penworks

I don't know about DWBH, but count me in as curious about when you were "in" TWI. And whether you are "in" an offshoot. Just curious. My cats taught me to be curious. I blame them.

Oh, thanks chockfull, for the Lulu idea. Yes, they are good. I think our old friend C&*istian Abr***m used it to publish his two books. One is, The Secret Curse Surrenders. Loved that. But prepare yourself for a wild ride into Indiana Campus-land... Anyway, I may go that route. There are a few irons in the fire. Cheers, Pen

Yeah, Victor Bernard. Yikes. This talk show on YouTube really stirred things up. Let's hope it got some viewers thinking... I mentioned VB in a blog post recently. http://charleneedge....flage-of-cults/

Steve mentioned the problem of "the artificial language we used to distinguish ourselves from outsiders." I like that point. Identify that artificial language (I call jargon) and you're half way out of TWI. The other half of the way out is to break the habits (behavior) that issued from that false identity built by the jargon. Like a house of cards, one flick of the finger and it all begins to fall. Also kick the habit or the compulsive feeling that you have to preach that artificial language. At this point, I'm referring to the evangelism of offshoot TWI folks who have not stopped to examine their jargon. What would happen if they just sat down and thought about the implications of what they are perpetrating? Does it promote bigotry or expose it? I know many TWI offshoot leaders from way back. If any of you are reading this, may I suggest taking some time off from promoting second-hand stuff from TWI and quietly examining what it means. Ask yourself, is this the kind of world I want to be a part of...one that pits people against each other using religious beliefs? Anyhow, perfectly happy people run the offshoots, and they feel they are fulfilling what they're supposed to do on the planet. But maybe, just maybe they might admit to a tiny doubt about that. Maybe they'll ask themselves, What's the worst that can happen if one of those teeny doubts turns out to be true? Change is possible. But like getting old, it ain't for sissies.

Oh man, this made me weep. So happy to be here with such a brave person as yourself...and so many others. Cheers to you, Pen

Well, I don't know about the rest of you from my "generation of TWI followers" but I feel sick about the lack of adult responsibility that Dana's story brings to light. I keep thinking about it over and over. IMO every parent who dumped TWI dogma and TWI-style behavior, i.e. denigrating others of different beliefs among other gross things, on their kids, is responsible for helping their children recover from the bigotry. I don't see any attempt by the minister who did the memorial service for Dana's father taking any responsibility to help Dana. There is much trouble, with a capital T. People like Dana's mother may not have the strength or understanding yet, to instruct her children. Well, I hope we welcome her here if she ever arrives, and that we don't throw stones at her. Weren't some of us in the same boat of denial as she was while we were enraptured with TWI? So, I wonder how the GSC community can fill the gap of offering informed -- informed! -- counsel for this next generation of kids damaged to one degree or another by the behavior of their brainwashed parents? Are we offering that here, or do we argue back and forth about man-made dogmas, out-of-context Bible verses, and worn out plagiarized interpretations of Scripture masquerading as truth? If we keep dragging the kind of Christianity that the apostle Paul invented into every conversation we will never unwrap ourselves from our problems. I don't care who we are, have we said to our children in the privacy of our own homes, "I'm deeply sorry I fed you the bigotry of TWI, which in large measure is based not only on VPW's craziness, but also on St. Paul's brand of Christianity, yes, ohmygod, just read the verses where he turned people over to Satan for disagreeing with him. Can we say, "I will get myself educated about what happened to me in Wierwille's cult, and I will try and share what I've learned with my child." Will more children (now adults with their own children, like Dana) have to come here among strangers to learn the truth about what happened in their parents' lives? I would be at the very least embarrassed, but more like stricken with guilt, if my daughter had to learn all this truth which is largely terrible dirt about TWI, from other people, not from her own mother. And oh yeah, have I owned up to my part in all the past crap? Have I tried to make amends? I realize I am probably preaching to the choir tonight. But I guess sometimes choir members are the only ones around to listen... Penworks

That was a great use of free time. Novels! I had no idea they had any out there in CO.

I was just getting ready to type a similar reply, but Waysider responded first. Ditto. One question, maybe I missed this, but when were you involved in TWI, Bolshevik?

Thanks for explaining the situation so clearly. It really does shed light on how some of us didn't recognize the scarlet flags for what they were, even though they were flying all around . When you're focused on some things over here, you can't pay attention to other things over there, much less recognize that distant blurry picture for what it is out the corner of your eye.

I was married in The Way, too. Married a fellow 2nd Corps, had a baby, and stayed in the marriage despite several separations over the years. Three or so years after we left TWI, we divorced. While in TWI, as a wife I took "stand by your man no matter what" to the limit. To do that, I was in denial about my own sense of what I wanted and needed most of the time. Denial, more than anything, ran my life. I had given up what some call "agency" which could have helped me steer my life onto a better path. Married women were not the same as single women in the eyes of God, evidently. Wierwille used a diagram to show where the married woman stood with God. He used a 90-degree triangle to illustrate God at the top corner and the line that dropped below it led to the husband. The bottom line of the triangle, from the husband, led over to the right where the wife was designated. So the idea was that the wife was off to the side. She "went through" the husband to get to God. But the slanted line from her up and over to God was "direct" too, only not as direct as the husband's. At least that was my understanding. Does anyone else remember this ridiculous-ness?

