DontWorryBeHappy

My personal take on the entire concept and practice of "ordination" in twit is that it was manufactured by Vic. It is completely his interpretation, or rather misinterpretation, of yet more Pauline doctrine. Twit is a Pauline church, not a Christian church IMO. "We take the place of the ABSENT CHRIST" was the definition of a SOGWAP......remember that acronym? Paul is the head of vic's "ministry" not Jesus Christ. Vic assumed the place of his fantasy of what Paul must have been like and that became the model of the mog. Then, Vic pounded away at the ultradispensationalist teaching that ONLY the Pauline Epistles and a few others (like Peter, John) are "god breathed" TO the church. EVERYTHING in their version of the bible is either TO Israel, The Gentiles, or FOR our learning. Most of the splinters teach exactly the same thing, and thus I say they are all Pauline ministries and not Christian per se. ALL the definitions of the so-called (by vic) "5 gift ministries" allegedly listed in Ephesians are made up by vic! Please show me any place in the bible where these "definitions" are given. Show me any place in the bible where anything at all resembling twit's ordination rituals are presented as vic performed them. No one can do so. The entirety of vic's "man of gawd" fantasy is based on vic's own perverted sociopathic narcissism and his "revelatory understanding" of what Paul and gawd really meant is as good as Paul's revelation in the first century. It's all delusional folks. There is no shred of biblical or Godly "accuracy and integrity". It is simply make believe. So, I place absolute no credence, biblical, spiritual, Christian, Pauline or otherwise in ANYTHING vic taught or practiced with his so called ordinations. I don't presume to have ANY "gift ministries" or "helps and governments" to or for any church. I am not a dispensationalist in my overall view of the bible, so I reject the emphatic elevation of the Pauline Epistles above the rest of scripture. I do not think Jesus Christ, nor the Heavenly Father had any more to do with twi ordinations than other ordinations in any denominations or independent churches, and really, IMO, far less. We're there actual Christian ministers faux ordained by Vic during the course of his 40 year charade? Yes! I agree with Sunesis re: Steve Heefner, Jimmy Doop, and Donnie Fugit. They had Christ goini' on and it had absolutely nothing to do with vic or his ordination hooey. It had everything to do with God and Christ and Holy Spirit......the real deal. As for the rest of us? Who knows. It became more like a fraternity door prize than anything meaningful. Probably it was always that way, I just didn't know it. I am a Christian. No more and no less than any other Christian. I am no one special in my mind. I'm an RN, not a clergyman. I don't believe or accept one thing as truth regarding vic'n'twit's interpretation or practice of what they called "ordination to the Christian ministry". It's as real as Harry Potter to me.

MRAP: You never cease to amaze me. Sometimes I wonder if you're just playing games around here or if you are really as dense and lost as you present yourself to be. Your recent posts decrying what you perceive to be a "corps/clergy" elitist group which controls this site to promote its own views, and censor counterpoint is quite paranoid. It is a site designed to tell "the other side of the story".....the documentable and adjudicated FACTS about what twit was and is. You apparently cannot accept those FACTS, or you have connections with folks who still place any value in twit's "teachings" or those of twit offshoots such as STFI, TLTF, S.O.W.E.R.S., et al. You insist upon picking fights about topics you know nothing about, and you disgrace the memory of wonderful folks like Donnie Fugit with your lies, ignorant presumptions, misinformation, and complete lack of understanding of this man or the twit ordination rituals. Are you this vapid and incoherent in all your activities of daily living, or just here? Seriously.....how incredibly thick can a person get in this country? However thick that may be, you're there MRAP.......LOL! Between you and TLC, I'm thinking the cafe might need some air conditioning upgrades.....you know......a stronger exhaust system......oops! Sorry! Yet another corpse/cloigy elitist conspiracy uncovered! Woohoo! You got us!..........LMAO!

