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Larry N Moore

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Everything posted by Larry N Moore

  1. dooj, I'm sorry if I've offended you. Perhaps if I would of composed my response (to the brief list of beliefs you mentioned) in the form of questions it wouldn't have come across as being argumentative. One of things VP said in PFAL was: "Ephesians advises in chapter 6, "Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord . . ." It does not tell us to be strong in what a theologian may say or in what a Bible teacher may say. If the theologian says what The Word says, if the teacher says what The Word says, then you have to be strong in what they say because of The Word, not because of the men." When he said this I took it to mean that we weren't to be "strong" even in what he said unless what he said was an accurate interpretation. Even if it's true that VP did all the things he's accused of it doesn't negate what the Word says and if he said what the Word said then we should be strong in what he said. If I learned anything from PFAL that I want to hold onto it is that it doesn't matter what some theologian or what VPW says -- what matters is -- are they saying what the Word says and if in good conscience I believe they are then I should be "strong" in that. Now, get yourself off to work before you're docked some pay. :) And go in peace.
  2. Abi, if this is true then couldn't you say that God led people to TWI because that's where they needed to be at the time?
  3. THAT was some funny stuff! However, not intending to be nit-picking but, I suppose his comedy sketch wouldn't have the same impact if he got to whom 1 Corinthians was addressed to. He must have intercepted the letter that was written to specific Corinthians, not all of them. ;)
  4. I'm listening to what you're saying. If I misconstrued what you meant -- my apology. Have a great day dooj!
  5. I wouldn't. That's something I learned in the PFAL class. Didn't you?
  6. Oh, I see. Iow -- you're putting a stumbling block in the path of potential brothers and/or sisters under the notion that God will deliver them from it like He did with you. Sorta like testing God. Got it! Spend that money well. :)
  7. After reading skyrider's response I had to go somewhere before I had the opportunity to say what you said here. Throughout that rather lengthy "dog and pony show" I too saw it as a non-answer.
  8. 1 John 3: 1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. How often do you think about The Hope? And what do you think it means in verse three when it says we are purified even as he is pure?
  9. At risk of being accused of being your personal cheerleader ;) -- You're good! (I couldn't agree with you more).
  10. Tom, how long were you a member of TWI? During that time did you believe and agree with everything you were taught? If not, maybe you can use whatever method you used then in your current situation. I know when I was raising my family and my children would ask me a question concerning what TWI taught that I didn't agree with I was honest with them. But I emphasized that it's the heart and not the head you need to focus on.
  11. :blink: That sounds like a recipe for getting ate instead of eating.
  12. Why do I feel as though I dug myself a hole that Eyes will never let me climb out of? ;)
  13. Hey Dooj! I think someone just baked me a biscuit to go with my gravy. A little bit on the heavy side (I wonder if it would break glass) but digestible nonetheless. I wonder what color it will come out on the other side. ;)
  14. The trouble with you Sprawled is that you don't realize you never brought a "ball" to the "game" in the first place. You only brought a "bat". I have some extra Kleenex lying around that I'm not using. If you ask me real politely I'll gladly give them to you. ;) Oh. My mistake. I assumed that at some point in life you were a Christian.
