DontWorryBeHappy

dearest linda z: 'skuse me, but i was not, in my mind, referring to you as a cultist.......but rather to the stiffies who drive around with bumperstickers advertising their cult and then being surprised or somehow "terrified" at being drawn attention to by harmless, (though perhaps, tall) people who have questions generated by the bumperstickers they knowingly or unwittingly display to garner attention! i know i used twi bumperstickers to garner just such attention by anyone, and uncle harry had his "troops" bumpersticker every vehicle that parked anywhere on twi grounds! it was considered a form of "witnessing" would'nt you agree?? regardless, i stand by my post regarding dmiller's lack of genuinely offensive behavior, considering all the unique specifics in this situation.......but, i also understand and respect your feelings of trepidation had this happened in a completely "generic" situation in these days when threats against our human brethren can come from a wide range of unexpected and unsuspecting sources! all one needs to do to confirm the latter is watch any evening news program!.........peace.

can't all you stiffies see it's all post-twi, wierwillite baloney?????......why persist in the insanity of proven dysfunction psychosocially, psychoemotional abuse, (momentus, personal prophecy, etc.), and interpersonal dishonesty????....i just don't get it!.......peace.

just my 2 cents........dmiller did nothing abnormal, rude, frightening, or spiteful..........you cultists are so entangled in your own detached worlds that normalcy escapes you.........much ado about nothing imho, dmiller!............peace.

could be krys.........but i don't know how to fix that or how to "register" as it tells me i must do...........any clues?.............peace.

i can't get in.......keeps saying "erroneous nickname: Illegal characters"..........'sup wit dat?

Hi Billy D! thanks for that very forthright and extensive reply! i appreciate it........and, heartfelt congratulations to you on your marriage and the birth of your first child! and also for making those the number one priority in your life these days!............imho, you can't go wrong by making and keeping your priority to spouse and children #1 in your life.......i wish you the greatest success in your family life, for it will be your finest achievement. John made those comments and reminiscences to me in one of the conversations i had with him by phone while i was pursuing the answers to my questions on that thread i started on 10/01/2007 addressed to jalvis and jeff blackburn. i remember he was driving home from some ces event in michigan while talking to me on his cellphone. i was honestly quite taken aback by his comments regarding the motorcoach conversation he had with vic concerning his (john's) biblical research future...........that's why it still stands out in my mind so vividly today. And, we're all pretty familiar with the john lynn diatribes stating how proud der vicster would be of all his ces/stf kids and the great work they're doing. that letter is still floating around in cyberspace! it lies at the core of my distrust and disagreement with ces/stf doctrine and practice on many christian and theological issues. to mention wierweille and any genuine, legitimate biblical scholarship in the same sentence is to me, oxymoronic!...............but, that's just me.................peace to you and yours!

Billy D said....... "Though I dearly love the many people I have had the pleasure to meet and serve with over the past 7 years of my involvement with CES/STF, I'm VERY happy to see much of the TWI influence go away." my engines just can't take this one captain!! imho, there's as much twi influence in stiffy as there is in cffm, the geerites, and any other twi offshoot/way tree splinter group! they pay constant homage to the "great truths" der vicster taught them, brag about the fact that wierwille, the founder of twi and stiffy theology, would be proud of what they're doing, and every single person who sits on their exalted BOD is an ex-wayfer! ( "ex" nominally at least). and yet, you state billy, how very happy you are to see much of the twi influence go away???????????????? the twi influence on and in ces/stf will remain as long as there are wayfers running that cult!!.............could you explain what you mean by the statement i quoted above? or maybe tzaia understands what you mean and can help me out?.........either way, it makes no sense to me right now!................thanks!.............and...........peace.

"...twi realized that things had gone too far because people were leaving in droves, so they racheted rfr's changes back to a "kinder gentler" version and that is where they are now." "This reflects a popular belief that there was a "kinder gentler" version of the past TWI days to go back to. I don't know when that was. I think he should explain that statement." i agree penworks.....wholeheartedly!................how about an explanation geek, about your leadership role in the "real" "kinder, gentler version" of twi that the offshoot, way tree splinter group you help to run has been providing to twi fugees for more than a decade now? how far removed from grampa wierwille's doctrines and practices is cffm really?........just wondering, since you posted what you did, if you'll respond to penworks' thoughtful post............hoping you will, and that a lively, civil discussion will ensue..............thanks,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and...............peace.

stiffy, their spurious doctrines, and their strange practices, "SLEEP WITH THE FISHES" as far as i'm concerned..........just quoting another man-made character.................peace.

