penworks

And their rejection of you surprises you?

If I could put these two sentences in a flashing neon sign, I would. Speaking from experience, this lies at the heart of fanaticism.

Yes, the Greek word "pistis" as VPW taught it presented problems, although I don't have the details of why or how at my fingertips. I do remember this issue coming up while I was on the research team 84-86 at HQ. I suggested that perhaps someone in the graduating corps might do a research paper on "pistis" (a paper like that was required to graduate), but I was told no, no, no, that topic is a problem, i.e. certain team members knew "we" could not substantiate what VPW taught about it. Maybe VP "borrowed" his teachings about faith/believing from some other man's book/teachings. He was known for doing that.

Well put. Wierwille had his own idea of what "doing biblical research" meant (including plagiarism, which is stealing), and it was different than how people in academia defined it. A clash was bound to happen. It did. Many times. In fact, it had happened long before this incident. Other people had left TWI before this because of uncovering VP's plagiarism, narrow-mindedness, etc. etc. I can't cite names due to privacy issues, but I can tell you they exist. Some were in the Corps, some were not.

Yes, I remember that letter. Initially, it frightened me into remaining loyal to TWI. I still have that letter today, as well as many others from VPW, since I was a Second Corps grad (graduated in 1973). Perhaps if the letter had been more widely known, more people would have left TWI back then, but who knows? I knew of those three men. I was on the biblical research team at HQ 1984 - 1986. After escaping HQ in 1987, I began the long journey of writing my story. I quote that letter in my memoir: Undertow: My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International. Target publication date: January 2017.

Thanks for providing the link!

Good morning, I would have chimed in earlier but I've been sick. Nothing serious. For any new visitors to this site, I want to say that DWBH is an extremely important voice on TWI inner workings, big and small. The facts he has that back up his assertions are first-hand experiences. I knew him personally. For one thing, we were both at HQ at a critical time, 1986, when that scathing and disruptive (understatement) so-called Passing of a Patriarch letter was written and read by Chr*s G**r. My heartfelt suggestion is for visitors (and anyone who has not heard it) is to listen to the GSC radio show on this website titled, Through the Fog. I think it will give you some idea of the evil that occurred. DWBH mentioned a book I am writing, Undertow, so I want to let you know it is near publication. When it's ready, GSC folks will be one of the first groups to know. A side note: Yesterday the world lost one of the most important memory keepers and voices on human rights abuse (understatement), one that expressed moral outrage in a way we could embrace... Elie Wiesel. https://www.washingt...omepage%2Fstory I would like to thank GSC for providing a place where we can express moral outrage over the spiritual, emotional, mental, and sexual abuse perpetrated by "spiritual" leaders we trusted. Hopefully, our voices can make a difference in this world. That's the point, right? To inform and help. To shed light, understanding, and healing. That, by the way, is why I wrote my book. Cheers, Penworks, a.k.a. Charlene

As a woman in the 2nd Corps, I was offered this opportunity but declined it because I was married to a 2nd Corps man who Wierwille had already ordained and that "was good enough for me."

I have many of these in my own files at home in hardcopy, the originals that were mailed to us Corps people. It is highly probable VPW had help writing them, just as he had an assistant, Allis*n Hean*y, write his articles titled, By The Way, that were published in the St. Mary's Evening Leader newspaper during the 1970s and 1980s.

I just discovered that someone hosts a website of TWI information, including letters Victor Paul Wierwille wrote to Way Corps members during the 1970s and 1980s. I received those letters and have kept many of them in my own files. To read them yourself, visit: https://sites.google.com/site/corpsnewsletters/system/app/pages/subPages?path=/home

Hi, I'm writing this to anyone considering whether to break ties with TWI: please keep reading threads like this at this website. The Way sub-culture that Skyrider describes is real. It was real for hundreds of us, especially those of us in the Way Corps who gave everything to Wierwille's perverted, narcissistic, dangerous-thinking goal of Word over the world. During my 17-year experience in TWI, I came to see (especially while on the research team) that there was no "Word" as VPW described it and no realistic way to "move it over" the entire world. That goal was an hallucination that emanated from a sick mind full of dangerous ideas. Think about it. The Way ministry running the world! VPW's teachings dominating everyone's thoughts? Plagiarized books with VP's name on them for sale in every town? Yikes! The idea that we knew more of "the Word" than anyone else on the planet was very silly indeed. (that's an understatement in case you're wondering). Besides, who wants to live in a world where everyone thinks and behaves the exact same way? That is the farthest thing from democracy that there is! That's a nightmarish world of science fiction. So, TWIexit as soon as possible. You'll be glad you did, no matter how difficult exiting might be for you. You can find support here. You can search for resources at places like the International Cultic Studies Association. Check out some of these videos: https://www.youtube....1HtMvoa8kRcLcig Cheers, Penworks

That quote from the newsletter is more than sad. I knew the author of it long ago at ECU. Seeds of this thinking were planted then. I dare say they were fed and watered by VPW himself. Without the VPW influence, I wonder where JAL would be today? Sad, really sad ...