I sure hope not! But we will do our best to deter them from happening...

Okay. I think I got it. Sometimes the truth stinks and yet we ache to know it...and often we need to for our own sanity and healing process. I hope that this thread, in response to Dana Fort's heartbreaking story, sheds more light on things, especially for her, since she started questioning the truthfulness of the whitewashed history of TWI she grew up with. It is difficult, I know, to have to dredge this crappola out of the shed and into the sunshine for newbies like Dana who never heard any of this...I appreciate the energy it took for you, DWBH, to write this up, down, and sideways. It is draining. It is sickening to have to think about it all again. Go take a break and breathe long yoga breaths. That's what I do... Cheers, Penworks :blink:/>/> PS - If I were the website creator for TWI, I wouldn't mention his name, either.

Hello. I'd like to step in and remind readers that some of us here are agnostics (I am) or atheists or whatever else who feel a moral obligation to speak up on topics pertaining to TWI and on our experiences in the group. We many not be Christians any more, but we have some perspectives that can help people decide whether to join The Way or get out of it, or stay away from offshoot groups who say they've fixed Way problems so their spin-off is better. In my view, these spin-off groups are still perpetuating fundamentalism and cult-ish attitudes of "my interpretation of the Bible is right, yours is not." DWBH and I share that moral compass that points us in the direction of speaking up, so do many others here. Calling out TWI policies and actions, and calling out former "public" leaders from the group who wielded their influence and caused harm, is part of a whistleblower's responsibility. Any of the offshoot leaders, etc., or staff at HQ are welcome to come here and debate, as I understand it. Part of what I do, as it has evolved, has also been to interpret to the outside world (my friends who never heard of The Way and want to understand me) just what the heck we're talking about at this site (as in website) and our journeys as former-Way followers trying to recover. One problem I face while "interpreting" is understanding where TWI "is at" these days at headquarters regarding this specific issue: Is their reluctance to put VPW's name on their website a court-ordered decision? A choice made from shame? A choice made...why? Last month I wrote a letter to the Way Information Center, which is how you contact The Way these days, and asked that question. I sent the letter certified mail. No one has replied...yet. I thought it was only fair to give them a chance to say something about that. I am considering writing an article about the glaring absence of VPW from the website of the cult he started. So, DWBH, I need a little more help. Could you clarify your view on the reason they don't mention VPW on their site? You left me with the impression they would be shooting themselves in the foot because so many people know about VP and LCM delinquency (understatement) issues that it makes the current iteration of The Way in New Knoxville want to disassociate from those men. The site says the group was founded in 1942. What is an outsider to make of a site that does not credit their founder or praise him like they used to? It is clear from other internet sites that VPW started The Way. It takes 2 seconds to discover that fact. What is up at HQ? Really. I'd like some non-insider jargon to explain this to people who, for instance, are reading my blog. Thanks, Penworks

It was a catch-22 situation. We should love the untouchables like Christ did, yet deny any inner wisdom we had about protecting ourselves because the Bible said we were more than conquerors and should fear nothing. I'd like to know about this, too, if it is not a secret that DWBH can reveal that might jeopardize his identity to outsiders...or insiders...or whomever...

A few thoughts... This topic of grunt work in service to VP's agenda is vital to understanding his power of persuasion. Thanks for bringing up the topic...hospitality, a good quality, was made into a grind for many of us. Everything in the house had to be spic n' span before fellowships. I remember arriving in L.A. after graduating from the 2nd Corps. My fulltime job was keeping our apartment (I had just married another 2nd Corps person) in showcase-style for meeting after meeting. I loved the believers, but the cleaning thing, geez....but I'd learned amazing cleaning skills in the Corps. Cleaning should have been one of the Corps principles for we surely attained the goal of being experts at it. As for opening my home, more than the expenses of running a fellowship, I think there is no price tag I can put on the risks we took by having strangers in our house, especially when our baby came along... I think of the sexism of "the refreshments lady," mentioned above. That seemed like such a minor task but it was not. I don't remember a "refreshments guy," but there probably was somewhere in some WOW family... So what do TWI representatives have to say about all the risks we took to build the empire of $64,791,485 (million) in assets listed on their 2013 tax return? Thank you? There is a 147-acre farm on the outskirts of New Knoxville, Ohio, owned by a non-profit organization that pays no taxes. That tax money could help the community in which it exists. If religion is supposed to help you be a better person, how is TWI doing that? I guess the anonymous testimonies on the TWI web site are meant to be convincing, but these days, I suspect that most readers on the internet doubt the value of such flattering quotes attributed to no one. There is not one word about Wierwille on their website, either. Very interesting...why not give credit to their mighty man of god? Peace, Penworks