Posted Yesterday, 09:31 PM krys, on 30 October 2009 - 02:19 AM, said: Research Geek has given you God's perspective on things. . . "Debatable".............per Bolshevik. imho, the geek has given the perspective of another twi offshoot, cffm............debatable at best................penworks' post provides more of "god's perspective" than the geek's, imho............good questions too................any answers??????...................peace.

bump #2 hello fellow greasespotters!...........i don't know about you, but i, for one, am consistently disappointed by the "fly-by" posts that seem to be the pattern of the ces/stfi members and apologists who post their sentimental ces/stfi info-mercials here in "their" discussion forum at the greasespot cafe............what's up with that? as immensely "talented" and knowlegeable about the "rightly divided word of god" as their prized, christian "leaders" are purported by them to be, why is it that they refuse to share themselves with us here?...........ces/stfi spends their followers financial support on three websites they run and own themselves..........and yet, none of them provide a discussion forum like this for their own followers!...........those sites are loaded with all sorts of writings, "teachings", tapes, cd's, podcasts, "events", etc., which promote ces/stfi and their "leaders"..........but nowhere do they provide any place for their followers to engage their own critical thinking skills, or encourage objective, analytical discussions regarding the doctrines and practices they proclaim as "biblically accurate truth"!..........they used to.........but that was abruptly discontinued when their "personal prophecy" doctrine and practices were being questioned by some of the more "vocal" followers who raised important and critical questions concerning the veracity of what their "leadership" was declaring as "truth"!...........evidently, such free-wheeling, open discussions do not effectively enhance the "group think" twi offshoots require in order to accomplish "god's will"! personally, i'm tired of the excuses they make for not posting here themselves.............and just as tired of the "fly-by" posts their surrogates come up with in their desperate attempts to validate, expiate, rationalize, and justify some of the UTTER NONSENSE they foist upon us here at the spot, and the rest of the known universe!.......apparently it is beneath their "dignity", or their "godly calling" to discuss any thing with any "community" which does not wholeheartedly agree with what they preach and teach!..........or with any "community" which is not as "proud" of what they're doing and teaching as the founding president of twi would be!.........this thread provides several good examples of what i'm typing about......... paradiseden posted, "As a Christian minister, he engages people in conversation and appears to be really interested in them. He is a kind person, not abrasive or arrogrant in his manner of conversation and does not come across as thinking he is better than another Christian. John exhibits many of the qualities you would want a Christian minister to have if he was the leader of your Christian organization. And having these qualities in his life are a few of the reasons why he is the current President of CES (Spirit and Truth).".........what is so unique or special about these "qualities"??..........they describe a large number of "christian ministers" who conduct themselves in the same manner as john s. all around the globe, without ever giving such conduct a second thought.......that's pretty much the way "christian ministering" is done in most christian churches!.......it's fairly obvious, that paradiseden must have had some experiences in twi, with "christian ministers" whose conduct was quite different, eh?......probaby some of the same ex-twi "christian ministers" who ran ces/stfi at one time!!......there have been a couple.......... so........pray tell, paradiseden, billy d., batcave,...........why do you trust schoenheit's spiritual and intellectual judgement so strongly?..........do you believe what the "ministry" he's president of teaches and practices?...........are you "members?........former members?............are his spiritual and intellectual judgement among the "qualities" you admire?............are his spiritual and intellectual judgement among "a few of the reasons why he is the current president of ces"??..........maybe you could respond on one of your next "fly-by" missions...........probably not...........oh well..............not responding to questions posted here in the ces/stfi forum at the greasespot is one of the "qualities" of ces "leadership" we've witnessed repeatedly, and have become accustomed to...............peace. 0