  15. The following is another viewpoint on this subject. It's been so long (October 14, 2002) since I last read it that I forget who wrote it. I believe it was written by someone from a board I once participated on. If you want to skip through the whole article that's fine but I think his conclusion at the end is worth noting. What is atheism? (also some thoughts on theism and agnosticism) ________________________________________ The thoughts expressed below are mine. I haven't directly used any material as a source in writing this definitional essay although I should give credit to George Smith and the paper "Freethought Today" for the insights they provided when I read them over a year before writing this. I'm sure there are other sources that I have read in the past which have influenced the thoughts below, but they don't come to mind at the moment. ________________________________________ Some of the most poorly understood words are: theism, atheism, and agnosticism. In the following paragraphs, I will attempt to provide a definitional framework for the three words. I'm confident that many people who read this will still choose to define the words differently than I. The purpose of the definitions is not to establish some sort of absolute truth but to provide a working definition that at least I can point to and say, "this is what I think the definition is, and this is how I use these words". If you find the definitions useful, feel free to 'label' yourself using them and direct anyone to this site who doesn't know why you call yourself by one (or more) of these terms. Perhaps the biggest reason the above words are misunderstood is that theists tend to define atheism, atheists tend to define theism, and people who call themselves agnostics don't want to belong to either of the definitions the other two parties have given to each other. First I will begin with atheism, which will also be the main focus throughout since I think it is the most misunderstood and poorly defined of the three. At the above linked definition of "atheism" someone called R. Hall says, "Atheism is a ferocious system, that leaves nothing above us to excite awe, nor around us to awaken tenderness". This is just one example of a theist incorrectly defining atheism. Atheism is not a system (ferocious or otherwise), it says nothing about what is above us, it says nothing about tenderness, and atheists can be just as excited and awed about life as theists. The atheists I know and have read are, on average, more excited and awed by the wonders of life than theists. This statement is not intended to knock theists, but merely to point out that the above definition is a false generalization that has nothing to do with the 'real' definition of atheism. There are several other false definitions usually put on atheism by theists. Theists frequently claim (and if you don't believe me I can send you countless emails I have received from theists or you can read their definitions on the web for yourself) that atheists "claim to know there is no god", "are merely rebelling against a god that they really believe in", "think they can prove there is no god", "say there is no god so that they can be evil", "don't want to be accountable", etc. Although some atheists (and they are in the minority) may claim to know that there is no god, most atheists claim no such thing. Atheism is a "lack of belief in god" and nothing more. Those who claim to "know" there is no god are sometimes referred to as "strong atheists", but their thinking is as faulty as those who claim to know that there is a god. Atheists who don't go as far as claiming knowledge of no god can also be called "strong atheists". For instance, atheists who claim an affirmative belief that there is no god usually are also referred to as "strong atheists" even though they do not claim knowledge of such a thing. For now, let me just state that no one can know there is no god for the same reason that no one can know there is no Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, unicorn, or other such creature. Some may say that we can know that there are none of the above since we can trace through history where these characters were created and that the ideas about them have changed over the centuries. The same can also be said of god (except the history of god goes back a bit farther so it is more difficult to track with certainty) but for this arguments sake, let's say that such creatures, although there is a strong probability that they are fictional, can not be 100% positively proven unreal for the basic reason that the entire universe would need to be explored to positively assert the non-existence of such a hypothetical being. If the theist attempts to define their god however, that specific god can be disproven through the use of logic and reason. In these cases, an atheist can accurately state that they know that the god described does not exist. To summarize, atheism is a lack of belief in god. Basic atheism (of the non-strong variety) on its own does not positively assert anything regardless of what some atheists may say or think and regardless of what theists frequently define as atheism. Now let's move on to theism briefly. Theism is simply the opposite of atheism. A good definition of theism is "a positive assertion that god does exist". Whatever this god may be to the theist is irrelevant to the definition of theism as a word on its own. Based on these two definitions, everyone is either a theist or an atheist. Either you positively assert that there is a god or you lack such a positive assertion. There is no middle ground--which brings us to our third word of agnosticism. When you break down the word agnostic, you come up with a term meaning "without knowledge" or "unknowable". The