TLC posted: "I am neither a defender, an endorser, or a viscous critic of VPW. There's plenty enough others around that fit that bill, and at this point, I just don't think my opinion will add or subtract anything to what's already known and been said about him here. (And I'm well aware of most of it. Have been for some time now.) TLC would you please be so kind as to respond to the following? "TLC......TY on behalf of all "the younger readers here". We all your appreciate your stepping in voluntarily as the wise old sage under the guise of asking questions (my opinion), seeming to want to encourage contemplative, objective critical thought and hindsight. However, when re-read and followed closely, they are not contemplative at all IMO. Rather, they are combative and filled with YOUR personal recollections and opinions stated as if they are indeed factual. When confronted with these matters of fact, having no logical retort, you resort to the old tried and true logical fallacies of the ad hominem attack, straw man arguments, false equivalencies, false choices, and red herring arguments quickly get thrown around, again under a guise of encouraging contemplative, objective critical thought, but in actuality, setting up another combat zone to stake out whichever ground it is you desire to own or represent. Why? What is your reasoning behind these writings? What is your objective in posting them here?" I asked you this back on page 6. Since you posted today that "you are neither a defender, endorser or vicious critic......... I just don't think my opinion will add or subtract anything to what's already known and been said about him here. (And I'm well aware of most of it. Have been for some time now.)" If indeed these are your thoughts why do you bother posting here at all? What are you seeking to accomplish other than shoving both feet in your mouth and whining when asked what you are trying to communicate? Then, when you deflect and issue your next non-answer you cry that some mystical presence here at the GSC disables you from doing so without picking fights instead of making points? Then, it's our fault for pointing out discrepancies in what YOU write instead of YOU explaining what you are trying to say. It is becoming tiresome to try and engage you in meaningful dialogue.

Donnie Fugit was a graduate of the 5th corpse. He began the twit work in Wichita, KS. He was ordained by Vic while Donnie was still in Wichita prior to coming by to HQ to coordinate the first WOWs ever in places like Greenwood, MS. IMO, Donnie was indeed a "special" guy, but not for any reasons you misinformed everyone on. Righteous ignorance?

"Have you ever stopped to remember, DWBH, what sort of person you were before the ministry, or honestly pondered what effect it, and the lofty titles given to you, had upon your ego? Take the question however you want, but I ask it with no malice or ill will intended. (because I was sucked up into it right along with everyone else.) Yes I have TLC. I have spent many hours in retrospection, reflection, and discussion regarding all things twit in my life. I was a wild'n'crazy hippie musician from New York City who was having a blast. I had been deeply involved in the anti-establishment activism of the 60s and disillusioned with the same by 1969. I went to Woodstock. Went to the Fillmore East almost every weekend, and I lived in the greatest city in the world. I got "witnessed to" by Joe fair and Paul Cuoco in late 1970. Then I took PFAL to disprove it and get Joe Fair to replace my Hagstrom guitar which he had blown up in a car accident at Prospect Circle, paying $45 to sign me up for the class instead of replacing my guitar. Well, that began a 16 year dance in the religious gulags of twi. I became deeply involved in "moving the word" in NYC & The Way of Long Island. By the summer of 1971 I was working full-time for the way of Long Island for $10/week plus petty cash for gas and expenses. Then, in July, 1973, I went into the corpse. I went in so I could come back to NY and run the Brooklyn/Queens area again and play music. I saw the handwriting on the subway walls. If you wanted to run a branch or anything bigger in twit, you had to "go corpse". So I did. The next 13 years were a detour from the life I had "planned". I got to do a lot of things and travel to a lot of places I never would have had i not stumbled into da corpse. I also wound up knowing far too much about the rotten underbelly of Christian cultism and its criminal "leaders" than I ever wanted to know. It has made me a stronger, wiser, and more thoughtful human being. I am really happy and at peace with where I'm at now, physically, mentally and spiritually. Not satisfied or "done", but rather at peace with my God and myself. I am lucky and thankful to be alive and living in a great part of the free-est country in the world. Very thankful indeed.

