penworks

Yes, that's true for me and I regret now that I no longer have some books, papers, old photos of me growing up, etc. For anyone who doesn't know how this worked here's my experience: A couple of verses used to motivate and justify this destruction [of course a verse was usually quoted to justify everything] were: Colossians 3:9, 10 "Lie not one to another, seeing that you have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man which is renewed in the knowledge after the image of him that created him." This was made to mean the knowledge of the Bible (as taught by twi of course) and the version of the Bible as we have with the canon in KJV today. TWI never pointed out that this canon, much less the KJV, wasn't even defined much less in existence when this verse was written...but who cares about tedious details like that? <_< Another doozy: II Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature, old things are passed away; behold all things are become new." Since I was convinced by vpw to believe these verses came directly from gawd almighty, then as any good little fanatic would do, I tried to wipe out all evidence of my identity prior to taking PFAL. After all I was a "new creature in Christ" and who I was "in the flesh" didn't matter anymore. Granted, there's no doubt there's value in changing bad habits, but it's a shame people fall for this sort of manipulation that breeds extreme behavior all across Christianity and other religious groups, too. Lots of creativity gets squelched, to say the least...and it can take years to recuperate from that destruction of identity. Lucky for us we live in a country where we CAN have the chance to recuperate and where the gov't (so far) cannot force us to adopt any particualr religious beliefs. I've been to some countries where a religion is so ingrained in the culture, it's unthinkable to question it. Let's KEEP our chance to have separate church and state issues (boy how did I get on this rant?) Speak up when and where you can. peace, penworks

How? Denial. I used to be the queen of denial (right, bad pun) so I know, although I did not return to twi after leaving. That thought never crossed my mind.

Agreed!

For anyone interested, here's my recent comment to John on his blog at the Way Corps site: John, We've known each other since 1970 when I was just a kid overtaken with the idealism of The Way at ECU. With due respect, I am stunned, in a way, that someone who thinks as much as you do, has decided to laud VP's works and methodology as you still do. I still feel that the conversation you and I had in my living room in 1987 after I left the Research Dept and HQ was when I had my chance to pry into your thinking...when I explained that I couldn't go around and say "Thus saith the Lord" since I didn't know 100% what the Lord might have said. You interpreted my concerns as being "burned out on twi" but that was your misunderstanding of the reasons I had for coming to that conclusion. I know how much I don't know about the history of text and that trying to create a relationship, as they say, with God based on ancient writings is futile for me. Oh well...it's clear you are a train without stops. I'm not so foolish to think I can change your mind about what you believe. I just want to say take care and in your most quiet moments, try and consider that maybe what you are so sure of just isn't so certain after all... Peace, Charlene

IMO it's ludicrous to think Ralph or anyone could portray John in a misrepresented way. All one needs to do is read John's own letters/statements to understand where he is coming from. And those are posted EVERYWHERE because he promotes himself so much. As I see it, Ralph told his story as he experienced it and because I was at HQ during that time, I can say I have no argument with his take on things. The whole system caved in because it was doomed from the start. A system built on sand can't stand [wishful thinking on my part...] Anyway, read any decent book on fundamentalist/cult movements and you'll find they are all based on fear. fear. fear. And fear will burn itself out eventually [more wishful thinking]. Who needs it? Now, moving on to more important issues...let's see...I think questions for each of us include what do we want to do in this world? Make it a better place? Love others? Understand and have compassion for different people's points of view and religious beliefs? Protect first amendment rights? Be good citizens? Tell our stories as honestly as we can? Get educated about what twi actually is and the belief system it perpetrates? Mmm...lots to ponder... Peace, penworks

View Karen's outstanding talk on the TED web site: http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/karen_a...compassion.html

mmm...I used to think I could control my thoughts as described by twi, but then when I started meditating, it was amazing to see fast my "thoughts wandered" off of what I was trying to concentrate on...just a thought <_< that doesn't rule out the human ability to change our minds from one thought to another and decide which one to act upon... other stray thoughts on this topic: I remember wondering, when I started to question doctrines, that if "the adversary" could so easily deceive me like twi claimed, then the fact I was "standing with the household" wasn't providing much protection from him...