word agnostic isn't a very old word. Despite this fact, T.H. Huxley, who created the term, used it to mean our modern definition of 'scientist' more than anything else. The word has changed meaning over the years, and people have tended to use the term as a sort of middle ground between atheism and theism. In my opinion, such a middle ground doesn't exist. One either asserts that there is a god or they lack such an assertion. Agnostics have labeled themselves as such because they don't understand the definition of atheism or because they have heard only about the 'strong atheists' who do make a positive assertion that there is no god and they don't personally hold such a strong assertion. My definition of agnostic is probably different from any that you have previously heard. My (modern) definition is that virtually everyone is an agnostic. That's right, almost everyone is either an agnostic/atheist or they are an agnostic/theist because no one can 'know' god. Atheists probably don't have a problem with this definition, but I'd be willing to bet that many theists who are reading this don't appreciate being labeled an agnostic. The reason I claim that no one can know god is this. Many who believe in god don't claim any first hand knowledge. They will tell you that their belief comes from feelings, reliance on scripture, or their wanting to believe. Those people are fairly easy to rule out as non-agnostics as they really don't assert knowledge in the first place. They can readily be dubbed agnostics because they are without knowledge of their belief. Their belief is simply a belief and nothing more. The slightly-more-difficult-to-dub agnostic variety of theists are those that claim first hand knowledge. The main problem with these people is this first hand knowledge they assert is always based on personal experience rather than any sort of tangible proof or external evidence. Some claim to converse with, see, or otherwise personally experience god. The issue with these claims, and my reason for still labeling these people as agnostics, is that all of their personal experiences, 1) more or less contradict the personal experiences of others who claim this same 'knowledge' and 2) can't be shown to others (especially skeptics, scientists, or others who want to see proof). Knowledge in any item isn't something based solely on personal experience. If I have a personal experience that gives me knowledge, I should be able to share that knowledge in a verifiable manner with others so that they too can obtain this knowledge. For instance, if I figure out that the earth is round based on my personal experience of flying in the space shuttle and seeing first hand that it is round, I can share that knowledge with others either by having them also go in the space shuttle and view earth for themselves, or I can take photos or provide some other sort of evidence of my experience to others so that they too can obtain this knowledge. Their knowledge of the earth's shape is then based on reality rather than their own desires to believe or some other "non-proof". Real knowledge should be objective and capable of being tested, demonstrated, and/or experimentally verified. Given these factors, even those that claim 'knowledge' of god are agnostics as their 'knowledge' is really a misuse of the word. What they have isn't knowledge. What they have is a belief in their own experience and nothing more. If they had 'knowledge', they would be able to share it with the doubter, the evidence seeker, and those who don't already believe. To conclude and summarize, both you and I are agnostics. Almost everyone is an agnostic (in the modern sense of the word) since none of us have any evidence, proof, or other tangible means of giving knowledge regarding any of the various versions of god that the masses currently believe in or have believed in the past. The few people who truly believe that they can prove or disprove the existence of god(s) probably could not be classified as agnostics under this frame of thought (although even this is debatable as one person's "proof" can be pure nonsense to another and would, therefore, leave the non-agnostic status only in the eyes of the person claiming the illogical "proof"). Everyone is either a theist or an atheist. If you answer the question, "Do you believe in god?" with an affirmative, then you are a theist. If your answer is "no" or "I don't know" then you are an atheist due to your lack of an affirmative belief.
  16. When you're right -- you're right. Ok. Enuf of this silliness. Thanks dooj for brightening up my evening.
  17. Why does someone always have to point out the obvious? If it's so obvious it doesn't need to be said. :) I am too. But I've noticed Paw doesn't spend a lot of time pouring over each and every thread to decide where they should be placed. This one is definitely a candidate for the "Just Plain Silly" forum. But what the heck -- I didn't start the gravy train. I just hopped on board it. I didn't ASK if you were. ;)
  18. I'm a bit faster than you. Hmm . . . . you're cranky. :)
  19. You just lack imagination dooj. Of course I'm a big fan of the movie "Matrix" and perhaps I watched it once too often. Besides, who said biscuits and gravy is only a breakfast staple? :)
  20. There you have it! You may not be into being slapped but you don't mind slapping me do ya? Yea, go ahead and post them. What's a little more torture going to hurt since you refuse to give me those damn biscuits to go with my gravy.
  21. Well, if all you do is cook them how would you know they were amazing? Is it the color or something else. Why do I get the feeling that I'm not going to get any biscuits with my gravy unless I bake the damn things myself? :)
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