TLC wrote: "It's ironic that your post appears in this thread on "Why isn't TWI as big as it was in the 1970s?" rather than the one on ordinations. For any of the younger readers here, it offers an encapsulated picture of that same ministry leadership attitude from the 70's. No surprise, though, because that was you then, and evidently, is still you today. If anyone didn't have the right credentials then, they were a mere bug to be squashed if or when they were in the way or questioning anything that the hierarchy dictated. So, if anyone is thinking... if I had been there, I would have seen it and spoken up. Well... did you see it, and did you speak up? Not as easy at allas you think, is it? It's far easier to "go along" with it. Jump on the bandwagon, in fact, and show you're hip." TLC......TY on behalf of all "the younger readers here". We all your appreciate your stepping in voluntarily as the wise old sage under the guise of asking questions (my opinion), seeming to want to encourage contemplative, objective critical thought and hindsight. However, when re-read and followed closely, they are not contemplative at all IMO. Rather, they are combative and filled with YOUR personal recollections and opinions stated as if they are indeed factual. When confronted with these matters of fact, having no logical retort, you resort to the old tried and true logical fallacies of the ad hominem attack, straw man arguments, false equivalencies, false choices, and red herring arguments quickly get thrown around, again under a guise of encouraging contemplative, objective critical thought, but in actuality, setting up another combat zone to stake out whichever ground it is you desire to own or represent. Why? What is your reasoning behind these writings? What is your objective in posting them here? "it offers an encapsulated picture of that same ministry leadership attitude from the 70's. No surprise, though, because that was you then, and evidently, is still you today. If anyone didn't have the right credentials then, they were a mere bug to be squashed if or when they were in the way or questioning anything that the hierarchy dictated. So, if anyone is thinking... if I had been there, I would have seen it and spoken up. Well... did you see it, and did you speak up? Not as easy at allas you think, is it? It's far easier to "go along" with it. Jump on the bandwagon, in fact, and show you're hip." Your opinion, maybe based on facts in which you were involved, but still it is YOUR opinion and not a recounting of those facts. I never had "the right credentials as far as those twits were concerned. My politics were "wrong", being from NY was "wrong" my personality was "wrong", I had no college degrees and was basically a hippie musician bangin' around the clubs and music scene of 1960s NYC. Not a jock. Apparently, some one treated you as "a mere bug to be squashed" at one point or another, but I am confident it was not me. If indeed it was, recount the facts and let's get them straight. But, no matter, the ad hominem attacks have been made and the straw men laid......lol. You have presented your personal opinions and hypotheses as fact when they are not. They are false premises and opinions dressed up in pseudo-intellectual pop psycho-babble IMO. Now the playing field is a huge vicious cycle of argument and not a transparent, honest debate or discussion. Point in fact? "No surprise, though, because that was you then, and evidently, is still you today. If anyone didn't have the right credentials then, they were a mere bug to be squashed if or when they were in the way or questioning anything that the hierarchy dictated. So, if anyone is thinking... if I had been there, I would have seen it and spoken up. Well... did you see it, and did you speak up? Not as easy at allas you think, is it? It's far easier to "go along" with it. Jump on the bandwagon, in fact, and show you're hip." Yes. I was there, and I did speak up. I got thrown off of that "bandwagon" far more often than I was allowed to jump on it. I allowed myself to be brainwashed into a John Birch Society Christian. I take responsibility for that. But I also take responsibility for continuing to keep the record straight as to the crimes and misdemeanors committed against wayfers by their "leaders and elders". That is my choice. And the need to continue doing so still persists. Tell me TLC: How do YOU KNOW "how I was then, and evidently, is still you today."? Did I know you then? Were you in the third or 4th corpse, or on staff? How did you get to be such an authority on me then and now, pray tell? I apologize if it seems to you as if I am asking for "your credentials". Like you, these are honest questions, take them as you will.