I agree with much of what you wrote here and have a further comment to make which may be a little off topic, but here goes: My comments below are observations I've had over the years about this part of what you wrote: "... people who exhibited Christian behavior (love, compassion, caring, giving, extending yourself to help someone)... " It seems to me these qualities are not exclusively "Christian" at all. I've observed them shown by many people from many different faiths and people who have no religion at all. Some of my best friends exhibit this behavior and they include Jews, Buddhists, agnostics, and atheists. I think Christianity has hijacked them due to the cherry-picked verses in the gospels that portray Jesus in such ways. But he was not a Christian! When I take a look at some of Paul's epistles, on which much of modern day Christianity was founded, for example, I often see vindictiveness for people who don't think like he thinks they should, I don't see compassion. TWI did the same thing to justify their terrible behavior towards anyone who disagreed with them, left the ministry, or of course those "awful critics" whose ideas they never fairly debated in public. I agree it's a terrible shame that so much harm was and is done by equating "ministry" in the bible with The Way Ministry. Other so-called Christian groups give the same sort of interpretation regarding their organizations. It's high time these groups underwent a radical change of some kind...but too bad - the fact is that to maintain competing groups like these organizations, we all know there usually has to be an "us vs. them" mentality.

Well, there are lots of topics here at gsc I think, that mention people like B.G. Leonard, Stiles, etc. Actively seeking their assistance is an interesting way of putting it. I think he looked for people to "back up" what he was teaching. During my Way Corps training in 71-73, he brought in an archeologist to "prove" there was "proof" of Bible events found in the ground of Israel, etc. He used tapes of exorcisms at the Advanced Class that illustrated and backed up his teachings on devil spirit possession. There's also Lamsa, of course, who he invited to HQ and he backed up VP's belief that Aramaic was the language the Bible was written in. IMO, there's no real proof for that claim, although lots of people believe it. That's all that comes to mind just now... I wonder what VP was really searching for. "The Truth" about what? He convinced me there was no truth found anywhere about anything outside the covers of the Bible. Yikes. peace, penworks

No, you were not the only one with attention that wandered from the tiresome propaganda... The notion that people can apply this verse is more complicated than I imagined when I took the Renewed Mind class at TWI when I was 19 yrs. It seems to me that TWI used the verse Romans 12:2 (and hundreds more) to justify the claim that by accepting twi teachings, which was equal to thinking "the word," a person would prove the will of God in this world: "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." etc. etc. This version of this verse, which is a version of a translation of a copy of a copy of a copy etc., is one that most scholars believe was originally written by Paul, unlike other epistles that seem as if he was author, such as the pastoral epistles. IMO, Paul had something in mind when he wrote this verse, but it's not clear to me what he was referring to, but the people he was writing to probably understood him. IMO "the world" is a vague term. It's hard to know what he meant since he lived in a vastly different culture than mine --- and a very long time ago: about 2,000 years ago. At any rate, he was often telling people what to do [note: if you believe the bible is the word of God that was sort of dictated to the writers, then I guess that what I have to say doesn't mean anything to you. We'll just agree to disagree on that point]. My point is that TWI wanted us to apply this verse, like many many more, to our modern-day situations without our knowing how or when to do so. Oh, yeah, I forgot. Our spiritual leaders would tell us when and how. Like, telling us that a new person in our fellowship who was asking questions all the time... well, he's "of the world," he's not hungry for the Word, he just wants to argue, so cross him off your list of referrals and don't waste God's time on him. If I'm going to renew my mind to this verse, what do I identify as "the world"? It sometimes became a matter of shunning things like participating in Halloween, listening to pop music, etc. But then it got confusing when we were supposed to put God's word in culture, too. How would I know when I was really not conforming to the world but somehow re-making the world by re-interpreting it, getting God's Word in it, into the culture, blah blah blah. It became very confusing when I stopped to think about it. So I didn't think about it. I did not really do that until about 15 years into the ministry. Yikes. Then I left. IMO, this verse also assumes we are sort of like blank slates that can be written on and changed. It only addresses the mind. I have nothing against changing my mind in an effort to be more loving, more patient, etc. But clearly this dictate from Paul does not consider emotions, the complex nature of the brain, concepts like nature vs. nurture, etc. To be fair, how could Paul address these things? Which is part of my point. I have found that this book, the Bible, [which is an anthology, which carries its own issues, as such] is rarely relevant to my life. I soul searched this question: What value is this ancient text to my daily life now? Well, if I cherry-pick some "positive" verses like ones about love that are used at weddings all the time, I feel good. But is that necessary? [i'll refrain from expanding on this]. Here's a link to a talk by someone who IMO has something to add to the conversation about behavior and what makes us the way we are: http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/steven_...lank_slate.html peace, penworks

