DontWorryBeHappy

LOL!.........nope......no acorn for me.........i am a registered independent......as i have been since 1976.............i try to ferret through the gross propaganda from all sides..........difficult to do most times!..........but, i have noticed your proclivity for right-wingers like prager, o'reilly, etc.,.........and, unfortunately, i have witnessed you having posts deleted which were, at least in the mind of the moderators here, filled with hate speech and rhetoric inspirational to what some might consider far right-wing hate groups..........not legitimate libertarians.......but hate groups............that's why i was wondering if your next "advance" with some twi offshoot or the klan was coming up soon........just curious "bro"!............you have a nice weekend...........say hi to vic

i'm quite relaxed thank you!.......dodd, geithner, have as much 'splainin' to do as paulson, bush, cheney, phil gramm, and boehner, et al........the entire mess is a testimony to the abject inequality of the financial "matrix" set up by all the "players of the last 20 years, imo...........as usual, the average working person winds up holding the bag.......which is so totally empty...........who do you think wasn't paid off by aiu?.........where'd you say this weekend's klan advance is?.........LHIM?

when and where is your next klan meeting oldies???.......just wondering..........peace.

rosie-the-liar particpated wholeheartedly with vic, and who knows whom-else in the sexcapades game which was at the soft underbelly of vic's inner sanctum......and that was well before 1995!!!.......she's a liar.......she knows it......donna knows it.......the doofus from okie knows it.........what they all seem to not take seriously at all, is that, most importantly, GOD KNOWS IT!!.......it will eventually come out in the proverbial wash.........in the meantime.......they live their fantasy lives of "godliness" like their first century counterparts......the scribes, pharicees, and romans!.......whited sepulchres full of death and lies!.........what a legacy!.........peace.

krys........hi!..... i don't know what they keep now, how many versions and how many copies of versions of their financial "books"........or where they bury the real facts and truth of their duplicitous, fraudulent, financial acrobatics.......the real facts behind the "income" they stole, laundered and cleaned up during the years when their lack of significance in terms of numbers and members allowed them to cruise below the government's various radar screens....... but, i do know, that early after i left the swamp of new knoxville in december, 1986......i "hosted" a team of IRS and US justice department investigators for 5 days at my newly rented house.......i was able to provide them with hard copies of the three....that's right!..count ,em THREE sets of books which rearranged and juggled the income and expenses of the ROA 1986, for bookstore sales and expenses, food and housing income and expenses, "abundant sharing" totals, and that type of stuff........so, twi's 501©3 tax exempt status was revoked for several years.......but that was it.....the fact that during the years 1982-1984, we operated the entire US Trunk at a rate of only 8% of the net income we brought in from abs and the sales of bookstore items and conferences, advances, and "events", was simply a testimony to "excellent" business practices........hear me........out of the almost 50 million dollars PER YEAR of income during those years, it only took 8% of that to pay all the bills for all the full-time, part-time staff in the limbs, and at HQ for the trunk-related departments!!...........that's a net profit of over 40 million bucks a year for those years.......... they got their 501©3 back after five years..........2 sets of checkbooks?????..........at least!.......the real facts?.......who knows???.......one thing i do know, is that rosie, donna, the doofus from okie, coward allen, et al, are living off the profits made decades ago by the foolish faithful who gave their all for "his highest".........whatever's left is what they're stll sucking off of today...........hope they're enjoying sleepless nights with guilt-ridden dreams.......but knowing the kind of creeps they are..............i doubt it......................peace.

hi greasespotters! firstly, i want to apologize for having allowed myself to get "sucked in" to this thread, started by om, with the obnoxious (imho) title and subtitle which baited me into another almost worthless discussion on the merits, or lack thereof, of another run-of-the-mill twi offshoot, led by another ex-twi "clergyman" who has done little, if anything, to improve his credentials as a "legitimate" christian clergyman. vinny has simply, again, imho, continued his "personal ministry" using all his twi monetary and "spiritual" connections, and all the organizational structure education he garnered in twi, to continue to make a good "living", as ham pointed out, in the fringe, right-wing, so-called "christian" educational/outreach movement akin to the basics of twi-like organizational/financial structures......unaccredited by any recognized accreditting agencies of christian or academic "mainstream" accreditdation institutions, and based on the false humility of self-aggrandizing, self-serving, "biographical" data which still acknowledges wierwillian theology and "ministry" as being somehow worthy of respect, recognition, or some kind of worthiness of "christian" respect and accomplishment. personally, i think this kind of thread belongs in the doctrinal forum, or even more appropriately, in the soap opera forum...........mark clarke has his own website as does vinny......why do greasespotters like om feel it necessary to promote their interests in such phoney "religious leaders" by calling attention to them in a forum that is designed to expose the old and current lies, extortions, and abuses of twi and its various offshoots? is it really in the interest of "first ammendment" freedoms, or their sophomoric dedication to the "greatness" of the freedoms and liberties they scream so loudly about, that this nation espouses?..........is that the purpose of this website? what is the purpose of a thread like this om, or mark clarke?.........why do you feel it necessary to burden the greasespot with yet another unabashed promo for a former twi "bigshot" who, in your opinion, somehow merits acceptance, approval, or recognition for having "moved on" in a direction that you think is meritorious?..........if you think vinny's church is so "right-on", then just join, or tell us how great you think he is in the doctrinal forum.........this is it for me regarding this discussion.............i have long ago abandoned any notion that folks like vinny, jalvis, clapp, seed, geer, et al, will ever really come clean, or apologize willingly to the hundreds they despitefully used and abused in order to get out of twi and maintain a lifestyle similar to their idol, der victoid...........their rhetoric, and the excuses made for them by the likes of om, mark clarke and others here, are painfully and woefully long overplayed, and disproven, imho. i have made the mistake of voicing personal issues with folks like vinny here.......i have tried to be open and honest with my feelings about them...........my mistake.............perhaps inappropriate for a forum like this.........but, imho, far less inappropriate than the shameless promotion of "ministries" like vinny's by folks like om, mark clarke and some others, who disguise their personal religious choices under the cloak of "free speech" that they assume is a right granted to them by this website......... again........if you like vinny and his church..........with promoters like his son sean, a graduate of yet another unaccreditted "bible college" like his father.....or victor paul gluckin, another graduate of the same unaccreditted "christian bible college"..........and defenders of the us constitution like om and others here.......why not post in the doctrinal or soap opera forums????..............as for me...........i'm done with this baiting thread.......and the baiters.......sorry i wasted my time and your's!.........................peace.