bump..... hi all you fellow greasespotters!.............it's been awhile since i've posted here in the ces forum..............but, this topic caught my attention, since i spent a good deal of time trying to get answers from john s. john l, the greaser's, jeff blackburn, and anyone else in the ces/stfi "leadership" group, several of whom have posted here at the spot...........as part of my efforts, i spoke with john schoenheit on the phone a couple of times in late november and december of 2007, and reported back here some of the responses i got from my personal conversations with some of the ces/stfi bod members, because none of them chose to post for themselves here in the forum set up just for them, since they had long ago shut down a similar discussion forum at their own websites...........i feel that some further info i received from my phone conversations with john s. last fall is appropriate for this thread........... first of all, let me state that i have known john s. since 1974, when we were both with twi in north carolina..........i was on my interim year of the corps "training", and john was a college student at nc state, raleigh, where he ran a college wow way home, IIRC.......our interpersonal contact was not frequent during the years 1974 through 1986, but there were many occasions when we "ran into each other" as faculty members at various "root locales", and several times during research team meetings during the writing of jcop, jcops, and other reaearch dept. activities at which we were both present............in the fall of 1986, we were both at hq, and i may have inadvertently contributed to john's ignominious "firing" from twi research staff, because i circulated his adultery paper among those who, it turned out, had a viciously tenacious agenda of totally silencing discussion of the "material" contained in that simple little paper for reasons now, hopefully, well-known to those of us who have frequented the greasespot during the last 8 years....... i concur with those who have posted on this thread concerning john's genuine christian character, and his personal, "moral compass".........i have never known john to be other than described above by tzaia, wrdsandwrks, dmiller, catcup, billy d., and batcave...............and, when he was unjustly and cruelly fired on the grounds of the adultery paper in 1986, i fought hard on his behalf to have that decision overturned and to have not only john, but anyone else who was "punished" for "promoting" the adultery paper, promptly and unconditionally re-instated to their previous twi "positions"...........to no avail.............culminating in my own resignation from twi staff in december, 1986, for reasons which included the brutal mishandling of all those who were attacked and punished due to their "involvement" with that paper...........i ran into john at mark car**li's "fellowship" in troy, oh, in the winter of 1987, where i had been invited to sp[eak, and we spent a few hours discussing all that had transpired earlier that previous fall..........and, again in charlotte, nc, where i had also been invited to speak several times during 1987 and '88.........it is interesting to me, that john is among the very few "leaders" of any post-twi "ministry", whose personal character, and morality cannot be honestly impugned because of behavior or actions on his part...........a sad testament to the fact that so many others in similar positions of "leadership" in twi and/or its various offshoots, cannot stand up to the same kind of scrutiny when it comes to their own personal "walk of faith"! my questions about john do not concern his character, nor his personal and interpersonal morality............rather, i find myself "forced" to question his "spiritual" and intellectual judgement through these past 22 years of his post-twi history............why?...........because, as a ces/stfi bod member since 1988, and its current president, john has been prominently involved in the development of ces doctrine and practice from its infancy to its current status as one of the larger twi offshoots still "moving the word" among a church still comprised mostly of twi refugees..........a ministry which, imho, continues to promote a large percentage of the same spurious, pseudo-christian doctrines/practices which vic inveigled deeply into the "god consciousness" of all those who attempt to present it in their own "kinder, gentler, ministries"...........having started out by proclaiming vic was "wrong" about adultery, as well as a list of 26 other "differences" ces claims for itself, from pfal and other twi "standards", john has overseen the evolution of his "ministry" to the point where, today, he agrees wholeheartedly with his fellow ces former prez, john lynn, that, indeed, vic himself would be "very proud" of what they're doing!!.............viva la revolucion!!! among the most disturbing things john s. said to me during our last conversation, was the following:........." i remember one time, on the motorcoach with doctor, when he said to me, that if i remained faithful, i'd be able to take the research of the word further than he ever could have imagined possible in his lifetime. well, i believe i have remained faithful to the word, and i believe we (ces/stfi) have done exactly that and we're continuing to do so, just like doctor wierwille said. i honestly believe that."...........so, john s. apparently still sees his "calling" to be the same as his "father-in-the-word" laid it out for him "back in the day"!!..........same "basic research principles" without the more nasty mistakes vic and twi "stumbled into"!.............now that really is something vic would be "very proud of"!!............sic!............i question the "spiritual" and intellectual judgement of those who would be "blessed" that vic would be "very proud" of anything they say or do!!.............nothing like the posthumous pride of a mean-spirited, alcoholic, narcissistic, sociopathic, serial sexual predator, to validate your "ministry"!! having been a member of the founding bod of ces, i remember quite distinctly how much jalvis insisted upon bringing john s., and the graeser's onto the ces bod in 1988.........it was a hotly debated issue back then, and, when jalvis finally got his way, several founding bod members promptly resigned............at that time, there was major disagreement about the promotion of and participation in the momentus "training" by ces "members"...........sue pie**rce, robert be**lt, tom rea**hard, and ralph dubof**sky, all founding bod members refused to participate in momentus and its promotion, and none of them ever did........but, john s. and the graeser's did, and still proclaim its "benefits" to this day, despite a less-than-gleaming track record of ces involvement with that "christianized" EST type scam!......john s.'s doctrinal "vetting" of momentus helped its promotion and validated the inculcation of momentus terminolgy and practices into the daily activities and speech of ces/stfi itself, where they remain to this day!.......i question the "spiritual" and intellectual judgement behind these facts, then and now........ then there's the entire "personal prophecy" fiasco!..............the insanity of this spurious malpractice of "christanity", along with its concommitant spiritual abuse, was once again vetted for ces by john s. repeatedly, eventually becoming "institutionalized" into ces/stfi with the publication and sale of their "research" manifesto on the topic.............a publication which ces/stfi and its current president still proudly stand by and promote as "truth"!..........there are literally hundreds of posts, scattered throughout this ces forum, which document the insane progression of this "truth" from its genesis with ces involvement with florida church international (?), and greg pharis(sp?) all the way through the departure from ces of its second prez and his wife along with the resner's...........the sordid "secret" details of this aberrant practice, and it's viciously destructive impact on ces bod members themselves, and their families, are also posted all over this ces forum!.........i absolutely question the "spiritual" and intellectual judgement of those who stubbornly adhere to and promote this foolish doctrine and practice as somehow being "biblically accurate"!!............ i also must question the "spiritual" and intellectual judgement of any person who,,,,,,,,, despite numerous "moral failures" on the part of the two previous ces/stfi presidents, despite numerous accounts from former followers of various "hurts and abuses" suffered by them at the hands of ces "leadership", doctrines and practices, even after many dollars and hours spent by those same followers in the "pursuit of godliness" as defined by ces/stfi........still determines that, continued loyalty to the teachings and practices which comprise the total ces/stfi "package" is somehow "right with god, the father of jesus christ"!!...........not only that, but such loyalty is supposedly based on "the rightly divided accuracy of god's word"??..............according to whom??? john schoenheit is, by all accounts, "a really good guy", and, he is a really good "bible teacher"............he's honest and forthright about what he believes and why he believes it.............he does'nt "come accross" as some ego-tripping ex-twi "leader"..........he seems "down-to-earth", and approachable.............he does nice weddings for folks...........and he enjoys the "seclusion" of camp vision, and hunting and fishing.............he loves "working the word", and he believes he is carrying on in vic's stead to research and teach the word, "as it has'nt been known since the first century".........and, he believes vic himself would be "very proud" of what he's done and continues to do...........and, he believes it's "god's will" for him to be financially and materially supported by "god's people" in the body of christ who choose to do so............and, he's a citizen and resident of the USA, which allows him the freedom to believe and teach whatever he wants, and to earn his living by doing so.......and, it gives him the right to do all these things in a free and open society, with freedom of religion and expression................thank god!.................it also allows me the freedom to express my questions regarding the "spiritual" and intellectual judgement behind his choices, and to make my own choices as to what i believe about his "ministry" and its teachings and practices.................to each his own........................peace. This post has been edited by Don'tWorryBeHappy: 28 May 2008 - 08:36 PM

