Larry N Moore

By all means -- you should take care of the things going on in your personal life. You're absolutely right -- this stuff is petty in the grand scheme of things. Trying to confuse me doojable? In another page or two I'll probably forget what that subject was. I'll await your PM.

I can understand that. However, as you might see, doing so usually leads to a complete derail of a thread necessitating an Administrator having to splinter off those off-topic responses into a different thread. It must be frustrating to Pawtucket to have to do that. That and other readers having to sift through such nonsense to read where the original subject of the thread left off. Something to consider whenever you have an urge to respond to someone who you have very little respect for anyways. But -- oh well -- like I've heard so many times. "S**t happens."

Danny, I see you took my suggestion to heart. Good for you. I think a good place to start would be to closely consider verse 19 of chapter 2 of Genesis where it says: "And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it." This is what I was referring to in the other thread concerning Adam "working" prior to his expulsion from Eden. Physiologically, it's normal to perspire when you exert yourself. If we didn't the body would get overheated leading to possible death. Like I said previously, I can't imagine Adam not sweating prior to the "Fall." I'm not sure where you come up with the notion that the "devil" had many conversations with Eve prior to the temptation recorded in chapter three. I suppose it's possible. Not every detail of events that have occurred have been preserved for our info -- only that which we need.

You mean you're not "marked & avoided"? ;) Seriously, I think it's a wonderful idea -- any time you can get together with family and enjoy each other's company it's always a blessing. I hope it goes well for you. BTW -- I was just recently in Colorado (visiting my brother). If you have the chance you should go see "Garden of the Gods." It's awesome!

Bluzeman, I'll readily admit that my short-term memory isn't what it use to be BUT, I can easily remember that the subject of this off-shoot thread was splintered off the John Juedes thread because of this issue over the accusation that Oldieman calls people (VICTIMS) of bad experiences LIARS. In that thread you back-tracked on your question and yet here you are asking the same thing again. What's up with that?

Hammer, would you be trying to get pawtucket to splinter this thread into another off-shoot? Gosh! Now, I'm going to have to see where CG came into the picture. You rascal, you. ;)

Danny, I'm probably the guiltiest person on this board for side-tracking threads (or at least share much of the blame). It's rare that anyone ever objects because it's very simple to get it back on track if one really wanted to. But, yea, you're right -- this subject of Adam and Eve probably should have it's own thread. Would you be interested in jump-starting one? I'm sure I can say one or two things to contribute to it.

You may be right. It was over 30 years ago and I obviously don't remember a lot. There's a thing said about impressions and first impressions being the most important. There were some bad times as well as good times but my impression overall is -- I have no regrets for having been there.

I agree, for the most part, with you. What I question is -- If you have little respect for what someone else says, why would you even dignify their opinion with a response?

Thanks for the suggestion doojable. I sensed there was "history" between Oldiesman and other posters. I just didn't see what he's been accused of in this (now splintered) thread. I think that accusation should be retracted if support can't be provided for it. What WW provided, imo, didn't meet that level of acceptability.

Excellent idea. I was wondering if you had that feature on this board.

Bolshevik, methinks I'm going to have to read the Bible more often thanks to you. :) When it comes to the trees of "Life" and "Knowledge of good and evil" I think both are figurative. It's been awhile since I studied the subject so my understanding isn't what it once was. The verses you cited are interesting for a number of reasons. If I recall Adam "worked" prior to the "fall" so I'm not entirely sure no sweat was involved. One usually perspires when they do because it's natural for the body to cool itself via perspiration when one exerts energy. So verse 19 of chapter 3 doesn't make much sense to me unless it is emphasizing something else. What that may be I don't know or remember. I would have to agree with you that Adam & Eve weren't meat-eaters prior to their expulsion. Vegetarianism does seem to be a more healthier way to go. Don't know if I would make it as one though. I think certain animals just are suited (genetically) to eat meat. I don't recall anything in the Bible that disputes that. As far as what it says in Revelation -- well, I think that very well could just be emphasizing the peacefulness that will be found in the "new" Eden. It's a good way of making that point but, it's difficult to believe that it will be a literal fact. I guess we'll both have to wait to see though.

Your opinion (regarding my discernment ability) is noted. I would be more inclined to accept your opinion regarding Oldiesman IF you would actually provide the direct and exact quote where he called those who had BAD EXPERIENCES liars -- meaning they were lying about their bad experiences. Your response -- as it is -- is very wordy and whenever I see a lot of wordiness, when it's not necessary, I'm inclined to think some spin is taking place. I don't think you've done it intentionally but, rather you're just seeing things which aren't really there. But you could very easily prove me wrong by providing the exact phrase in the pages you cited which support your assertion that Oldiesman called VICTIMS of BAD EXPERIENCES liars. BTW -- I could never keep you on my ignore list. You're too interesting of a character for me to ignore -- for too long. :)

