penworks

I too am very distressed - to say the least - to read this topic and my heart goes out to you, Brainfixed. This is a shocking thing you said, "how many times i was told "the word" gave parents and husbands the "right" to kill "disobedient" children and wives." I joined twi in 1970 and left in 1987. Never did I hear this. It's an understatement to say this is a hideous and dangerous belief. And twi said it was Christian??!!!

I think you've raised an excellent point - the fear used to keep members from questioning twi teachings. It's an important one especially for anyone wrestling with old twi doctrines and trying to decide which ones are "accurate" and which ones to toss out (I say begin by learning how documents in the bible became scripture in the first place, who wrote them and when, etc. but that's another topic). IMO opinion, the problem persists even post-twi. Many twi splinter groups seem to miss this point entirely because they continue to propound twi teachings. Anyhow, thanks for the effort you put into describing this process of fear motivation used to get people to stick with twi's interpretation of the bible. Nothing like using the boogy man to make people afraid and keep 'em in line. It's an old method used by plenty of religions and groups around the world but becoming aware of it is the first step up to enlightenment, in my view.

Hi everyone, I came across this article in the NY Times archives today and thought some of you might want to read it. It's an older one, from 1982, but some newbies here might benefit from it especially. The Psychology of the Cult Experience Cheers!

This is a wonderful wish. If only wishes came true.

Just some thoughts: I also viewed Susan Blackmore's talk and she surely has a point about immitating being powerful. But it is a theory. Theories are not written in stone. In a way I think she lends credence to the rewiring theory, but she also left me wondering how stedfast the effects of immitation really are since people change and thinking and believing are mysterious things, influenced by many forces. I'm no professional on this topic, but it seems true that we are complex humans who have all sorts of ways to "weed out" some kinds of information and latch onto others that suit us at any given time; we don't always fit the theories. As we all seem to realize, each person is different and got into and out of twi for different reasons and often in vastly different circumstances. A question that keeps haunting me is: if circular reasoning is so impenetrable, then how come so many of us broke out of it? Seems to me that it's not 100% impenetrable and it does NOT take coercion to break through it (deprogramming tactic) but sometimes it ain't easy... So what does it take? For me, the system showed itself broken and I had to face the fact there were better ways of thinking and living that would help me...that's an understatement for those of you who wonder...

Visit this T.E.D. talk by former moonie & deprogrammer, Diane Benscoter, about how the human brain is changed by the circular logic, etc. of extreme dogmatic groups. Diane Benscoter's T.E.D. talk I think she may be right about how impenetrable circular logic can be, although for many of us who left TWI, for example, somehow we found a way to break through that firewall so it is not impossible to do. Critical thinking is the method of release, as far as I'm concerned. Anyway, this topic is not new to many of you here, but her talk is concise. She has also written a memoir. It's food for thought and debate. T.E.D. is a site for "Ideas worth spreading" as it says. Cheers!

Didn't mean to be abrupt. Was short on time when answering, but that's no excuse for sounding rude, if I did. Sorry... Cheers!

Yeah, too bad there's no tape... I don't think we'll ever know for sure what he said. The records of what he said were written long after the fact...but in my opinion, I am more inclined to think he said Why has thou forsaken me? if he indeed said anything at all. I've not seen any support for "spared" in any text...

He did go to Univ. of Chicago but focused mostly on Greek. He did not work on these Aramaic projects. I don't think we'll ever know for sure what he said. The records of what he said were written long after the fact...but in my opinion, I am more inclined to think he said Why has thou forsaken me? if he indeed said anything at all. I've not seen any support for "spared" in any text...

I know who "Research Geek" is and he did work in Greek, he did not work on these Aramaic projects.

VPW, as far as working on these Aramaic projects himself, had NOTHING to do them - not with the translation, interlinear, or concordance. He was interested in producing them, however, because George Lamsa steered him in that direction, claiming Aramaic was the original written language of the scriptures. Other than supporting the work with his interest and using ministry funds to pay Corps people to work on these projects, VPW was not directly involved. I know. I helped work on these projects in minor ways, doing editing and checking, and was part of the group who completed the Concordance in 1985. My training was primarily from Bernita Jess, the woman who "coordinated" Aramaic studies for years in TWI. There are other threads here on GSC about all this... Dan Mc*&(%$, who is mentioned above, did not work on these projects while I was involved. He does have a degree from Unvi. of Chicago and focused on Aramaic, but did other textual research and was "stationed" at the Emporia campus, not HQ where these projects were done. The other people besides me who did work on the Aramaic projects are people I'm not sure want their identies mentioned here. They had degrees and training in Syriac from the Univ. of Chicago. The translation involved in this lawsuit, as far as I know (it was completed after I resigned from the Research Team at HQ in 1986), was not plagiarized. From what I've seen on the Internet at various sites, it is respected as a decent research tool for those interested in such things. Cheers!

This is a sad commentary, but a common one in fundamentalism. These groups claim to have the only truth. It's hard to admit you might not. I know. I was just like the friend you described until one day I cracked open. Check out www.TED.com for quick 3 minute talks on the subject by Karen Armstrong. Just type her name in the Search field. You might be surprised at what you discover. Good night and good luck.