So, to the people who defend VP having bodyguards for self protection, like the Pope has (a Corps grad actually told me this recently when she accused me of being "angry" on one of my website posts) I guess I will refer them to this-here-post. Thanks for spelling this out!

Hi BlueCord, I'm just chiming in to welcome you to this most rambunctious- in- the- best- way group of people around. Have no doubt. You are on the right track to disassociate yourself with TWI. Life outside is great, we have civil rights here, we can grow and follow our hearts. You can too. I trust you and your wife can leave without any big uproar. Respect others and they will respect you. That is not to say you agree with them or want to fellowship with them. It means by their behavior you decide it is best for you to go elsewhere. This is all an understatement. What I want to say its, Run, BlueCord, Run! A little about me (some of this may come in handy). I left in 87. It felt like an escape to me because of the terrible paranoia at HQ. I was in the 2nd Corps with LCM, I was married to a clergyman, I was a mother, I had been a researcher on the Aramaic project, and I had been loyal for 17 years. Boom. My personal crisis came while on the research team and then VP died and then Geer swooped in, and then and then and then.... long story short, I lost all but a couple of friends, but the new life I gained was more than worth it. You find that you can not only survive but thrive if you just remember TWI does not define who you are, nor does their propaganda. Cheers to your courage. Thanks for visiting us. I hope you find helpful info and abundant empathy here. Let me know if I can help answer any questions you might have, especially about the research dept. Just curious, do they still have a so-called research department any more? All the best, Charlene Edge

Hi TLC, Sure wish I'd had some other kind of education about the Scriptures like you did before getting involved in TWI. That education might have steered me away from PFAL. I hope my story, Affinity for Windows, that Rocky pointed out, is interesting to you. The team was a mix, our jobs were varied, but in the end, to my knowledge, nothing that contradicted VPW's teachings got published.

Hi GreaseSpotters. Actually, faithful grads and Way leaders encouraged lots of us at the ECU fellowship (in Greenville, NC) during 1970s to buy concordances and lexicons to study THE WORD. We were told to check out what Wierwille taught for ourselves. What a concept. The problem was we couldn't. We were too ignorant and too swept up into adoration of the "MOG" to question or think or understand his fast talking sales pitch. Also, what the leaders left out of the "tools for researching" was any consideration of the Bible as an anthology written by different people. The Bible was THE WORD OF GOD authored by God Himself and it had to fit together without contradictions. End of discussion. The Bible was not recognized for the great literature it is, only for it being "authored by God" and being the manual on how to be a human being, providing the ONLY source of truth in the whole world. With that attitude, I learned nothing outside of the Bible that could have helped me UNDERSTAND the Bible. That's what fundamentalism does. So, I ended up in the so-called research department having to submit to what VPW said the Bible said, all the while gradually discovering he was not always right. Ask me anything you'd like to know about the "research team" at HQ from 1970 to 1987. I'll do my best to answer. So back to the topic of this thread: submission. Yes, many of us submitted to the authority of VPW and other top leaders. Why? Each of us has to sort that out. I do not think we were all brainwashed. I think each of us probably weighted in at different places on scales of suggestibility and vulnerability. I know some people who NEVER thought they were manipulated into submission, that they made their own decisions in TWI. Others were more pliable. There is no one size fits all. You know, I think there is something beautiful about being submissive to the right things. Like to someone else who has mastered a skill I want to learn. Master artists teach apprentices and those apprentices learn because of their humility and submission to the master who's spent his or her life mastering the art. But that is a topic for another day and probably another kind of website! Cheers, Penworks

I could not agree more. As a person who had first-hand experience with VPW, this description fits like "a hand in a glove."

I think this is an important topic. Thanks for bringing it up. Disclosure: I am a grad of the 2nd Corps who knew Wierwille personally. I was a limb leader's wife for a time. I was on the research team, too. From my experience in the cult, and from knowing a variety of people in it over the years, I'd say victim/perpetrator is pretty black and white, but probably those are useful words to apply as we attempt to clarify who bears responsibility for the darkness perpetrated by the system known as TWI. But as Oakspear says, applying the correct label correctly, if we chose to do it, is complicated. People varied in level of responsibility and attitudes and intentions. That said, I feel some measure of guilt about having been someone who sang TWI's praises, keeping myself bundled up in a cloud of denial, thinking I was promoting the greatest ministry on earth. To make amends, I do what I can .... moral outrage is appropriate, not only for outsiders looking in, but as a response from those of us who left.

Since this topic is called, Cults, Cults. Everywhere, I thought I'd include a link to the recent issue of ICSA's journal with the lead article "The Challenge of Defining Cult." International Cultic Studies journal - new issue Cheers.