tzaia..............i have always found your posts here at the spot to be well tempered intellectually, and even-handed "politically" in the sense of the pseudo-religious, ideological retorts of the more "conservative" christian" approach utilized by twi/twi-offshoot proponents of right-wing, fundamentalist, self-centered "new age" theologies. your first paragraph in your last post very accurately describes my personal thought process in the point i was trying to make! religious rhetoric is cheap "rockstar status". and, as a cult "hero", vinnie remains unchallenged, and unrepentant in the current arrangement of his religious, psychosocial corporate structure whose religious beliefs line-up almost lockstep with the views of an unrepentant, religious "leader" whose former "church" provided the numerical membership base and the financial wherewithall to continue a "ministry" whose origens will forever be embedded in the remnants of what vinnie's faithfulness to vic's perversions of christianity, as well as vic's personal perversions of what defines "christian leadership"were! no! you are not wrong tzaia!............you expressed my feelings quite accurately, regarding my reliance upon a voluntary, personal, apology from vinnie for a number of moral, ethical, and "religious" improprieties he committed against me and many others albeit over 20 years ago, which apologies/repentance would go a long way toward convincing me that vinnie has indeed found a less "cosmetically" repentant form of christianity than the one i knew him in the context of......... mark clarke.........i have spent hours reading your website.........i have spent hours reading vinnie's website......i have spent hours thinking about your new-found truth of the kingdom-ready theology.......i have spent hours at the atlanta bible college website.....it remains unaccredited......your cog, abrahamic faith-based dogma remains at the fringes of right-wing christian dogma..........reading your apologeia-like posts defending and/or promoting your faith is, for me, like listening to karl rove defend the illegalities, overreachings, and outright propaganda lies of the last 8 years of the bush administration's conduct of the foreign policy of the united states!...........why can't you get vinnie to come out and speak for himself here????.........are you his "official" spokesman and apologist here at the greasespot??........is he so far above us spiritually to come promote his own crap here himself?.........i don't care what you or vince believe!.........i expect personal justice.......christian responsibility for genuine repentance.........honest answers to honest questions, regardless of how "old" they may be!............your pseudo-lectures on "how long it's been", or how "non-current" the facts are don't move me.............why do you think you have the right or responsinility to promote vinnie's and your church here at the greasespot?..........why should'nt vinnie do his own "dirtywork"??.......... i think your shameless promotion of vinnie's church and beliefs is somewhat inappropriate to the stated mission of this website........but, that's just my opinion.........vinnie has his website.......you have your's......why impose your overbearing theology on us greasespotters so consistently?...........just to take advantage of the free speech offered here which vinnie's site does not offer?.........i'm personally sick and tired of your use of the greasespot to promote your own church in the name of vinnie, who doesn't even have the guts or common decency to come speak here for himself!..............moderators...........why isn't this kind of junk put into the doctrinal forum where it belongs?????........or, at least, run it as an advertisement like the rest of the religious nuts whose ads populate the edges of these pages????.............personally.........i'm done with discussing vinnie's abrahamic roots church........and mark clarke's apologetics driven advertisements for the same!.....they both have their own sites!.......go there to continue their bs!........just my opinions!............peace!

dmiller, socks, mstar1, and waysider......for various reasons, it's been a long while since i've had the joy of perusing my favorite thread here at the spot.......this one......i just listened to this last page, and, all i wanna say is.........i really love youse guys, and the music you post!......thanks!......and, ........i'll be back!.....peace.

