JavaJane

Not unless there's a java joint nearby. Don't think I could do duo - would have to become a trio - Me, God, and coffee... Then again, maybe God could turn my water into coffee of I believed hard enough!

This statement makes a lot of sense to me. In being parents (good ones, not the abusive kind) and in taking care of our families is where we really see love in action. This is a self-sacrificing love, sometimes with very little in return (at least at some points.) I have heard many men say that they never really knew what love was until they had a child. Welcome, Shifra! How do you like your coffee? I'll buy!

I totally LOVE your story, Belle. You're the BOMB!

I just realized I didn't say what my situation was when I started this thing! Sorry about that. I was raised in twi from 12 or so on. I thought it was right and correct and everything else. First place I came to that actually read the Bible instead of talking around it. (Then again, I was 12, what the heck did I know?) My whole family became involved. So, I thought this was the end all be all... And I continued to think this until a couple years back. Nope, not the lawsuit - that didn't give me a clue (besides, I only thought it was a consenual affair and a "mistake" never knew it was a plural...) Not so smart... Oh well... Anyway... I think I started to realize what was happening when the teachings started to change in their style. Everything seemed to be read and forced... no individuality of the teacher involved. And everything was suddenly being taught straight out of the Blue Book. Seemed like if there had been such a sudden change, something was wrong.... it was either wrong previously, or it was wrong now. <_< So I started THINKING about stuff from before when LCM ran things and now... I compared the two and didn't just come to the conclusion that this was a "kinder, gentler" twi. I started seeing things that had been taught wrongly. The whole "all women belong to the king" crap was the start, because after the meeting we had to attend with the explanation of the lawsuit, that was the first thing one of the old timers said to justify LCM's actions. It didn't make sense to me at all... but then again, I thought I just needed to become more spiritual. But later I really started to consider things and I saw a lot of holes. First, only in LCM's teachings - for instance the whole concept that you could become so strong in an area that the adversary would never be able to attack you there again. What a crock of poo! In that case, Jesus Christ never would have been attacked, right? And then I started thinking about Jesus Christ more and more and the things that were taught in twi and how they applied to him. And they didn't match logically. Like, if weakness always brings down strength, then how did Jesus Christ even begin to minister to ANYONE EVER? As this train of thought kept going down its tracks, I started to examine other things we had been taught... One by one, it started to crumble, and I saw that the focus was not on God, Jesus Christ, or even on taking care of the believers. It all seemed to center around leadership, specifically the MOG. The only conclusion I could come to was that something was definately not right... and then I started talking to people... and I started to realize that there had been more going on with the "MOG" that what we had been told. And I started to get angry. I had sacrificed relationships and people to this IDOL that was twi. And twi didn't even have the balls to stand up and say what had really happened.

You think gospel music is devilish, but Metallica is ok. (Don't get me wrong, I like a little Metallica now and then.)

Just curious... How many of us here at GSC were people who were either raised in "the Word" or were people who only got involved during the reign of "He Who Shall Not Be Named But Has the Initials LCM"? And how about those who came in during the current administration? Why did you leave in comparison to those who became involved during the reign of "He Who Drank Drambuie And Killed Coco"? (If you did.) When did you begin to question things, and why? I'm very curious to see if anyone else out there had similar experiences to me. *edited due to mild bout of dyslexia

Don't kill me for this - I love animals. They're made from MEAT! http://www.recipesource.com/ethnic/asia/fi...00/rec0001.html It's the first one I've found... enjoy.

1. You know (ginosko) the fear (respect) of the head table. 2. You know the consequences of leaking oil on your leaderships' driveway (I used to bring cardboard to avoid this situation.) 3. You actually think that Ohio is truly the most beautiful place on earth. 4. You have woken up to the song "Beautiful Ohio" and regretted ever thinking #3 before you "renewed your mind." 5. When you thought the solution to a bad day was just changing your mind. 6. You know what female WC haircut number 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 look like. (You know what I'm talking about.) 7. You have suffered one of above mentioned haircuts. 8. You thought agape was only confined to the "household" of God. 9. You lived in an imaginary box called "Sanctified." 10. Everytime the phone rang and you heard your leadership's voice, you cringed.