What made you so ill poor fellow? Pray tell. I await with baited breath the interpretation of your vomitous reaction. Got an attitude? Got milk?

Hi TLC. I have read with interest your recent posts. They seem to have a slant directed toward me which smacks of sarcasm and hyperbole. I trust your prejudices may be overcome by honest dialogue, if you can get over your obvious attitudes. My recount of the ordinations stands as is. There are only date errors. The turd corpse was "invited" to be ordained one year after they graduated, as were the 2nd corpse. I PERSONALLY discussed the denial of ordination to 3 different 3rd corpse individual with them and "elders". Two males, one female. They were NOT invited to be ordained nor were their requests for same m considered. These points have been made here before by Charlene Lamy Edge, 2nd corpse grad and have been acknowledged by yours truly. So , your sly attempt to attack my credibility regarding 30 year old facts has fallen to pieces. I'll put my memory up against your's any second of any day. How many corpse placement meetings did you attend starting in 1977?? What corpse were you in? What are your twit "credentials"? Tell us oh cryptic one. You are not sparse with your sarcastic opinions, so how about telling us about your twit involvement? NO lying or embellishments now.......LOL! TLC, you appear to be to have a personal agenda that goes beyond exposing authentic facts regarding twit and your involvement therein. That's fine, but also quite obvious. The posts I have made recounting the facts behind twit ordinations have been verified by several who have been ordained and others who observed ordinations. Get your facts straight and try again. Also, try reading ALL the info posted here regarding twit ordinations. You might learn some things or, at least have your sleepy memory woken up. Then, maybe, there may be some value and veracity to your sardonic sarcastic editorializing. TY.

it's recounted in "through the fog" and two or three other threads around here. Let me know if you can't find them. I'll try to help.

The entire "devil spirit field", or as Dictor tried to phrase it, "the Holy Spirit field" was a delusional anti-science and anti-psychiatry rant developed by B.G. Leonard and plagiarized by dictor in order to bolster his advanced class and revelation reputation. Vic was scared to death of psychiatry. He knew he was a pathological wormhole and did all he could to deny and deceive and delude himself away from the facts. He was lucky enough to escape without getting busted, but the other three assholes didn't have the cunning he had, and were busted cold within 10 years if their rule. The Justice they deserve yet remains unrequited, and may remain so.

I personally confronted dictor in his bunny hatch motor coach in early 1983. I have recounted the utter futility of this idealistic (on my part only) endeavor to "practice what we preached" here at the GSC several times. Dictor Paul denied and lied about his immoral, aberrant and pathological behavior, and took those lies proudly to his waterlogged grave. Geer gleefully carried the lies to myth-legend status to serve himself and Walter Cummins as the true "mantle carriers"......LOL! They're still working in their "eagerly awaited" advanced class redux. Hope they get it done in time to compete with jallyroll Lynn and "rev" Gerry wrenn and their Wierwille revisionism. A bunch of fat leeches feasting on the blood of innocent and sincere ex-wayfers by spoon-feeding them the same old pablum and self-serving man-of-God, take the place of the absent Christ doctrine their faddah in da woid used to suck the money out of his followers. Still works on the waybrained like the charm it was when Dictor was alive. Dictor is still the good ole cashcow for these jerks. They continue in their Vic-shaped identities to this day, demonstrating incredible capacity for lying, self-delusion, convenient selective memory loss, and fraud. ALL (wrenn, lynn, seed, finnegan, geer, cummins, schoenheit, maurice goulet, Lester Wiley carver, TLTF, SOWERS, and a host of other twit offshoots around the world) succeed only to the extent they can keep the ex-wayfers enchanted by the apostle/mog for this our day, and time, and hour(sic!) legend of their faddah-in-da-woid. There are still a couple of thousand of ex-wayfer a wandering aimlessly that these leeches can attract. Or, is it attack? So.....I am definitely in the confront-the-dang-out-of-them-all mindset. How can any rational, compassionate human being be a part of acquiescent assent to their banal .... through silence and indifference?