From vpw's 6 pg. letter to the Corps dated October 20, 1978: "They got seriously involved and "hooked" into a subject known as eschatology, which is far too advanced for their abilities in research at this time." fyi - For those interested, here's some info from http://www.religioustolerance.org/millenni.htm "Eschatology is a Christian term that means the study of the end of history from a religious perspective. Probably more obscure theological text has been written on this topic than on any other belief in Christendom. The Bible contains many prophecies about the future. The Christian Scriptures (New Testament) in particular talks extensively about the return of Jesus Christ to this earth. This is usually called his "second coming," or "parousia." The Gospel of Matthew, Chapter 24, is devoted to this topic, as is much of the book of Revelation, and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18." IMO, although vpw went ahead and later invited some of us to be on the team, the clamp down from this episode had lasting effects...

M&A as a term didn't get used when I was involved 1970-1987, but the practice sure was in place. After I left, I first heard the term in 1998 from someone who would know about it. *************** “I say that religion isn’t about believing things. It’s ethical alchemy. It’s about behaving in a way that changes you, that gives you intimations of holiness and sacredness.” Karen Armstrong, authority on comparative religions

Karen Armstrong’s Wish “I wish that you would help with the creation, launch and propagation of a Charter for Compassion, crafted by a group of leading inspirational thinkers from the three Abrahamic traditions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam and based on the fundamental principles of universal justice and respect.”

Happy belated b/day ex10. Many happy wishes to you for a great year ahead. Love and hugs, penworks

Happy belated birthday, Paw. Hope you enjoyed it! Many good wishes for your continued health and happiness and many many thanks for helping us all here at Greasespot by providing this site! Cheers! penworks

Hi there everyone. Boy, I ask one little question and boom. Anyhow, I figured I'd chime in since I feel a little bit responsible for starting all these murmurings and disputings (that comment is for the twi loyals who read here.) Granted, I've paid lots of $ for information about the Bible over the years, including the PFAL class. I've paid LOTS of money to learn about the history of the Bible, for instance, which has only enriched my understanding and prompted me to ask more questions. What concerns me about paying for classes or books that are mostly propaganda intended to indoctrinate and often intimidate the students is that the claims made in them are to benefit the people making the claims, not the students. The information - or rather propaganda - is often used as a way to strong-arm the hearers into giving money, commitment, time, love, etc. solely to the group providing the class or book. IMO this is anti-education. It does not promote healthy questioning and growth in the student. To me real education lies in helping the student learn to think, to develop his or her own talents, and in doing so, add to the grand conversation and development of "civilization." But consider the source of these comments: A person who has a liberal arts education and has often been told she reads, thinks, and talks too much. Cheers!

I love this quote, WW. From what I've observed over the years it seems people don't speak up and/or aren't willing to, regardless of the kind of group -- religious or political or even in business --until they are directly negatively affected. It usually has to get personal. When it is, they know for themselves without a doubt that something is wrong and are willing to take a risk on their own behalf. Otherwise, we like the status quo usually. But I'm no psychologist... It was true for me ...it took a personal experience to pry me out of my "tunnel vision" before I left twi. Until then, I did not inquire as to why others "left" or "tripped out." I accepted the party line that they were decieved or possessed. I'm ashamed of that. Then it was my turn, then I found myself in a position of thinking something was unjust. Then it was worth fighting for myself and what I thought was good. Peace. And Happy Thanksgiving to all! Penworks

I agree Karl does do a good job with that. And I like your recounting of the often-heard: "...infamous "there's gotta be a text that says such-and-such" statements, bending definitions, out-of-context interpretations." I call that scriptural gymnastics which is used to prove whatever you want. IMO, the term "research" was defined in twi according to what vpw believed, for the most part, and whatever he thought should be "ackrit" (that's a literal translation according to usage of the word "accurate"). From what I've seen, most fundamentalists who try and prove inerrancy do this, too, to one degree or another. IMO inerrancy is an erroneous way to approach the texts in between those 2 covers. But that's another topic... Cheers!

WordWolf: That's interesting, considering he did a 2-part taped teaching at one point to try to insert the athletic terminology into Ephesians 6. Yes, it IS interesting. They were each doing their own thing in their own way. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree...

Yes they were.

Just to chime in a little as one who was at HQ during the time prior to and during the first few productions, and I was on the Research Team then to boot. LCM never, I repeat never, checked any of his so-called "research" he said went into that production with anyone I know of on the team at that time, including Walter Cummins, the head of the Research Department. Not that it would've made much difference, IMO. Anyhow, we were on "the other side of the hall" literally and figuratively. Whew. Some of us wanted no part of what he was doing. Some of us did more than roll our eyes about it. It was VERY strange being there at that time...

This thread raises an old issue for me. In 1985 I went on the Bible Lands Tour with twi followers. At the time I was on the Research Team. I remember on the boat ride we took across the "Sea of Galilee," I wondered about the difference between what an organization like ours was doing, really, and what Jesus did back in his time. Were we really doing something good like he probably did? Christ certainly didn't run an organization like ours, if the gospels are any reflection of what went on. What do we think we're doing with such a set up like ours? I didn't have the nerve then to voice my growing doubts about running a so-called Christian ministry in the 20th century largely based on what Paul sort of did, not what Jesus did. What is the real need for any group like twi in the world? What is the point of making money off of a bible class? Who is benefiting?

Oakspear has raised a serious point - about other people thinking they have the "right" to pry into your business. I happen to think it is important to ask ourselves some questions like: 1) Just what is the point of allowing anyone to pry into your life under the guise of being your "spiritual leader?" 2) Who do they think they are? 3) By what authority do they act? 4) Why would you allow that type of control over you? Make no mistake. There is no authority but your own that allows another to do that, at least in this country. Peace, Penworks