So, that's how it was taught in VPW's class? Hmmmm, interesting. In LCM's it was taught that a "dream" didn't really mean a "dream" but rather a "vision" that you had when you were awake and that God NEVER communicated to you while you slept. Back to the daydreaming issue: I can understand the whole thing with not letting your mind wander all day long so that you really never know what is happening around you, and such, but it was carried to an extreme, much like the doctrines concerning dreams that you have while asleep. If nothing else, the dreams you have while asleep would be worth examining just to know what you are dealing with on a subconscious level. If I had paid attention to that a little bit more, I think I might know myself a little bit better.

Oh, crap... That was toooooo funny, dmiller.

They need to get a clue. People die. Sometimes they are good people, sometimes they are bad. Sometimes the bad people live for a really long time when they deserve to bite it. Sometimes good people die before they should. This is just how it is. It's reality. It just seems to me that not acknowledging the importance of this woman's life or death goes along with this whole idea that seems to permeate twi in the latter days that if we just don't mention the negative... if we are just POSITIVE ENOUGH, then all the bad stuff will just go away. Or, if you could just keep everything perfect all the time, then nothing bad could possibly happen, right? Something stinks in "Zion" but no one wants to acknowledge it, either. They just pretend that LCM was never president. From what I understand, even the tapes on which he taught have been marked off limits to most people. Because if they can just wipe out the memory of the one bad thing they admitted happened, then it will all go away, right? Jesus Chris exposed the Pharisees for what they were. He showed people what was wrong as well as showing them what was right. He ackowledged the negative, then changed the circumstances. But he spoke the truth. He spoke the truth when he said "Lazarus is dead." He stated the truth, then he went about changing the circumstances Unless you see what has happened and state the facts, then how can you ever change those circumstances? And the truth ain't always nice. In fact, sometimes it's downright foul. *edited for biblical accuracy according to the KJV because I am up way toooo late... but after I changed it once, I realized I was rigth the first time... what the heck?

Thank you, Socks!

Chas - what that picture really needs is a verse underneath it so we could all know whether or not it's edifying to be an a55 hole. On a completely separate note - I was thinking today (something I try to do more and more) about daydreaming... I remembered a day long long ago when I was involved in an outreach program in twi... I was very young, out on my own for the first time, and I suddenly realized that I was no longer letting my mind wander. I was so proud of myself. I was no longer daydreaming. Until that point oh so many years ago, I had been a daydreamer, letting my thoughts go where they wanted, thinking about all knids of things. After going into that program, I realized that I had so many other things to think about that all circuits were engaged (I thought at the time) with the WORD. This only flies if THE WORD is comprised of making sure your bed is made, that you witness to your quota of unbelievers, that your song leading was correct (smiling, correct count on the song, sit up straight, make eye contact with everyone in the room, etc.), that I was getting in the correct amount of time in the "word" (I put in quotes because this was also comprised of tapes and ministry publications), making sure basically that I was perfect in every possible way. Since I am not Mary Poppins, who is only practically perfect in every way, I found that this perfection I was trying to acheive really took a heck of a lot of work and brain time. And boy was I proud that I had managed to use up so much of my brain that I didn't have time to think about anything else. After the program was finished, I remember being corrected by a leader never to wish anyone "sweet dreams" when they went to sleep, because if you were dreaming, then you were not controlling your mind properly, or you had unfinished business from your day. A believer who was in fellowship with God would not need to dream. SO, since I had already stopped daydreaming, I started trying to stop dreaming at night as well. Didn't work. Man, did I condemn myself for that one for a while, before I realized that the statement was totally ridiculous after I did some reading about what functions dream serve. I figured this leader was probably wrestling with condemnation as well, but when I talked to them about it they said that we dream but shouldn't remember our dreams. Anyone else out there ever heard this one? Anyway, I'm getting back to dreaming more - day and night. My brain is becoming a much more pleasant place to be. I forgot how much fun you can have in your head, you know?

I'm thinking of applying over at Letterman...

Glad to be of amusement!

Hugs to you, eyes! I am still in love with God... I think that's because I loved Him before I ever met twi. I'm learning to know Him better now, and I am very thankful for that. but I am definately not sane.