Oh, yes, I see that now. Looks like Mike's comment at the end...not RG's. Thanks :)

Wow. I'm surprised at Research Geek's comment from his above quote dated October 04, 2002: "Dr not only earned his doctorate, but he performed far beyond what any PhD has ever done for anyone. He brought us God's light like it hasn't been seen in 2000 years. In my book that earns him credit far beyond a doctorate." Maybe Research Geek has changed his mind since then. For me, that's an impossible claim to believe anymore. peace, penworks

I think one of the top 10 favorite phrases VPW popularized in twi was, "You have no friends when it comes to the Word." I believe "the Word" was defined by VPW, so if you disagreed with that you were WRONG. When I left HQ in '87 after 17 years of involvement in twi, several people that I thought had been my closest friends, chose twi and its doctrines over remaining in touch with me...one told me to my face I was deceived by the devil. But a few stood by me and are still my friends today. Cheers! penworks

A reliable source (IMO) within the last month told me they are back in the USA.

oops, Happy belated b/day, Socks. It's wonderful to "see" you again after all these years! Sending peace, joy, and love your way today and every day, Penworks

Since I'm being referred to here, I thought I'd chime in. Just to clarify: I returned to college post-twi to get a liberal arts education (the word "liberal" in this case does not refer to any political left wing stance or religious stance, but that's another topic). I did read lots of English literature and philosophy etc. that helped me think clearly and logically and exercised my critical thinking capacities. I earned a B.A. in English. I did not get a degree in early Church history or Semetic languages, etc. I just like to read. I've read things pertaining to the history of the Bible, etc. during and after college. For a good overview I'd recommend Karen Armstrong's The Bible - A Biography, and her A History of God. Also, for those interested in what interpretation of texts, including the Bible, involves, pick up a copy of A Short Introduction to Hermeneutics by David Jasper. Hermenuetics is just a fancy word to describe our understanding of the nature of texts and how we interpret and use them. Happy reading/learning/living, penworks

Great news! I'll be watching. peace

I would argue that ignorance is NOT bliss...ignorance has only hindered me in being a more fulfilled person or one who could better weigh options before making informed decisions. But I'm an obsessed reader and knowledge junkie so take what I say with a grain of salt. Perhaps this will shed some light, although I can only speak for myself here...For me, reading about the history of Bible texts or any other texts considered sacred in the world is separate from what I feel is an internal spiritual life. I have come to the place that spirituality or "faith" in an unseen creator does not have to depend on knowledge from a book, any book, including the Hebrew scriptures or the diverse collection of documents in the N.T. or the Koran or any Buddhist writings or Shakespeare for that matter. If it did, we'd be in the soup. Why? We don't have any originals and even if we did, what we'd have are originals of the Hebrew people's mythology (that is not a derogatory term) and the originals of letters in the N.T. to specific groups of people who understood them in a different context and culture than the one we live in. The events surrounding why they were written are long lost to us. In addition, they were understood by people with a world view vastly different than ours (one small example is that they thought the earth was flat) and so their meaning is not necessarily one we would relate to. But that's another huge topic... For me, the more I explored different religions, the clearer it became that generally people from all cultures throughout time have been using religion as a way to express their understanding of a Creator, to record their perceptions of it, and not to define it accurately or know it completely (well, maybe Paul thought he was doing that but I'm not sure about his agenda). It's the extremists that have made the problems, made the US vs. THEM a problematic attitude about one's religion. Karen Armstrong is a wonderful writer on this topic. Check out her work on Amazon, especially The Battle for God - The History of Fundamentalism. So is Joseph Campbell, author of The Power of Myth. Of course, they are not writing from a "Christian" point of view, but from an historian's point of view, just as Bart Ehrman is doing about the history of N.T. texts - and where and how the canon was decided upon. But perhaps this post does not fit into this thread. If a person wants to stick with the Christian frame of reference, which includes that the Bible is God's Word and there's no other way to know Him (or It) than from the Bible and through Jesus Christ, then reading theologically-based works by Christians would be of more interest... It seems to me that most religions are all pointing to the same star but from different directions. For me, it became important to understand how and why I came to take the Bible as the authority over anything else such as other religious writings, and more importantly, over what I knew was right inside myself. In this process spanning 20 years since leaving twi, I feel I've gained a more appropriate view about the Bible and so appreciate it differently than I did while in twi. But I'm no scholar or expert. And I'm sure enjoying the journey post-twi.