Lots of words with absolutely nothing said. Enjoy finding your church. Love your STFIs and TLTFers, your schoenheits and lynns, whomever. This is America. Worship whom you want. I could really not care less. Glad to see you enjoyed your Lutheran Christmas Eve service. Whatever floats your life raft. Argue with someone else who wants to waste their time with your nonsense and phoney researchers and false teachers. I'm going to enjoy the rest of this life. Bye bye now.

So.........nothing more from any TLTF twustees, eh? How disappointing! Just when it looked like there was a grain of credibility and honesty about to shute forth from the bowels of the TLTF twustees and jalvis puts the old kibosh on it. So John lynnish, no? Can't teach an old dawg new dog and pony show tricks I guess. The End Times Discussion they made such a huge deal about on their justtruthit YouTube channel was a complete disaster. In the final, edited/deleted/banned-in-60 countries version that now appears there, there is not one comment from any non-TLTF member on the entire week-long discussion thread! They've all been deleted except for the ones from TLTF "elders" like Don Culp, Don Chamberlain, Sha-Na-Nandra Higgins, Janice Erickson, and other TLTF "elders". Nice open discussion eh? None of the things "discussed" by anybody else except their own board of elders was left standing. Not even the rare personal appearances of jalvis himself were left. Too revealing you know. It basically came down to this is MY bible and no one knows it or teaches it better. That's it. Jalvis gets another cult to run into the ground of his own massive ego and greed. At least Touchstone was dumb enough to actually post here where they can't delete, ban, edit, bury, obfuscate, and just plain trash any and all counterpoint like jalvis likes to do. Bet he won't be making that kind of mistake again eh Bottley and jalvis? Not if he wants to keep his minus-tray he won't. Jalvis don't take truth from nobody but his gawd, and his dead, water-logged faddah in da woid under the fountain. Guess touchstone knows that he knows that now. Still planning on yet another version of pfal this spring, if the $$ holds up. They only needed about 40-50K for this version and, maybe they got that now? They were supposed to do all this last May, but ran short of $$ and the Producers were too sick at the time. But, now, by the grace of your prayers and checking accounts, they're still getting better, and god's gonna get the glory!!.......Er.....but......they keep the money. So, as this year draws to a close, TLTF is still regurgitating the same old garbage in the same old twit-like manner. Dictor Paul and Jallyroll jalvis his son, are still re-doing the magic class and begging for money and motor coaches. Maybe 2016 will be the year jalvis returns to "full-time minus-tray"?? How does he support himself and pay his medical bills. His gawd is good I bet......and probably wealthy too. Even for phoney, tripped-out Christian "leaders". But, our heroes are stretching themselves as thin as possible to do all "the work" of their minus-tray so you'll cough up enough $$ to make them full-time to meet the needs they've worked so hard to create for all of their sycophants. A tiny speck of deranged humans clinging to their interpretation of the bible and each other as if they make a difference to any living creature besides themselves. The same old pathetic garbage jalvis. Starting to get a bit old'n'crusty jal. Really starting to smell too. Can't you guys at least clean up after yourselves??