You know what a dehumidifier is and the consequences of not emptying one. You parents encouraged you to not have friends in school. You vacationed in the Black Swamp. You consider fairy tales to be devilish. You can say f**k but you can't say luck. Your knee jerk response to seeing someone you know is "bless you." You know the horrors of the showers of blessing (we called them the showers of cursing.) You thought WOW burgers tasted good. You thought people who didn't buy meal tickets at WIB weren't spritiual (really they were just smart.) Anyone smarter than your leadership was considered possessed.

Right back at ya! I am not in as much pain as I used to be... I'm feeling much better after having a nice hot cup of reality to wake me up! I guess that's good!

You feel guilty for condemning yourself. Your schedule is so tight you have to schedule when you can have sex with your spouse. You have to approve that congugal time with your WC coordinator. You clean your bathrooms three times every day so you can feel decent and in order. A toothbrush is used for everyday cleaning.

I really think if they had just COME CLEAN on the whole bit and admitted to the wrongdoing, a lot of crap would have been avoided... instead people talk, they find out about what went on anyway, and then sit wondering what the hell else happened that they didn't know about. And then they find out from other sources (court documents, GSC, etc.) Makes you question everything. I have to say, I might even have maintained some respect for them if they had just ADMITTED the wrongdoing and been honest about it instead of thinking they had to protect us from the evil like little children. Instead I just felt like I was being treated like a moron. ...made "witnessing" a little difficult, too... since people could look twi up on the internet and read all the s*** that had happened, but when they questioned you on it, you knew nothing about it. DOH!

Almost thou persuadest me to be a vegetarian... almost.

I was once trapped in a mosh pit with a friend of mine and were knocked down flat when two mosh pits at a concert merged... Thought we were going to be crushed when we fell, all the wind was knocked out of us. Out of nowhere a huge bald man covered in tattoos walked (the crowd parted in front of him) up to us, picked us both up, one in each arm (we're not little girls by any way shape or form) and simply walked out of the crowd. He put us down, and said... Don't go back in there. We told him thank you, and he was gone. We didn't see him again, which was strange, because he was at least a foot taller than everyone else at the concert. When I was in college, I had a friend who had severe asthma. She had a bronchial spasm in our dorm room. My roommate and I got her in the car and rushed to the hospital. She was blue by the time we got there. While my roommate ran to get the ER staff, I started SITing for our friend, and she suddenly took a breath! The staff arrived just a second later and got her into the ER. I have more, but not the time to post.

Well... I don't believe that people who won't come to Jesus/be saved will be cast into the lake of fire. I've never believed that. Even (if I remember correctly) while in twi it was taught that the lake of fire would be reserved for the devil and his children, not for people who just didn't chose to believe in Christ. I do agree that teaching that you will burn forever is coercive, however. God gave us the ability to think and exist and do. I think He wanted children who would love him even though they could think... not because he was ready to hit you over the head at any given moment, or throw you into a burning lake, or because any other alternative was too horrific to think about. The reason I wanted to start this thread was to better understand how "free will" operates, and how to access it better. When I said we had "all" been coerced, I did not specifically mean JUST by twi. Even Eve was coerced... so was Adam... the devil tried to coerce Jesus Christ... Every human being has dealt with this in some form or another. This forum just seemed a good place to ask, because so many people here do feel like they were coerced, manipulated, or otherwise had their free will usurped by an organization... So, just as a refresher, since we're so far into this thread... here are my original questions: 1. How far does free will go - by this I mean, how far does free will cover the actions taken by people in circumstances that are beyond their control? 2. In hindsight, we all see that we were coerced in some way or another to do something we didn't want to do... is this infringement of free will? 3. What cicumstances have you been in that you feel your free will has been infringed upon?

I guess either way, the horse needs to get the water. In the first instance (manipulation) the horse ends up with a physical need that must be met, while in the second, the horse needs the water in order to avoid pain. I suppose the horse could run away, but in any case, the horse cannot avoid the "consequences" of its actions, either ending up dehydrated or beaten and bruised. Either way, he ends up feeling like a horse's a**.

The ones that bark nonstop? Yep, those are the ones... now where's C G33R when you need him?