A good read on this topic is: Vital Lies and Simple Truths - The Psychology of Self-Deception by Daniel Goleman, PhD. He writes: “Lacunas are black holes of the mind, diverting attention from select bits of subjective reality – specifically, certain anxiety-evoking information.” Pg. 107. Our task, it seems to me, is to first be aware these exist and then try and offset them with reality checks. For me, reality checks include listening to other people, reading a lot, and making more time for contemplation and reflection on my life than modern society normally allows. Hey, no one said it's easy. Cheers, Your neighborhood book hound, Penworks

Right. I thought that was the point, too, back in 1970 when someone talked me into taking PFAL. I admit, they didn't have to twist my arm too hard, since I was so hungry for "answers." Too bad VP did not allow for much FIXING...especially after the PFAL class was filmed. Couldn't redo it after all that $$ was spent! Oakspear - congrats on your 7th anniversary. My 21st is this month.

Paw - Someone who might be able to shed light on your question about where vp might have stood just prior to JCNG being published is DWBH. My own 2 cents: When I was about 12 yrs. old, (yeah yeah back in the dark ages ) my mother and I sat in a pew on Good Friday at St. Francis de Sales Catholic Church. We were supposed to contemplate on the crucifixtion and what it meant for Jesus to die for us. Jesus, who of course was the second person of the Trinity, was also fully man, and fully God. As expected, I was also taking catechism classes at Catholic school and had it pounded into my pea brain that God was the creator who kept the universe in order, for instance He was busy preventing Earth from crashing into Mars, etc. So out of boredom or a trouble making impulse, or something, I leaned over and asked my mom, if JC was God, but he died and was dead for three days and three nights, who kept the universe in order while he was dead since that was his job as God? She frowned and said it was a mystery. Did not make sense to me. Then in high school, I got involved with Young Life. My local leader made a point, for some reason, of pointing out the word "trinity" was not found in the N.T. and so wasn't "true." He made that claim on the basis that the N.T. (at least his copy of Good News for Modern Man) contains the entire truth of God's Word, so if the trinity ain't in there, it ain't true. Made sense to me By then I was starting to question the authority of my Catholic church. Mmm...not unlike in the tradition of someone named Martin Luther, but of course I was too young, too uneducated, and too shy to nail anything on any front door of any cathedral and cause an uproar. But then of course I had never heard of Martin Luther yet, either. Then, in Dec. 1970 I took PFAL and don't remember hearing the word "trinity", only that JC was the son of God. Made sense to me. (Of course, vp had a way of making many things seem as if they made sense, since you barely had time to think about what he was saying nor the implications of what he said.) Then, I left twi in 1987 and decided I didn't know anything for sure. Most people here probably know that the trinity was "invented" long after Jesus died and this "trinity" became a major church doctrine. It was an attempt to identify just who or what JC was since there were so many conflicting ideas floating around (ref. books like Lost Christianities - The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew and you'll get a good overview). The debate continues to this day, obviously. Makes it up in the air for me. I'm inclined to think JC was a man, although an enlightened one and definitely worth reading about in the N.T. and other documents. But then you should know that I'm a person who does not hold to the idea that the Bible is "perfect" nor contains everything we might ever learn about what people call "God." BTW - Has anyone read The History of God by Karen Armstrong? I know Socks has. Cheers!