The author of the site you cited -- if I'm not mistaken -- disallows it because death, disease, etc. was the direct consequences of Adam's sin. I don't believe the Bible says anything about animals not dying from bloodshed and/or disease. In fact many animals spilled blood in order to live. If you think about recent history -- American -- Europeans introduced a lot of disease to Indians which they never knew of/experienced before. I personally believe that Adam's access to the "Tree of Life" is what protected him from diseases and such. Without that "tree" (whatever it was) I think Adam would have been just as susceptible to diseases. And we all know that Cain introduced bloodshed -- after Adam and Eve's expulsion from Eden. However, it's not unfathomable to think that if they weren't expelled and had Cain while in Eden that he still might have killed his brother. So I don't know why the author would think that the theory contradicts anything the Bible says. It is interesting to read how the theory originated. I'm not sure if those concepts were entirely foreign prior to Chalmers but, someone has to get the credit.

Seems like a good explanation for the theory. I haven't really digested everything on the page -- it looks and feels about the same as the one from the cite I mentioned. This statement . . . . . . I think isn't very much of an argument though. Part of the gap theory would allow for death, bloodshed, disease, and suffering prior to it and still not contradict what follows after the gap.

I believe the cite/book covers the geological (and fossil) phenomena quite well. It's been awhile since I read it but I think they believe the earth is only 6000 years+ old. Whether it is or not probably won't make much difference to those who are convinced one way or the other. I don't think the Bible was meant to substantiate scientific facts even though one will find some of them substantiated anyways.

You're welcome. If I recall (it's been awhile since I read the book) the authors are YECs. They make a strong case for it but, I wasn't exactly convinced. I don't see why the Earth couldn't have existed for eons of years and not contradict what the Bible says.

Oh, I remember very well learning how to take a REAL quick shower. Having to share one with a bunch of other guys (who all had to get ready for the day's events) led to a few arguments. You had just so much time to get it done. This must have changed after I left. I bet Mike T. had something to do with that call. :) I had my own personal living alarm clock. I believe his name was Eugene B. I always had a problem getting up in the ungodly time of the morning and so he would pour water over my head if I slept in too late. Funny thing about it though is one time I decided to just turn over and go back to sleep. That sorta upset him some when he realized that his little water sport game wasn't working anymore. I remember long days. On top of having to work a secular job and go to fellowship and classes (did you have the one with Art Linkletter?) we also had to do study time. See! I wasn't the only one who learned to ignore wake up call. I think we switched apartments every quarter or something. We also switched twig leaders around. The only ones who didn't switch were the married couples. There were one apartment housing them. I don't remember if any of them stayed on for another year -- and frankly I really can't remember who they were. I didn't associate with them that much. Usually I did all the parking for those events. That and setting up the chairs. To this day I will nudge a chair out of sequence just for the heck of it. ;)

That's a good point about a flood story being told by several cultures. I've often compared such to the old analogy I call "The Phone Call" where you hear some story from someone and then call someone else up to repeat it and then that person calls another who in turns calls another. Eventually the story gets changed so much that by the time it gets back to the original story teller it only slightly resembles it. The foundation of it stays the same but the characters and certain specific details have been changed. Anyways, for anyone who might be interested -- this cite . . . http://www.evolution-facts.org/Handbook%20TOC.htm . . . covers the flood (chapter 14), as well as, many other subjects related to Evolution vs. I.D. The book written from it is called "The Evolution Cruncher." I highly recommend it to those wanting to understand the issues better.

No, I believe the concept of FL evolved from "Way Homes" where a group of believers decided to live together in the same household. That concept probably evolved from the communal life of hippies since many during that time came from that background -- although I think Burton was a true-blue jock. I sometimes wondered if the man wasn't taking steroids. Anyways, I think D. Fugit came up with the inspiration for WOW.

WG, your memory is much better than mine. In reading through your post it stirred some of my own. One memory I vividly have is the time when I got very angry with Burton. During one of our "Fellow Laborers Night" meetings I spent the entire time staring at him with the meanest look I could muster. He avoided eye contact with me. I got what I wanted -- which was leave to go back home to visit my Grandmother who had come from Florida.

If I had the option of choosing my mother -- it would be a very difficult choice between you and the one I was born to. You do your daughters right and there is no such thing as bragging too much about them whenever you have the opportunity. Brag on!

OH! That explains some things. Did the Limb Leader also handle snakes when he spoke in tongues? ;)

Chatty, much of what you said in this thread I find myself nodding my head in agreement. IOW, you've made some very excellent points. This one . . . . . . especially stood out for me. I remember times (during the mid 70's) where I wished I knew less and loved more. It seemed the more I knew the less I loved people and for me that was one of the reasons why I chose to go out WOW. It was my prayer (and goal) that God would show me want I needed to love people more than I thought I was and should be. The "head-knowledge" just seemed to be getting in the way. Anyways, I love reading your posts.

Hammer, I'm sure you would make an interesting subject (specimen) to study. I think I would have loved to spend a year with you (in FL). :) Are you speaking of FL of Ohio or some other state. I vaguely recall Burton going to International HQ but, can't remember who replaced him at the Limb level.