Just a quick question for MRAP and the rest of you stiffies and tltfers here: Do any of you still give any credence to that incredibly inaccurate and self-interpreted version of the King James translation? The authors say it's designed to support their own "rightly-divided", accurized version of the bible according to schoenheit and MRAP. Are you still trying to palm off your 3rd grade elementary school interpretation of the bible according to vic as anything else but a complete academic, scholastic, and "biblical research" fraud? Do you still think schoenheit has any valid, accredited, meaningful coursework in Biblical Greek and Hebrew let alone "textual research"? Do you approve of Gallagher and schoenheit's financial plan for STFI? You know, the one where they sell whatever they can of what's left of STFI, Jenivee schoenheit is her own real estate broker on the sale of camp vision, and Gallagher and schoenheit take the money and run. Nothing left for Jalvis and the Swa Tra Tras. What good is a phoney bible version from an uneducated egomaniacal academic and scholastic fraud without all the ripped off "seed faith" giving money you can coerce out of your old glassy-eyed wayfer base of support? You use the name of The Lord in vain and call private interpretation "research" worthy of giving your money to God through STFI to accomplish what exactly? I think you owe us at least some kind of opinion regarding your REV pilgrimage MRAP. Is it anything but a complete academic, scholastic, textual and theological fraud? Or is it scheduled as a series for Comedy Central? You blew in here like a bull in a china shop MRAP, all hepped-up about how important your REVvie is to the world. What has your research brought you to conclude about the value of the REV in the world of biblical studies, exegesis, and theology? Out-house material, or revelation? BTW.....how much did gallagher and schoenheit make away with from jenivee's sale of camp vision? Give anything back to those fleeced? What does the REV say about stealing and making merchandise of the saints?

BTW.....it was at AC '79 when vic made the first loud push of the Bircher books, Myth of The 6 Million, The Hoax if the 20th Century, Koestler's The Thirteenth Tribe and the other anti-Semitic hatespeech which landed twit on the AFL's Anti-Semitic Hategroup watch list in 1982. So, the correlation with Vic's take on Jonestown and his John Birch Society "understanding" and "revelation"......which by the way, were introduced to vic by a John S. Lynn, jallymog's father and political thinker of twit's inner sanctum...... And one of its largest abundant sharers.

When Jonestown took place, I read the Time magazine reports to the corpse at lunch. Vic's initial comments were along the line of mass possession. His first immediate response was "same spirits as that damn Massada". Later, he refined it to an overall conspiracy theory of never ending twists and turns along the lines that dmiller was referring to. The ultimate disgrace of vic's revelation culminated at the foot of the Massada during the Bible Lands tour of 1985. Da forehead had about 12-15 of the tour busses take an unplanned trip to Massada late in the afternoon one day. Here he took off on the whole mass Debbil spurt possession of the Essenes at Massada. He became so rude, obnoxious and insulting with his rant that all the Israeli tour guides and busdrivers walked off on the spot stranding us and the 15 busses at the side of the road with the Massada looming overhead. It took about $8000 in "tips" to get us back to the King David Hotel. During that despicable rant, Okie knucklehead compared the events at Massada with Jonestown. Another diplomatic victory for King Okie the Doofus. Eventually, da forehead was getting "revelation" about the Pope and his new aircraft carrier! Then Y2K, one threatened invasion and takeover a year or so, and the building of the walls of Zion around the Prevailing Woid in Da Household yada yada yada was well under way to the glory of no one and nothing. Vic's greatest "revelations" were the most glaringly paranoid delusions that eventually provided more nails in twit's coffins. They're still the Zombie Apocolypse of Christianity though and doing a great job on the WOP class or whatever. More great heavy revvy from the mountain tops of hell........LOL!