hi jeff!........i appreciate your gracious grant of credence to what i have posted here at greasespot during the past couple of years.........i have always appreciated your forthrightness, as well as your posts regarding your horrid personal, firsthand experiences with whatever 14th corps maniac who "leads" the offshoot that terrorized and viciously disrupted your personal life........an unfortunately "typical" example of religious hypocrisy and narcissistic hedonism, shamelessly perpetuated in the name of god and "rightly-dividing god's perfect, matchless word"! if i chose to, i could list and delineate numerous specific acts of many former twi "leaders" who now run lucrative "churches" of their own, who, during their "reigns" as twi "bigshots", committed numerous illicit and immoral acts of mental terrorism and literal physical abuse of folks who were haplessly seeking"spiritual growth" during their time of twi involvement. however, since the span of time is now some 20-30 years after the fact, and, my contact with the numerous victims is no longer current, there is, imho, no real benefit to either party of doing so.....unless the parties themselves agree to engage in a therapeutic discussion of said events for mutual, beneficial, resolution of long-standing and profound psychosocial issues. vinnie himself, i would think, should be quite poignantly aware of what he's done to and with whom......however, to be honest,........the firsthand knowledge of his acts that i have is no more current than 1989......thats 20 years ago!.....wow!.....hard to believe!..........that's one of the reasons i say that when and if vinnie ever contacts me to personally "own up" to the vicious horrors and collusions he participated in against me personally back then with the likes of geer, et al, i'll be sure to let all know here at greaespot that he's finally apologized to those to whom his personal apologies are 20+ years "overdue"!!........as i've said before, "don't hold your breath! i know for a fact, that today, as i type this, there are some "offshoots" of vinnie's offshoot that are run by people whom he, vinnie, engaged in extra-marital sex with........i doubt either vinnie, or his partners will ever "fess-up" to this, nor do i expect that they should do so in a public forum.........however, privately, such admissions of what i know to be fact, would go a long way to resolving the "issues" i have with vinnie and his "new" church. the same is true for a number of vic/pfal "torchbearers" running around espousing and promoting their "ministries" just like ted haggard did before he got "busted"!.........only difference being, they haven't been "busted.............yet. my "goal" is not to publicly expose or bust these folks.........i just seek their personal, private admission to the facts, along with a public act of "contrition" in which they acknowledge their personal acceptance of the fact that vic was a filthy, lying, sexual pervert, predator and alcoholic, as well as a bible liar and spritual charlatan........not just some smarmy, rote expression of their everlasting thankfulness for the part of his "ministry" that "kept them alive" past 30 years of age, to develope their own personal brand of religion to keep their families fed, and their "congregations" sending in the money! i have discussed vinnie's "new" church here at greasespot with mark clarke before.........i do not wish to re-engage in a discussion of cog, "abrahamic faith", "kingdom ready" theology with him again.......he has a right to his religious beliefs, as do all amercian citizens..........but, his promotion of vinnie's church as a somehow "different", or "unique", or "doctrinally" more "mature" offshoot than cff, stfi, or the rest, holds absolutely no water with me.........one man's cult is another man's orthodoxy.......nor do i desire to engage in mudslinging 20 years after the fact!...........however........i know what i know, and folks like vinnie, geer, jalvis, schoenheit, seed, clapp, guigou, etc., etc., etc., know what i know too.............it'll all come out in the wash.........it always does.........i know also, that my conscience is clean and clear......i have paid a very high price for determining to remain honest and "unbought"..........the others i've mentioned, and many more unmentioned, have received alot of bucks for their denial, unrepentant silence, and decisions to sell themselves to whatever brand of so-called "christian" religion that pays their personal bills! i'm not setting myself up as a self-righteous martyr, nor do i even assume that the facts i may share have any importance or value to very many people.........however, i live with myself knowing that i'm no liar, pimp or whore when it comes to what i experienced in twi..........sometimes i do feel like hitchcock's "the man who knew too much", .......but, really.......not many care.........it's just another story in "the naked city" of religion and religious cults!................peace.

i don't get to ebay ever...........really wary of it, though i know several folks who buy and sell there actively.........is it a large community of people?.............who would "the jerk" be to whom that poster referred to?.......anyone we might know????..................peace.

imo, martindale was and is an unrepentant, self-righteous, hopelessly self-deluded, serial sexual predator, immature, premature ejaculator, lost in an identity assigned him and accepted by him, from a horribly twisted, mean-spirited alcoholic narcissist, and perverted, serial sexual predator who suffered from paranoid delusions and serious sexual inadequacy issues.........by lying and with good legal representation, he avoided imprisonment, and lives comfortably off of the illicit income of a fringe, right-wing religious cult which owes its continuing interest-bearing existence to his legally arranged silence regarding the facts of its current operations and the history of its ill-gotten financial gains..........but........that's just my opinion!.....................peace.

vic was a hapless, narcissistic, mean-spirited alcoholic, sociopathic, serial sexual predator suffering from hallucinations, and paranoid delusions of grandeur,.....imho...........no redeeming social or intellectual value.