DELUDED NOSTALGIA.............that sums it up in 2 aptly chosen, well considered words, imho!...........write on penworks!....................peace.

imho...........der vicster was a racist, nazi pig, and had no more in common with gandhi or mlk jr. than did hitler, stalin, or pol pot!......................peace.

hi greasespotters! on 10/01/2007, i started a thread asking john lynn and jeff blackburn if the ces "crisis" was over......................i posted daily questions to them and all the so-called "servant-leaders" running the ces sideshow back then, using their own materials, writings, etc. so as to encourage a context they would be familiar with, and hopefully encourage them to dialogue with the greasepot community as to what they were really all about............... all i can say to this latest series of longwinded, meaningless, rationalization, doubletalk, and cult-speak is "we told you so"!.................starting way back in may 1988...................it would be funny, if only it was'nt so heartwrenchingly pathetic, and if only so many hundreds of really good human beings had not been so despitefully used and hurt by another group of self-serving egomaniacs cloaking themselves with the bible and christian religion in order to make themselves some money, and bask in the adulation of those they deceived and used....... another story in the "naked city" of the psychosocial, pseudo-spiritual, self-obsessed world of man-made religion and its self-proclaimed "spiritual leaders"! a truly sad story indeed!!.............and yet, they persist.........undaunted, "un-embarrassed", unconcerned with the welfare of the world they supposedly are "called and ordained of god" to love, serve, and genuinely minister to!...................their self-constructed institutions become that which must be served and made to survive, not their fellow human beings!................."ever learning and never coming to a knowledge of the truth"............ever earning and never feeding the poor...........ever preaching, yet never really doing the things jesus did and said they too should do! i do not "rejoice in their iniquity"..........i do not pity them, for they deserve no pity, but rather contempt for their unyielding stubborness, unforgiving selfishness, and unending repetition of the same misguided delusions that have led so many of their ilk down the same shameful path of self-destruction, and not contributing much of anything really helpful, beneficial, or uplifting to the rest of the real world! so.........looks like the answer to the questions i started asking back on 10/01/2007 is one huge, loud, roaring, neverending "NO!"....................peace.

