JavaJane

THEREMIN!! AWESOME! You gotta love a Theremin! Perfect creepy sound for twi soundtrack!!

Junk drawer... I think?

How's this for an embarassing situation? You're a female follower of der Vey... you are dating a nice guy who is not a part of der Vey.... he looks up your religion on line and tells you that the only reason you are dating him is to lure him into your cult with the promise of sex. I was soooo offended... and embarassed BECAUSE I DIDN'T SLEEP AROUND - in fact, I didn't even know at the time that people actually DID THAT. Oh, how niave and stupid I was back then. Thank you greasespot... he read it here...

I have a neat freak husband who cleans everything for me. (Except the toilet, which grosses him out completely.) God bless that man. I cook, he cleans... Match made in heaven. Once read a quote: "A clean house is a sign of a boring woman." I say, "A smart woman marries a man who cleans the house for her." I'm sure twi would probably brand my husband as "having no balls" and me as a "domineering b**** " Oh well.

Just got done ordering The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse. Thanks for the recommendation! If only I could get my friend to actually READ stuff on Greasespot, I think it would help... but no interest. I don't think they really believe me when I tell them about all of the crap that has happened in twi with VP, all the BOT and BOD, the rapes, the lies, all of it.... Although they agree that twi is messed up and too controlling, I think it is too hard to believe they were actually a part of something that at it's very basis is so very foul and evil. It's hard when they seemingly "helped" you out of your previously messed up life... only to help you right into another one. I thought the same thing when I first started visiting the cafe a few years back. In fact, I thought everyone was just being way too negative. Now I understand... So many people cannot all have the same basic story and not have some thread of truth to it. The facts are there. I think reading the deposition of Rosie really helped me realize it was all real. That and the complete inability of any of the WC or other leadership to admit that something HAD happened to cause the lawsuit (we only knew about one)... and it was not a consensual one time affair. Too many things started to fall into place after reading the court documents. To have your reality just torn into shreds - it's a real mind-f***... And trying to understand that while you had some good things come out of a bad situation, the situation was still bad. The thinking in twi promoted only makes it worse - the black and white, good or evil thinking. For us or against us... Adversary or God... all of that makes it even more difficult to realize that something bad could cause some "good" in people's lives. People did get off of drugs because of twi. People stopped living on the streets. Friends were made - even some that don't mark and avoid when you don't want to go to fellowship anymore. But it was still "rooted and grounded" in complete sh**, and I don't mean manure. I mean the crap at the bottom of a nasty campground outhouse that makes you want to vomit when the wind blows the wrong way. Great ideas, everyone. I am taking notes... I think this will help my friend, and by the way things seem to be going, maybe I'll be able to help some others who can wake up and smell the outhouse, because the pile just keeps smelling worse and worse. They have to notice it sooner or later, right?

Thank you so much for the advice - I think it will help. I was heading to Amazon to buy another book today, anyway, so I will be sure to use the link. Yeah, it's funny about that "authentic" self bit. Since I was in it since I was a child, it's like trying to figure out who the heck I was/am/want to be for the first time. The real me is a lot different from the person I was, and I still suprise myself. I am a lot more sensitive than I used to be - both in the emotional self category (I get hurt a lot easier than I used to - probably the hard shell coming off) and in the empathic category. I'm not as willing to condemn people as I used to be... But I seem to have lost some of my sarcastic sense of humor along the way, too... and I miss the ridiculous self-assurance of being a part of the "One TRUE Household fo God." BARF... I hate that about myself, but it is true. And I think I am getting more honest with myself, too.... Thanks for the advice!

Just remembered the name of that class... Biblical Principals of a Believer's Family - or "The Family Class."

They came out with one in 2003, I think, called the Christian Family Class or something like that.... It was definately, definately post VP and LCM because I remember it being a bit puritanical about sex... I suppose that's only if you're not spiritually mature - otherwise, anything goes!

