervert who "fathered them in god's word", the false humility, hatred and intolerance of vic's "ministry" lives on in them and through them!...............that's all i'm saying........................................peace.