yo groucho!!! i'm with you all the way on this one bro!.........peace.

dearest bishop!.................... .wtf are you taking, drinking , or smoking??????????..............that is one of the most insane posts i've read in a looooonnnng time!........who are you really????????..............lmao................................peace.

no crappy brown blotters for me you kwazy skwiwwel!.....had my own orange sunshine on little sugar tabs custom made by a friend who was getting his master's from columbia in, what else?????.........CHEMISTRY!..........LOL!..........i still don't get the pic on my screen........dunno why........don't care............i'm thinking about the saturdsay night of woodstock which began with CANNED HEAT in front of a setting sun!!!!!!...........it just got better from there..........ending with the jefferson airplane at dawn!!!!!!.........man........i'm havin' a flashback!.........LOL!.............peace.

i just looked again, and it's gone..........must be some kinda joke fer sure, dontchya think?

ham..............first there was a picture.......now it's gone........what is this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzQQgF0p_kk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-d5x-CiTUs

der fuehrer vic was a nazi, intellectually, philosophically, and theologically. as a "closet aryan" by heritage, and deeply held belief, he was antisemetic and racist to the core, but in order to gather heefner and doop's "groovy christians" under his control, he hid his nazi, "christian" aryanism under the cloak of love, peace, and jesus, with the "war mission" called "the word over the world". as waysider correctly points out, we "groovy christians" of the late 60's and early 70's were never exposed to the realities of der victoid's true aryan, racist theology until the advanced classes of the mid-to-late 70's, culminating with the outright promotion of "the myth of the six million", "the hoax of the 20th century", and "the thirteenth tribe" from the main stage teaching podium by der vicster himself promoting the sale of these revisionist BS publications in twi's bookstore!!!........it was revolting, troubling, doubt-inspiring.......to say the least........and went against everything i ever personally believed..........especially since my maternal grandfather had been imprisoned in and survived dachau!!...........this AC 1979 was the beginning of the end for me with twi..........although it took 7 more torturous years to fight and undo the successful corps brainwashing. so, alex.........the answer to your questions is a resounding YES!!!......................................peace. p.s..............just fyi............i never bought or read any of the publications i cited above, something i was criticized for back then, but of which i am thankful and proud to this day............propaganda is propaganda.............and those publications are, imho, pure and simple revisionist nazi propaganda!

YES!!!!!..........i was there for the entire glorious thing!.......got there early........wednesday before, and stayed at a friends father's retreat camp............which was being used by an hassidic jewish congregation.......who did not "mix" with the wild, music jammin', naked hippies who invaded the empty owner's quarters..........we were "evicted" thursday evening, and showed up at yasgur's farm late thursday night...........where we stayed until the following monday evening, celebrating the entire four days of love peace, music, drugs, rain, mud, and a moment in history never to be repeated in this country!..........one of the greatest times of my life..........unforgettable and life-altering!............can't believe it's been 40 years!!!!!!!!............woodstock, though much shorter in time, was worth more than all my years in twi!.....................peace.

my opinion.............no free pass deserved!.............classic enabler and co-dependent............she knew of all der victoid's shenanigans..........and , for reasons known only to her, she chose, willfully, to suffer the indignities of vic's perversions and relentless megalomania............i saw her cry..............i saw her yell............but i NEVER saw her publicly defy what she knew to be his lies and vicious use of human beings to fulfill his personal lust and demons!...........she shared his bed........she bore his children, (well, at least 5 of them anyway), she kept his secrets, she covered his lies, she tolerated his meaness and cruelty to her own kipp family................she alone knows why...........i surely don't!................peace.

HAPPY BELATED BOW!...........HOPE YOU HAD A GREAT DAY WITH FAMILY AND FRIENDS!.........BEST WISHES FOR MANY MORE IN HEALTH, STRENGTH, AND SOUNDNESS OF MIND!.......................PEACE!