Someone I love is having some difficulty dealing with leaving twi… Not so much in that they didn’t want to leave, or perceives it as some great loss to their life, but more that they are having problems just dealing. It seems like their self assurance and confidence have just evaporated. We left at the same time, and it was me who had the worse time of it – probably because I was raised in it. Greasespot helped me a lot, but I was severely depressed and felt completely cut off from the world. It just didn’t seem like anyone out there could really relate except at the café’. I mean, common sense wise, I just seemed to myself like I must be pretty damn stupid to have even gotten involved with this cult in the first place (even though I was a kid at the time) and I must have been even stupider to have stayed in as long as I did! Plus, it seemed like every friend I ever had was in twi… I was isolated and sick. I ended up taking some advice to go to a therapist, and that has really helped… Not to say that I am not still affected by the whole experience – I don’t think a person really gets over an abusive relationship of any kind that lasts for over a decade with a couple of months’ worth of therapy… but I am better than I was. But now it is affecting someone else I care about, and even though I have been through it, I don’t know how to help. What helped all of you?

Handicapped spot? Couldn't possibly be twi... that would mean the person wasn't believing to be healed, right??

Howard Allen once told my husband that it used to be by revelation (where is that puking emoticon??) But now it's different because you have to be Way Corpse and they make you go through some sort of training program where you follow someone who is ordained around taking notes.... Howard seemed a little disgusted with the whole concept - guess he was longing for those good ol' days. They did something a while back where they ordained a whole butt-load of people all over the country at once, I think it was either right before or right after LCM's fall from grace. Anybody else remember that?

You sure it didn't read "Building Biblical Understanding?" That was a theme a while back when we were still in - and you know how twi loves alliteration!

I know I haven't been around in a while, but I stopped in and saw this thread and I think I'm hooked on the old greasespot coffee again... My husband and I left around the end of 2006. He had not been involved for that long, but I had been since a child... I think he saw things before I did, simply because he hadn't been raised to think twi was perfect. Took me longer than him to see it... and then it was because I got bored. Bored with going to the same fellowship every week twice a week. And by this I don't mean I got tired of attending at the same place with the same people (even though the number of people kept getting smaller by the week)... Nope. I got bored of having the exact same fellowship every single time I went. The order of service never changed. The prayers were the same every time. The manifestations were the same every time... The teachings were read from cards, and sometimes people never even cracked a Bible - they just read from a VPW book or a Way Mag article. ***t! I can do that myself... A person with a second grade reading level could do that for themselves. So, of course, I got so bored I started thinking. And questioning... and then when I got a chance to teach I went off the beaten path and taught about OTHER RESEARCH MATERIALS available ONLINE (gasp! shudder!!) And then I got a talking to.... and went back to being bored in an effort to please God. But I was still thinking... and looking at what had happened within twi with the lawsuits... and then I got tired of being controlled by people who were boring the crap out of me... And I started talking to other people and finding out it wasn't just me and my dear husband who were thinking like this. No one talks about it publically, but a lot of people involved in twi are just hanging in there thinking it is going to get better when the Fox steps down and they get a new president... And a lot of them are just thankful they don't get reamed every five minutes by a LCM wannabe. By that time, my husband (who was also bored out of his skull) decided it just wasn't worth his time anymore, so we faded into the background and disappeared. I think they let us disappear simply because they thought we were trouble causers and that we were still hanging out with people who had left twi. Imagine that! We were remaining friends with those SINNERS. Funny thing is... I didn't even realize until this year just how f***ed up my thinking had become while involved in twi. I was severely depressed... and the more I looked back on things that I had done and thought during that time period, the more disgusted with myself I became... I don't even recognize that person I was anymore. It seems almost like I was possessed (to use a twi term). Things are better now. Been going to therapy to get over what is termed "spiritual abuse" by my therapist. But I won't go into that here... there's a lot of crap that happened to me and my family because of twi before I decided to get out, but strangely, that didn't figure in much to why I left. I think I was so busy trying to simply SURVIVE within the "Household of God" so that I didn't get kicked out into the wilderness where I would die like Ananias and Saphira that I didn't have time to really THINK until I got bored... if any of that makes sense...? Nice to be back, JavaJane

Could someone please explain to me what the f*** "spiritual death" meant?? I had this one used on me once, and I never got an explanation as to what the heck it meant! It sounds really bad, though.