Right. It's the action that gets evaluated by the law, not the belief behind it, right? If anyone's interested there's a book called, Cults, Culture and the Law: Perspectives on New Religious Movements, edited by Thomas Robbins, WIlliam C. Shepherd, and James McBride. Scholars Press, Chico, CA. It's put out by the American Academy of Religious Studies in Religion. TWI is mentioned in this book on pg. 111 in the chapter titled, "Cults and Conversion: The Case for Informed Consent" by Richard Delgado. Here is a little bit from it: "Values of self-determination already play a significant role in the debate about religious cultism. On a rhetorical level, defenders of these groups [cults] ask why young adults should not be free to join whatever religious organizations they desire. Opponents respond that free choice is exactly what these groups deny. Constitutional analysis of state intervention raises consent issues, as do tort and criminal actions brought by cult members after unsuccessful deprogrammings, and suits by ex-members against cult leaders for unlawful imprisonment, slavery, intentional infliction of emotional distress, and fraud." Delgado goes on to advocate for a consent agreement when a person joins a group, meaning the group gives full disclosure about its intentions, beliefs, etc. and the new recruit agrees to it. I know I laughed out loud when I read this article because it seems to me that groups like "cults" do not reveal their true nature right off the bat. Usually it is camouflaged by statements like, "we do biblical research" while in the back room they have people pretending to do that, or at least doing something they CALL biblical research as defined by the cult. What do you all think? Do you think a group could even be required by law to deliver a consent form for recruits to sign? And what if a recruit signed it? What exactly would that mean for that person's life?

Rocky, I agree that the "do surgery on Waybrain" section was helpful. Specific insider language helped created Wayworld. Identifying how VPW redefined words and concepts to suit his goals was a huge part of my recovery. Examples include "legal." That did not mean what it normally means in society: i.e. abiding by the law of the land. In Wayworld, it meant the law of the Old Testament. So because VPW touted we were "free in Christ," so anyone who abided by the 10 commandments, for instance, was "legal" or "legalistic." Further, they were "living according to the wrong administration." since VPW said we were living in the "grace administration." These divisions are one way that bible teachers use to account for what most readers see as contradictions in the Bible. VPW got that "administration" theory (also called dispensationalism) from a bunch of others like Bullinger and John Nelson Darby , an Anglo-Irish Bible teacher from the 1800s. I digress ... I think John Juedes is amazing in that he's stuck with analyzing The Way for so long and has provided so much helpful info to so many of us. I have thanked him for that. Hope ya'll have, too. What I would caution people about, however, is that he believes people leaving TWI should seek a Christian avenue for fellowship etc. That may be helpful and appropriate for some, but not all. That path is not necessarily the best for every single person who leaves TWI. Just sayin'. Cheers! Penworks

Ditto. As for the title of this thread, I would delete the word "spiritual" as the adjective for bully. Several other abrupt "defectors" include VPW's motorcoach driver, C*uck *cher. He was there one day and gone the next. I think that was in 1977 or so ... he left with the wife of one of the guys in Joyful Noise. Hush hush ...

Ditto. I think the good thing about this site John Juedes' has is that he identifies himself. Also, Karl Kahler's book is full of information well documented. Here's my two cents on this topic: I found references to The Way simply by going to public and college libraries and looking through books about cults or new religions, etc. and checking the Index in each book. It is time consuming, but hey, if you want to dig, you gotta get out a shovel and put some elbow grease into it, as my dad used to say ... One example was in a library in Amsterdam! Here's my blog post about finding Melton's book there: http://charleneedge....-library-treat/ Another one is a book from the AAR Studies in Religion 36 volume. The name is: Cults, Culture, and the Law: Perspectives on New Religious Movements. Published by Scholars Press, Chico, CA. 1985. Edited by Thomas Robbins, William C. Shepherd, and James McBride. The Way Int'l is cited on four different pages. A word of caution about using quotes from this site. Most posters here use a fake name, so to outsiders, sometimes that detracts from the veracity of the stories here. In other words, they could be ghost stories. I don't have that attitude because I was in the group and can pretty much tell if something is bogus (but not all the time, I'm sure), but without an insider's knowledge, outsiders would not be able to sniff things out so well. Maybe ... Good luck, Charlene

Seth, I read your comment under the article on the newspaper's site. I was sorry to read it. You said, "I absolutely hate those people, if they all died today I wouldn't shed a tear." When we say we hate people, it does not help our efforts here at GSC in raising awareness of TWI but I realize you were only speaking for yourself. IMO, hatefulness might be what TWI leaders are/were about. But it is not what I am about. And I don't think most greasespotters are into keeping hate in their hearts for anyone. But maybe I am wrong. I think hate breeds hate. We may not love TWI leaders who abused us and others, but hate is pretty strong stuff ... I shy away from it. But that's just me ...

Ditto, WordWolf.