Great question Oakspear. At Sumner School in 1970, the big hit besides the AC, was a class vic did which he entitled "How To Enjoy The Bible". The only temxtbook was Bullinger's book by the same title. Vic went through the entire book and everyone was amazed at how much of piffle was in that book! I bought it that fall and was also struck by its verbatim similarity to the first 8 sessions of piffle. It was during this summer school class that vic first started really ruminating about JC not being God. A lot. That's where vic first said that he believed Nullinger was on track to eventually believe and teach JC ain't God. Of course no corroboration at all. Then, the full blown "research" started on JCING. It got rolling full steam during my first year in-rez, 1973-74. We had several "research nights" on the subject with cummins, Bernita jess, Donna Randall and the rest of the meagher research dept. Then the first interim year, 74-75. Book was published in the fall of 1975 and vic did his huge Motorcoach through the center of new knoxville dog'n'pony show, culminating with his ousting the book jacket and all the reasons JC ain't God. A hugely gawd's and arrogant deal with the air horns on the coach blaring and a long parade of wayfers marching behind it. Extremely embarrassing, at least for me. Then, the wars started with the cult rap gaining a full head of steam with JCING now splattered all over the place. It was this huge PR campaign and the pugnacious, combative methods vic employed to push his cult and his controversial book were garish and grossly argumentative. Just looking to pick a fight with the "mainstream denominations and their seed boy leaders" to establish his own superior church based on his version of rightly-dividing da woid. THAT's what was important. All that brouhaha over the completely non-salvific argument over the Trinity for nothing more than ego and pride. My truth is truer than your's. Absolutely NOTHING to do with Christian charity to the poor, sick, homeless and starving. Absolutely NOTHING to do with salvation in Romans 10:9,10. NOTHING about Christian living and giving. Only, buy my books or go to hell. Take my classes or remain useless to God and die with zero rewards. All about him and his with Jesus Christ nowhere to be found, prayed to, or felliwshipoed with since He is absent in way world, stuck at the right hand of God until vic and his minus-tray are done moving the word over the world and racking up the golden cookies at the bema. Taking the place of the absent Christ continues as a hallmark of twit theology along with that of every stupid offshoot. All over a non-salvific philisophy invented by man to explain the nature of God. How absurd. So, I would say that the real big "move" on JCING started at Summer School 1970, and culminated with the publication and public tomfoolery of Vic's Martin Luther impersonation at his old church in new knoxville. All over nothing to do with Jesus Christ's mission of salvation and love. All about vic and his prayshuss minus-tray, not about The Boss. Total waste of time and money.

SkyRider.......the folks here at the GSC have exposed quite a bit of the soft, infected underbelly of twit. We know a lot about who the lifelong losers who took twit for themselves along with 64 million $ are. The spot has helped to knock them down to where they are now. They'll be a around as long as the money holds out to keep Gunnison and hellquarters alive and paid for. Or until they all just die off. We know much about who did what. Vic did control all the info and communication from hq while he was healthy. There was no recourse. The propaganda machine has been in place since Van Wert. But, the Internet did open the floodgates and the river is still at flood stage. As secure and rich as Rosie and her lover Donna think they are, they live a wretched existence in guilt, shame, and revisionist denial. They can have it all. I'd never trade places with any of those lowlife criminals.

Well.....not surprisingly, Jon Touchstone has not appeared since I posted the previous post. Guess his "chief minister" got the revelation to dust off their feet from GSC once again. The "answers" to our questions were nowhere to be found. Genuine humbleness of mind was not displayed by either of the two TLTF Twustees who posted here. Just quotes of themselves and those who agree with their distorted, invented systematic theology regardless of what the Bible they idolize really says. They are chronically arrogant and self-centered. It's their way or the highway. Jallymog even hijacked the name "CES" from those of us in MA who started up Christian Educational Services of MA in February 1987, while jally was still a fulltime employee of twit as limp coordinator of D.C. Sometime I'll tell you all what the vision of the rest of us who founded CES was for the outfit. It was NOT what you've seen and heard from those liars and deceivers who've been running it since 1988. It was just jally starting HIS MINISTRY again for himself and his own ego and financial greed. They paid themselves $106K a year salary, plus all expenses. They bought camp vision as their "Camp and HQ". They just sold it for over "$300K. Jenivee Schoenheit was the broker and the money was split between Gallagher and Schoenheit. No split for graesers and lynns. They got Lotsa ex-wayfers to pay for their high-life ministry during the 90's and early 2000s. What did they get for it? What is the legacy of these greatest ministries since the first century church? Ruined lives, disgraced and shamed "leadership" which defrocked and fired each other while sifting a ton of money from the suckers who were stuck on Wierwilleism and idolatry of Vic's versions of the bible and Bullinger, Stiles, Rinker, and Leonard. Jally continued his illicit, chronic, adulterous behavior without missing a step and got fired and defrocked for it by his own BOD. Never hear much from any of them about how they seduced people right back into their twit lite "ministry". So, I doubt we'll ever see any of them here again. Their lies and dishonor have been exposed yet again. As long as there are fools eager to follow false heroes and keep giving them money to disgrace The Lord Jesus Christ with their anti-Christ teachings and practices. The cockroaches have scattered again when the lights went on. Vermin is as vermin does. l