the sad fact is, that, outside of several doctrines, and different word-ology, vinnie has'nt, imho, changed anything.......his financial base has always been and remains today, a core of stalwart ex-twi followers who remain entrenched in vinnie's style of "ministry"......he has parlayed to the max all his twi training and ties to "money-launder" his church into an acceptable "kingdom-ready" version of vic's way of doing things, minus the personal perversions vinnie once accepted as truth...........it's a free country, and vinnie's not doing anything illegal as far as i know.......but, as far as "self-improvement" goes, all he's done, imho, is to effectively remove himself from the filthy legacy of the average twi offshoot, and hitch his star to a different denonimination associated with atlanta bible college, and maximize his former twi contacts to gain attention as some kind of church building "hero" within a segment of christianity that accepts his denial or rejection of his theological roots in exchange for financial and numerical increase..........like i said.......free country. vinnie must live as a prisoner of his own conscience.........how he does it, i do not know.........but, i'm sure the "foregiveness of god" is a big personal agenda item of which vinnie, without apologizing to the hundreds of genuine christians he used and abused in the past, makes full theological and practical use...........i'll accept his "conversion" as real when i get a phone call from him with some kind of attempt on his part for settlement of his immoral and unjust past in regards to his personal dealings with me, and others i know whom he personally mistreated.......his alliance with geer in his early years of ex-twi living are of particular concern to me..........as i said, it's a free country........vinnie's true conscience will be his guide.......i'll let you know when his conscience moves him to clear itself with his past dealings with me................don't hold your breath!...............peace.

imho, vic was most likely a victim, as a young child, of some kind of parental, physical abuse. however, as a grown man, fully capable of, and responsible for his own decisions and actions, he became a narcissistic, mean-spirited alcoholic, sociopathic, serial sexual predator, who used his personalized fantasies of a war-mongering, punishing old testament "god", transformed into an all-loving, all-forgiving christ-like figure, to further his personal perversions into a "god-breathed" religion of self-serving idolatry along with self-aggrandizing accumulation of material "abundance" at the expense of vulnerable, "spiritual searchers", whom he freely and wrecklessly used without genuine regard for THEIR psychosocial needs and backgrounds. he may have been victimized as a child, but he chose the path of "victimizer-in-chief" of the religion he "created" to serve himself and his own personal demons of twisted, moral and sexual perversion. fortunately for him, he died before he got "busted".......but the facts and truths of his micro-kingdom live on for those who seek to uncover the facts of his miserable con-game and life of lies, as well as for those who seek to build their lives upon the intellectual/philosophical/"spiritual" house of cards he provided for those whose personal prejudices and moral indifferences are validated by the garbage vic espoused.........just my opinions.................peace.