Since I'm getting quoted here, I figured I'd respond to this. In my comments about people in twi getting college degrees: vpw's comments that I heard were specifically in reference to the ECU guys finishing their degrees before they went in the Corps so that they'd have a worldly credential along with their Way training. He thought this would give them entry into leadership circles out in the world where they could witness and win people for twi. Without a degree, there would be a more limited way of reaching people. I venture to say that this idea continued well into the future. It also included gaining "sense knowledge" that could be evaluated and "made accurate" and useful to twi (like he used to change words in songs to make them more accurate with his version of the Bible). That said, I would never, I repeat never, mean to say that anyone who got any degree accomplished that ONLY to serve twi's purposes. Knowing some of the people DBWH mentioned (in the thread about TWI vs Therapeutic Relationships), I'm venture to say that in their hearts they genuinely wanted to help people. Who knows what is in a man or woman's heart anyway? The problem is that because twi was a closed system, these trained people in counseling were in a very odd situation when counseling, to say the least. DWBH outlined those issues already. Peace, Penworks

Hello DWBH and everyone here, I've been on vacation so am just now catching up. Boy, this is a critical topic to any discussion of twi, IMO. It is a CRITICAL area of ANY ministry. I was in an early Corps, before DWBH, and had no focused teaching on counseling people other than using the Dale Carnegie class principles mixed with the Bible. Like when you're counseling a person, "Try to see things honestly from the other person's point of view" and tell them things like, "Live in day tight compartments" to overcome worry. To that, we'd add things like, "Think the Word, the Word, and nothing but the Word." The idea was to keep people focused on positive not negative thoughts and we'd point out appropriate Bible verses for them to "renew their mind" in whatever catagory they had a problem. That, of course, fosters denial of stupendous proportions. In that scenario, problems are not really addressed and resolved, only covered over with a bandaid. I can testify to that! When I graduated from the Corps in 1973, got married, and went to L.A. for our first assignment, I was scared to death of counseling. It was not clear how to go about handling people's problems except to encourage them to renew their mind to the Way teachings and love one another - and use those Carnegie keys. It's a shame, really. I shudder to think how many people I tried to "help" with these pitiful tools and hope I didn't do too much damage, telling people to just "get committed to the Word" or "let go and let God" so that their problems would be solved. Geez. I did all that myself and I KNOW my problems many times were not solved! I do remember that any counseling by "outsiders" like psychologists or psychiatrists was definitely "off the Word." You couldn't forbid anyone from gaining that help, but it was labeled as "sense knowledge" and even worse, as DWBH mentioned, vpw said it had its roots in spiritualism (the devil's country), not the accuracy of The Word. So I never suggested that to anyone; we just tried to discern any devil spirits and pray for people. One thing I was confused about was regarding the manifestations of the spirit, like discerning of devil spirits, which we were supposed to "operate" in order to help people. If, for instance, being homosexual automatically meant a person had a devil spirit of homosexuality, but the only way you (as their leader) could know whether that person had such a devil spirit was by "operating discerning of spirits" then how come by just looking at them or being around them you could tell they were gay? What do I need discerning of spirits for? My 5 senses told me the situation clear enough. I didn't need to "operate" a manifestation of the spirit. I just didn't understand how to tell the difference. I often felt weak spiritually because I was unsure. It just did not add up. BTW - I had a family member who was gay and I resented this whole teaching! I loved that person and accepted her the way she was. I could not accept that she was possessed. The twi history DWBH recounts of the "counseling" class that came in later years is on the mark. I remember all those people he mentioned and the parts they played in the story. From my perspective, I saw some people getting degrees in college only to gain that worldly knowledge so they could somehow "make it accurate" and use it in the ministry. The degrees were to make twi look respectable to the world so we would seem more credible in whatever we did. vpw himself, while I was in the Corps, told us that. Let's all hope people get the kind of help they need when they need it...it's not always easy and sometimes it takes awhile to find the right sort of counsel. But for heaven's sake, who can honestly think Jesus or God or Buddha, or anyone spiritually minded would label people who are trying to provide mental health solutions to others as "of the devil." Let's crawl out of the dark ages... Peace

Krysilis, I, too, am terribly sorry to hear this happened. Thanks for telling us. And thanks to Skyrider, also. My heart just aches for you all and your families. Perhaps knowing you have supportive people here helps a bit. For me, having known these top "leaders," I am especially terribly sad over all the corruption and hurt through the years that was kept in the shadows from so many of us. I left HQ in 1987 and have known little about things that happened after that until coming here to gsc. It's about time these stories are told and listened to. One question: can you tell us what action, if any, you know of that Rev. WC might have taken after this incident? Did he leave HQ then? You can PM me with the answer if you want. Peace to you.