Hello Jon Touchstone. Are you still with us here, or will we see you no more? I hope you stick around for awhile. You' the first Twustee that's ever posted more than once here at the GSC. I was looking forward to more good, substantive discussion. Are you coming back to at least finish up on this thread? Please advise. TY.

Great thread folks. Thanks for directing me here Raf. IMO, the entire theology of twit was blown in session one of piffle. "The Word of God is the will of God". That's true if you are referring to Jesus Christ as "the Word made flesh", but not true of the Bible as a whole in any of its forms, MSS, critical texts, canonized or not, or commentaries. I told jalvis I do not believe that the Bible he worships, studies to death, believes to the point of self-delusion, and teaches so wrongly is not THE WORD or will of God! It was on my back deck of my house in Franklin in 1991. Even though his entire original BOD had resigned and abandoned him by then, he still felt entitled to spend one night during any of his "itineraries" through MA. His presence for even that length of time was so annoying and disconcerting to my wife and children that they danded I tell him he was no longer welcome at our house and to please make different arrangements from then on. That was the opening of that conversation in my back deck. JAL was in total shock that those words even came out of my mouth, let alone that I really believe them. He was literally stunned. I told him that I do not believe that everything from Genesis to Revelation is "Godbreathed". In fact I told him that, I actually think most of it is not gidbreathed at all, and that includes Paul and Moses especially. Well as far as jal was concerned I was now doomed to hell and "deceived by spirits of whoredoms and slumber". Ppffffftttt. Once we bought that subtle switch of "Words", vic had us all in his perverted P.I. ballpark throwing one curveball after another with bad calls to boot! The Bible is NOT the Word and will of God. Parts of it might be, and some of it I consider to be worthy of belief in the spiritual part of my life. But, that choice to believe is based upon my own study and interpretation of the Bible, and I do not feel called nor disposed to preach anything to anyone with any presupposed authority from God or Jesus or Mother Earth. My beliefs are based on my choices which are based on my own personal value system and understanding of "things spiritual" in that spiritual part of my life. I remain open to dialogue and learning from any other human being.....some positive, some negative, some tremendously moving, others cold as ice. But, no matter what, learning is always available from every interaction with any other creature with soul. Once one grows completely comfortable that the entire Bible is absolutely not Godbreathed and that the idea of "no private interpretation" is completely contrary to the purpose of writing and communication of any kind between humans, then the boundaries of illogic necessary in order to make the Bible "fit like a hand in a glove" are no longer necessary. We are free to believe whatever the hell we want to about the Bibke and any other topic or thing in the universe. I do not believe Jesus is the ONLY way, truth, or life. I do believe that the fruit of the spirit is present wherever the Spirit of God is at work. Makes it easy to accept the authentic "bigness of God". Why people choose to remain comfortable in the tiny perverted lockbox of vic's gawd, I do not know. Ignorance thrives in misery and misery loves company, I guess. Either way, I refuse to limit God and Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit to B.G.'s definitions, Bullinger's incisive logic and linguistic prowess, Stiles' method for "leading people into tongues", and for wierwille's perverted drunken Nazi opinion on anything any of those guys said or wrote. I refuse to limit God period. And, my beliefs are exactly that, MINE. Not better or worse than anyone else's.......just different.

Any one who wants to take this "class", or who has been waiting for it for any length of time, or actually believes there is anything at all of any positive value to be gained from taking it.......deserves it.