hi greasespotters! now I see...........hi!.........long time since we've crossed posts, eh?..............."Does this mean Rhoda and Donna were complicit in assisting vpee with the plagerism, were they both in on it? I don't know if its ever been discussed here, but how much did either of them know what was really going on behind the scenes, wasn't Rhoda married to uncle Harry? Were others aware of the plagerism or did they just think vpee was continueing the work? " the simple answer to your first question is "yes"!..........rhoda becker, (who, btw, as skyrider points out above, was married to vic's brother reuben, not harry), was, imho, perhaps less aware of the abject plagiarism vic employed in the "writing" of vic's books than was donna r..........donna also had "research skills" in that she was knowledgeable of how to utilize the various greek concordant and lexical aids available to students of the bible, in addition to her acutely honed secretarial skills. she was well aware of the numerous sections from authors like bullinger, kenyon, stiles, leonard, etc., which were used almost verbatim by der victoid in the earliest publications of his "written works". anyone who was around during the summer school sessions at new knoxville during the summers of 1970, 71, 72, and 1973, and who took the "how to enjoy the bible" class, run by vic, cummins, and donna r., was definitely aware of the many occurrences in the foundational class itself, as well as in the "newly" released pfal book, (the orange one), and the new "edition" of RTHST which was published in the first days of the '70,s!...........bullinger's book, "how to enjoy the bible" was the main "text" of those summer school classes of the same name. the first time i read "how to enjoy the bible", in 1971, i was "shocked" at how much of the first six sessions of pfal were contained in virtually the same order, in bullinger's book!..........then, when i was actually in-rez corps, beginninig in the summer of 1973, vic granted me access to his "personal research library", hidden behind a false mantle by the fireplace in the office in his house..........here were kept vic's personal copies of numerous, if not all of, bullinger's works on the bible, stiles' book on the gift of holy spirit, the sylabus and other materials provided by b.g.leonard for his gifts of the spirit class which vic took first in 1953, books by charles welch such as "the just and the justifier", which vic used as his primary "text" for "his" teachings on the book of romans to the in-rez corps, along with bullinger's book, "the church epistles". welch,, considered by some to be bullinger's "greatest disciple", carried on his own work, authoring numerous "bullinger-like" works on the bible, as well as a number of volumes of his "research journal", "the berean expositor", similar in design and scope to bullinger's british trinitarian bible society journal publication, "of things to come". vic had quite a collection of both "of things to come" and "the berean exp[ositor" in his "personal library", which provided many "unknown" sources for lots of vic's "writings", and lots of biblical "research" which vic conveniently claimed as his own as he was "putting it all together so it fit with 'the word'". as a matter of fact, when teaching the various epistles and the book of acts to the in-rez corps, vic lifted his "literary structure" of each book of the bible he taught to the corps directly from bullinger's "church epistles" and welch's structures as laid out in his books (e.g. "the just and the justifier")............welch made several trips to the USA during the late 1950's and early 1960's..........a fellow named oscar ---------, hosted welch on several of these US intineraries. grace bliss chauffeured vic as he followed welch on a couple of these itineraries through the midwest..........oscar was the founder and manager of a little bookstore in warsaw indiana called "truth for today". from his little "warehouse" in warsaw, oscar was the one who sold twi it's copies of "how to enjoy the bible", "the companion bible", and numerous other works written by bullinger and welch, which twi resold (with a healthy mark-up added) through its bookstore. i visited "truth for today" in warsaw, indiana 4 times during ther mid and late 1970's, and spoke with oscar at length several times.i bought every book (almost) that truth for today had in its inventory, by bullinger and welch, along with some backcopies of the berean expositor............it was here that i first saw and bought bullinger's "the giver and his gifts", the other half of vic's RTHST, which, when combined with stiles' book, provides almost the entire "original text" of vic's "holy spirit book"!!...........when you lay out these two books alongside vic's RTHST, you see the incredible extent to which vic indeed plagiarized stiles and bullinger verbatim, especially in the earlier "editions" of RTHST!..........in doing so, you will "relive" rhoda's experience in that van wert hotel room when she typed up vic's first RTHST "manuscript"............later, with donna r.'s added editing and research expertise, the succeeding editions of RHTST removed as much of bullinger's and stiles' styled verbiage as necessary in order to make vic's "work" appear more "original" than just plain copied!........the final edition i had was the seventh edition, a spayshull leatherbound edition of RTHST produced for sale during living victoriously, in 1982, the 40th anniversary year during which vic retired and passed off twi to the doofus from okie!........i gave all my "research books", and every book i bought from truth for today to a little bible study group in massachusetts, in 1987...........my twi books and paraphenalia were taken to the landfill in douglas, ma that same year..........and some were "donated" to twi innies in massachusetts at that time. so, imho, anyone who was aware of the materials i mentioned above, and who had read them, had to be painfully aware, as i was, that vic liberally plagiarized many christian authors and writers.........but, it was a subject never openly discussed at that time. why???..........because, at that time, those of us with access to those sources believed unabashedly and unswervingly, that vic was indeed, the mog..........and that whatever the "ethical dilemmas" surrounding vic's biblical research methodology and "writing" style, they existed "by revelation from god" and were less important to know about than having "the greatness of god's rightly-divided word as it had not been known since the first century" available to us so "freely"!!...............sic! vic was "mentally lazy"............he was quite good at physical farmwork and finding plenty of menial "busy-work" for his massive in-rez free labor force.........but, for the centerpiece of his "ministry", "biblical research", he sorely lacked, imho, the intellectual capacity and discipline necessary to produce anything of significance or importance to legitimately vetted biblical scholarship. that's why, imo, he was so comfortable with the blatant plagiarism which was such an integral component of his "biblical research" and his "written works". he did not possess the intellectual or writing ability necessary to produce any writings which expressed the "depth and accuracy" of the work folks like bullinger or welch produced. he was a homiletics major, and used transcriptions of taped teachings to try to say in his own way, what genuine scholars like bullinger, welch, e.stanley jones, et al said in their's! as his following grew, and people with the requisite intellect, education, and writing ability came on board, more effort was made at "cleaning up" the sloppiness and shoddiness of vic's research and "writing" as it appeared in twi materials. hence, the various edits and re-printing of the various works bearing his name and his stamp of approval, which some here refer to as his "later written works" as they appear in their final forms before his death. i hope this answers your questions now I see..............if not, just ask some more!...........and, mark clarke.............sorry about missing your earlier quesations about the pedangta text and lamsa's aramaic work..........i will submit another post here to try to answer your questions..............although, i must say, that our fellow greasespotter, Penworks, who worked under bernita jess at hq for years, will probably have a lot more information regarding the aramaic arm of twi's research department and its operations than i do...........maybe you might want to pm her (penworks) if my attempts at answering your questions is not sufficient............i gotta go do some errands and stuff, so i'll get back to you a little later............sorry for missing your questions, and the delay in replying to them...................................peace.