Many thanks for taking the time to respond like this and include the valuable info on developmental stages. Bingo. That tender age window is what made many of us so vulnerable to VPW and his indoctrination. I think those of us in The Corps were probably changed more and in worse ways than anyone associated with TWI. Ever. Last thought for now: I have heard that counselors these days evidently shy away from using the term "arrested development" to describe what you described above so well, but I think that term is very useful. Grow up and think for yourself, was my mantra after leaving TWI. It pushed me to examine, think, and think about what I was thinking. That's one reason I like it here. People try to think about what they are thinking and decide whether it's good or not, bigoted or not, loving or not, true or not. Cheers and thanks for all the insights. You guys are wonderful, Penworks

You may not have been altered much while immersed in TWI, but I know I was. I remember sneaking off to St. Mary's library while I was working at TWI headquarters in 1986 and reading "The Mind Benders" by Jack N. Sparks. It was first published in 1977. The book blew my mind. :-) I saw myself on some of the pages. In Part III of the book, there's a chapter called "An Introduction to The Way, International." On page 214, there's a section called Behavior Modification. It reads in part: "Slowly the behavior of the devotee of The Way changes. He begins to act almost as he were becoming another personality. He isn't. It's just that another personality is dominating him." Well, those of us here know who that personality was at that time: VPW himself. If you'd like to read part of my story, here's a recent blog post. http://charleneedge....identity-theft/ I welcome your comments about this post, either at the end of the post or here at GSC. What do you think happened to your identity? Cheers, Penworks

This topic is one I've thought about often since leaving TWI in 1987, and what I think is not very flattering to VPW or to organized religion. I was in the second Corps which graduated in 1973, and I married a second Corps man. The 10 second Corps men were ordained in 1974 after one year of experience on the field. Later, when the third Corps (men and some women) were going to be ordained, VPW wrote a letter to the second Corps women, the married and the unmarried, and asked us whether we, too, felt we wanted to accept the ordination status. Some women did, I did not. I told VPW that my husband's ordination was sufficient...I was his helpmeet. Ah yes, the dutiful wife... I no longer subscribe to Christianity, so that colors my views considerably, I know. I view the ordination phenomenon from a distance now, so like the outsider that I am, I wonder why the procedure is necessary at all. I think it plays into the hierarchical structure of organized spirituality that lauds one person above another. I believe in equal access. I think everyone is responsible for their own "spiritual" lives, and having ordained ministers around weakens that ability, makes people think they NEED a clergyman to be their spiritual overseer, to be their spiritual leader, to tell them what is right. Really? As far as I understand ordinations, the Apostle Paul began the tradition, and since I consider him, well, very sincere but a man who formed his own religion believing he was doing it the way his "God" wanted him to, I think ordinations feed into a hierarchical structure and create results that are not useful to people, like the belief that an ordained person is more valuable to "God," or more "spiritual" etc. Example. Last year I attended a dinner party with about ten other people. The host couple invited their neighbor (and wife), who was also their church minister. We were all sitting around the living room eating appetizers etc. and talking like peers when suddenly, right before we got up to eat, the hostess said the neighbor was going to pray. Suddenly a hierarchical atmosphere appeared out of nowhere like a stray cloud! What I am NOT saying: I am not saying that ordained people do not genuinely love others, help them (like sitting up all night with someone suicidal), etc. but un-ordained people do those things, too. And some ordained people should not do them. Many times they should send people to mental health counselors. I am not saying we should not seek counsel from people wiser than ourselves on a given subject in life. But how do we designate that wisdom? I am not disrespecting people who were/are ordained in TWI. I know many of them and they are good people. I'm just expressing my opinion -- that the ritual of ordination conducted by VPW in TWI was a show performed to shore-up VPW's ego, and possibly the ego of some of his clergy. I said SOME not ALL. I think VPW wanted to compete with Billy Graham, Oral Roberts, etc, and denominations in general to make TWI look like a real ministry with real ministers. Since I now view VPW as a fraud, I have difficulty valuing his ordinations. Were they simply trappings to make his cult appear respectable? Let me repeat, my opinions are not meant to disparage the people who are/were ordained. They each have their own conscience to deal with on this. I just question the value of the whole process, whether it is inside or outside of TWI. As for what we were told ordination was - it was explained something like: it was making publically known what was already spiritually "operating" in the person, what that person's God-given ministries were, described something like "long-suits" or abilities they had more than other people did. Something like that...

This is one of my articles about TWI and its influence as a cult. I trust it will be useful to some readers here. The Camouflage of Cults

I admire Dana's courage in writing her story and posting it here. She's a truth seeker and teller. We need more of them here.

Thanks, WordWolf. This is important info!

I found this excellent article about cults. Cult Attraction is Not a Problem of Logic

Alexandra Stein, PhD wrote this excellent article: Cult attraction is not a problem of logic I think it's VERY good. She has an entire website devoted to her investigation into the cult phenomena.

If VPW had been open to healthy criticism there would not have been a TWI. Remember, he began TWI because, as I understand it, he could not get along well with others (understatement) in his denomination. I think that's because he was what sociologists call a charismatic authoritarian. They aren't usually open to much discussion. :-)