hi again greasespotters! Mike........it was not my intent to "end" this thread............perhaps rumrunner and twinky were just typing with tongue in cheek?.........either way, you're more than welcome if indeed, this thread comes to a graceful conclusion!..........i appreciate all the information, personal and otherwise, which you have shared with us regarding your currently held, stedfast beliefs in vic's "revelations". like i said, i think i understand how much time, effort, and soul-energy you've put into your quest and in explaining some of it to us. i'm glad we can agree to disagree, and yet continue to discuss and express our views in a friendly, non-hostile exchange of posts. i am glad your beliefs bring you joy, peace and strength............and i sincerely bid you peace..............btw, please reply, so if the thread is locked, your name will be at its end........i really don't think any of your fellow greasespotters nor any of the mods really would mind that! edited to remove double post.

hi greasespotters! typically, this thread has followed a long and winding path in the discussions engendered by Jim's original snowstorm question, and the poll........which, btw, has so far amassed a grand total of 40 votes despite the number of views of this thread now beyond 7000! for me, the core of the discussion on this thread revolves around a question perhaps more Shakespearian in form than in importance.................that is..............concerning the teachings and "written works" of der victoid, are they GODBREATHED OR NOT GODBREATHED???.......that is the question which has driven the discussions on this thread, especially those directed at or in response to posts by our fellow poster Mike........and, imho, mike has been quite direct in his responses, providing a good deal of information regarding the long, arduous, detailed process he undertook in order to arrive at the answer to that question which ultimately soothed his desire for and completed his personal quest for a "single, or sole, only rule for faith and practice" which he can choose to live his life by. many greasespotters have had lengthy discussions with Mike along these same lines, myself included. in his post #324 on page 17 of this thread, Mike replied to an earlier post of mine on page 16 of this thread. in my post, i described in detail, my firsthand participation and involvement in numerous "research team meetings" which produced several of vic's so-called "written works"........as i noted in that post, all such meetings were recorded, and Mike even alludes to having heard such tapes at some point in time. Mike responded to this post by inserting his editorial comments in red at various points in my original post...........and, i would like to point out here, that not only did Mike not refute or deny any point i made about the actual "biblical research" PROCESS vic employed, he actually corrobborated the process i described!...........thus, the only difference in our perception of the process is, Mike concludes and believes wholeheartedly, that god almighty was "teaching" vic directly by revelation at various points during the actual process itself, as well as during the numerous "proofreading and editing" sessions he reports followed the meetings. i do not arrive at that same conclusion at all, as i have posted many times in the various threads around here at the spot. Mike has honestly admitted that his ultimate and final conclusion regarding his conviction that vic's "written works" are indeed, god-breathed, is not based upon "logic", and, that for him, it is not up for discussion or debate. he repeated this stance on this thread in post #329. this is a religious or spiritual belief Mike has willfully and purposely chosen, after much time, study, inquiry, investigation, and personal labor. i respect Mike's right to make that choice, and Mike appreciates the fact that our host, Pawtucket, allows him the bandwith to faithfully and vociferously witness to us , the lost sheep of the flock of wierwille. however, i remain totally convinced myself, that Mike's beliefs regarding these matters are not those i can ascribe to myself.........my conclusions, my choices, based on my owm journey of faith. thinking that that i could, or should, "prove" to Mike how "wrong" i think his conclusions are produces what? Mike has no need or desire that i prove anything to him about his beliefs!.........they're his beliefs, and i have no just expectation that he should recant from them or reject vic's "revelations". it would be like thinking i could arrange a meeting between mahmoud achmadinajab and shimon peres and they would each convert each other to their respective religious views and the "lion will lie down with the lamb"..........just like these threads, that meeting would likely wind up in a heated debate as to who's the lion and who's the lamb?..........or, prove to me you're the lamb!.........or, did he say lie down or lay down?............how 'bout if i wanna stand next to?...........how bout if i hate cats?..........or sheep?............why does any of this apply to me???..........and, most poignantly, WHY DOES ANY OF THIS MATTER?................i don't care what Mike believes!.........i don't care whather god breathed through a narcissistic, sociopathic, mean-spirited alcoholic, serial sexual predator, or not.............neither affects my own beliefs or actions today! the actual process of vic's revelatory "writing" prowess has been recounted and corrobborated succinctly on this thread. now, fellow greasespotters and lurkers can examine the facts and "mechanics" of that "spiritual" process which god shared in such a spayshull way with der doktor for themselves.............and thereby arrive at their own conclusions or further questions............i thought leafytwiglet's response alone was enough to make this entire thread worthwhile, but that's just my opinion. as far as having only one rule for faith and practice by which to live a positive, helpful, peaceable life among and along with the other six-and-a-half billion humans we share this planet with...............i personally believe it is foolish to think that an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent being would limit itself to one, finite, book, or set of writings, with which to deal with such a complex, needy, and demanding creation!............for me, as a fiercely independent and forever "unchurched" christian, i have one such "rule" for my spiritual life............THOU SHALT LOVE THE LORD THY GOD WITH ALL THINE HEART, SOUL, MIND, AND STRENGTH, AND THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF!........UPON THESE TWO HANG ALL THE LAW AND PROPHETS. there are many other "rules" for faith and practice which govern my professional life, clinical skills necessary to do my job at work, rules for interacting with others, society, politics, ad infinitum. they are no less necessary or important than the rule i try to follow in my spritual life...........and, there are many great contributors to my spiritual life besides some dead drunken pervert buried underneath some obnoxious, overdone fountain polluting the otherwise peaceful, natural beauty of rural america!...........to each his own.........unfortunately, there are those who are convinced i'm doomed to hell and everlasting "lack of rewards" for thinking this way..........hopefully their malcontent, intolerance, irrational fear or hatred will come to naught, and the reality of their god and religion will ascend to its true nature..................hopefully........................peace.

hi greasespotters!! much has been posted on numerous threads here through the years, about the tremendous "scriptural truth", or "accuracy of god's word, rightly divivded, as it has not been known since the first century", supposedly contained in the so-called "written works" of der victoid. as most greasespotters and lurkers here know, our fellow greasespotter, Mike, even proposes that vic's "written works" are actually "god-breathed", or, as stated differently, that the "written works" of vic were given to him, (and, according to Mike, also given to members of the "research team", vic's "team" of editors, and to folks like j.e.stles, b.g. leonard, e.w.bullinger, e.w. kenyon, and other authors whom vic freely plagiarized where his theology, "by revelation", lined up with their's!), by direct revelation from the god and father of jesus christ. thus, according to some who have posted here for a long time, these so-called "written works" vic produced are in fact, or, at least contain, pure, unadulterated, supposedly unfiltered, "rightly divided truth" from the "one true god". personally, i share absolutely no similar belief in the purported "greatness" of vic's "written works", or any of his other "works" for that matter. perhaps it is my personal, firsthand, experience working with the research team on several of vic's "books" that compels me to disagree so strongly with the hypotheses put forth by some regarding the source(s) of all the "revelation" vic got and had "written down" in his books, as well as the methodology of his supposed "biblical research". when i first started posting again here at the greasespotcafe back in september, 2007, i received a few PM's from another poster here at the spot, who asked me specifically how vic wrote his books. i responded in two PM's, which our fellow greasespotter, Raf has allowed me to post here in the forums, and which i think are directly pertinent to this discussion. following are those excerpts. i post them to provide a firsthand, experiential, perspective of the actual process employed by vic in writing every book that bore his name. there are other posters here at the greasespot with similar, firsthand, participatory accounts of their own experiences as members of the "research team" in later years at twi, and who also were in soime of the very same research and writing sessions which i describe in these excerpts of my PM's to Raf. i'm hoping they will add their personal perspectives, experiences, and insights into the FACTS behind vic's writing prowess, and that a lively, objective discussion will ensue. "hello there rafael!.....love that name!.........publicly, vic never would have agreed that he was not the author of his works or that they were really "godbreathed".......just like he would never have accepted being called an apostle........but that's only ''publicly".........back in '70-72, when cummins was his assistant and the defacto head of the research dept.,......the "behind the scenes" mechanics of vic's research was very heavily influenced by bullinger's methodology and style.......that is to say, vic would have cummins and bernita jess (aramaic expert) and donna randall (his personal and research secretary at the time) as his "research team", and he would have them there with various critical greek texts, the novum testamentum graece (a one volume collection of numerous greek manuscript variant readings compared with several critical greek texts, using the stevens' critical greek text as the main body of text for comparison) aramaic manuscripts (primarily Lamsa"s so-called pedangta text), bullinger's lexicon and concordance to the greek NT,, young's and strongs concordances,.pillai's works on orientalisms, bullinger's figures of speech used in the bible, number in scripture, and witness of the stars, and several other "research tools" all immediately available to him at a head table in the front of the brc......and then we would "work the word" on whatever verses or topic he was "working" at the time....." "various in-residence corps kids were "understudies" to the big three and would also be there and sometimes other invited guests or the entire in-res corps.......then, he would begin and all would be looking up "in their particular field of expertise" whatever text or manuscript evidence there was on whatever verse or word he was pursuing.....all the aforementioned sources would be checked and discussions would ensue.......however, the final results were always determined by what vic decided it "just had to be in the "original'"..(sic!).......catch being as he states in pfal."we have no originals"!!......so basically, "the original text" was totally fabricated by whatever vic said he knew it "just had to be in the original text"........many times the final outcome would be vic saying that he knew this was the way to go on a verse or topic and "we'll just have to keep looking until we find a text or manuscript", or whatever spurious source there may be that will corroborate what he wanted to say........regardless of what the actual, textual or manuscript evidence may or may not have been, what vic decided it just had to say in the original was the final answer!......" "i was there (as cummins' "understudy" while in-res) for many of the lengthy sessions that culminated in the first published edition of jcing and that's exactly how the final research was decided upon.......so, in effect, vic was deciding what the "original" was since we had no "originals" to challenge him with.....in other words, vic was making up the "original, godbreathed word" and it was the research dept's mission to come up with something he could quote or use as evidence to support his "knowing the mind of god"!.......that was one of cummins' main jobs when he spent that year in germany at that Institute for New Testament Research......to find texts or manuscripts that would document what vic said it had to be!!!........this was the basis and pattern of what would later be taught to the corps on corps nights as "the literal translation according to biblical useage" crap.......this was also the mold from which all the later publications (jcop, jcops, etc.).....were to be pressed." "so, even though vic would never allow publicly his writings to be called "godbreathed".....you can see from the actual process, how in fact.......whatever vic thought it should say was indeed what it said "in the original" text...........i hope this answers your question raf.....if not lemme know!........peace.......dwbh." from the second PM, the following excerpts.............. "your question is unique and has an interesting "slant" to it........you see, wierwille had very poor writing skills.........all of his "written works" were never written down by him!........rather, they all started out as transcripts from presentations or teachings he did, or from transcripts made from the recordings of the research team meetings described earlier..........this mental "laziness" dates back all the way to the chimes hour youth caravan radio broadcasts. "rhoda wierwille during the van wert days, and then donna randall and karen wierwille martin were the "ghost writer" for all vic's books up until jcop........vic could never muster up the mental discipline required for any serious writing,......she (donna randall) would transcribe whatever teachings, taped meetings or research team discussions vic wanted to "write" a book from, and then she would actually edit them and put them in a written form for him......then, he would review what he had "written", get the research team together as i described to you.....and then have donna put together the final product......remember, she was his "research" secretary as well as his personal secretary........she taught us early corps english every week during our first year in rez!.....everything from basic english grammar and syntax to business writing and even had a "class" with cummins called "research writing and design" that was to form the basis and format for each individual corps member's "research project" which was supposed to be a rquirement for graduation........even vic's account of how he locked himself in a hotel room for a week in order to "put together" the holy spirit book is a lie!!........all he did was lay out j.e.stiles' book and had rhoda (his church secretary at the time), type it up with some minor changes which he DICTATED to her and then put it in the old printing press........that's why there were so many subsequent editions of that book......because when he had donna's expertise available to him, he quickly dumped rhoda for the new and vastly improved model." "once the "writing" process was complete.......those "research" sessions would become the actual "writing" process for all the books that bore his name......it's in that process where the answer to your question lies.........vic probably would not allow anyone to publicly say that his "written works" were "godbreathed"......in that sense you're right.......but remember......he did'nt write any of his books!!......he basically "dictated" them as i described previously........so many, many times, we'd ask a question during those sessions about what the word was "saying" to us in a particular passage or regarding a particular topic and typically the answer would be something along the lines of...."well kids.....it's just got to be this way......i just know it!!"!......and that would settle it!!!....we all just presumed he was speaking by word of knowledge or word of wisdom, because that's the only way he could know it!!!!!......for instance......i remember vividly,......one night we were hangin' at his house and i asked him..."dr.........have you ever been "caught away" to the third heaven and earth?".....(received the revelation in the book of revelation like the apostles john and paul had).........his answer........."well son, you see, there are just some things i'm not at liberty to discuss with you."......now of course, me being the faithful "corps kid" that i was......i knew this meant the answer was "yes", but that god was not allowing vp to tell me outright for whatever super secret spiritual reason...........do you see how that worked????.......he was basically telling me that, yes, god has shown me the revelation but has not allowed me to share it with you yet!!!!!!.........that was the core of vp's "research" process........getting us to assume that he knew what he knew by revelation.....and that if we were indeed "spiritually savvy" enough we'd understand and accept that!" so, while never stating outrightly that what he was teaching or "writing" was indeed "godbreathed".......that was in fact, by default, what he expected us to believe.......else we were just "arguing with god".........phew!........what a flashback your question has brought back to me!!!!......" so...........that's the way it was.............vic's biblical research by revelation...........i wish you could have seen it in the original!..........it just sits there..............like a duck!..........i apologize for the length of this post..........thanks to those who read the whole thing............i hope an interesting and civil discussion will continue...........................peace.

dude!........if you're in a "very serious relationship" with some young twi hottie.........and, you've been to twi HQ to hear her daddy "preach da verd" (as our ham-ster would say)................and, you're still wondering what, if anything, you should "look out for" regarding twi's inevitable , unsolicited involvement in your relationship, and your "spiritual future"...........then i suggest you follow sudo's advice and read up around here at the greasespot.............then, if you still have questions to be answered, or, if you decide to pursue your "very serious relationship", engage the services of a non-twi, licensed counselor to do your pre-marriage counselling, and report back the results of those counselling sessions............by that time, if those steps have been taken, you should have all your questions sufficiently answered..............good luck, and..............peace.

HOLY FREAKIN' WOWZA!...........A La..............i am awestruck and speechless!!!!!............thank you so very much for that post and link!........truly one of the greatest hopes for the future of humanity, IMHO!!!............absolutely "moving, inspiring and motivating"!!!...........all i can say is, that this thread IS "the greatest secret in the world today"!............i love all you folks.........i really do!................peace.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-7QSMyz5rg...feature=related#

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#i know i've posted both of the last 2 songs on this thread before............but, today, each still seemed currently appropriate in light of mark johnson's segment as posted by mstar............please forgive the indulgence!..........peace.

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