I love this thread. Thanks to all who have posted here! I have been thinking a lot about power and control and how they relate to all types of abuse. The need to control or exert power over another is never part of any healthy relationship. So much of what we were taught by twi involved a lust for power - over our circumstances, over our emotions, and over other people. This is what led to the abuse. We wanted to control our lives in every aspect. We were taught we had to control our every emotion (translation: do not have any) and never allow ourselves to doubt what we were taught. We were taught that we had to obey (translation: be controlled by) leadership. We (as women) were taught that we had to submit to our husbands. We were taught that being submissive was a good thing... It was all about power and control... whether it was our control or someone else's. How human it is to want to be in control. My husband and I were talking about some relationships we see around us where one party is only involved with the other because they can somehow have power over the other. My husband and I suddenly realized that we each knew we could never really control the other - and that we were ok with that. Control is not an issue with us. We are equals in this relationship even though we have different roles. That is what a healthy relationship should be. God gave us the ability to choose where we want our lives to go, even though He could ultimately be in complete control over everything. He is the only one who is omnipotent. He is also love - and He does not make our decisions for us. Control and power... this is what rape is about, this is what violent crimes are about, this is what abuse is about. I'm learning to let go of that bondage of being controlled and being controlling. It's a real nice feeling.

Oh! Let me guess!! The Godfather?

Well, if you had an electronic thumb, we wouldn't have to worry about the end of the world... just Vogon poetry and getting our hands on some extra towels.

I just snorted my iced tea. Thank you, Deciderator!! Thank you!! "...b!tches and hos..." "...The HOPE OF GLOW-RAY!!"

20 years?? How did I get so old? I spent some more time thinking about this last night and I am pretty sure this is an offshoot of some sort. If it was twi, they would be witnessing like crazy about what it is they are doing and how proud they are. And WateredGarden is right, I seriously doubt it would be something along the lines of Jonestown.

I see what you are saying, Mr. Hamm... What the heck is the point of the doomsday predictions if we're all just going to die anyway? So we can worry and be miserable about it until it does or does not happen? What's the point of that? Life's stressful enough without that hanging over our heads. If the world was coming to an end I'd probably start smoking again, and eat every pastry that came in sight...

Hey, look at the bright side - The Way Ministries is being saved the hassle of people thinking they are twi - which could do them a heck of a lot of damage!!

This is exactly what I was wondering, too! It also may be one of those over-reactive parent controlling the child thing. Did she have a boyfriend around who was not part of twi? That can cause severe overreaction. (take it from a former child who was forced to break up with a boyfriend who wouldn't take the foundational class.) AND SINCE I AM RECENTLY OUT - I second what Bliss just said. It does sound more like an offshoot that actual twi to me, unless your neice is going Way Disciple or on Staff, or if her entire family is headed into the Way Corps. *edited after I read Bliss's post

Hi, Roses!! I think the biggest thing that helped me was learning that it was OK not to know everything, and to be comfortable with not always having the perfect explanation. I had to learn that God was bigger than anything I could ever comprehend, and be able to sit in awe of that. It took a lot of pressure off. He's my Dad, and He knows best. I just have to trust in Him and that His nature will work in me. Everything else is just not all that important. The next biggest thing that helped was putting a focus on the life of Jesus Christ rather than the epistles while reading the Bible. (I got a couple new versions like WordWolf said - ones with no notes in them! That way when I was reading I didn't hear LCM's of VPW's voice reading the words in my head.) It helps to understand the simplicity of what he lived. He broke it down like this - Love God, love your neighbor as yourself. Greatest thing is to LOVE!! Everything else fits under that heading. If it doesn't THEN throw it out!

What an awesome post, ASpot!! My husband and I were just talking about this subject in the kitchen before I sat down and pulled up this thread... funny how things work. This has got to be the ULTIMATE taking of the name of the Lord in vain. To use Him as a weapon against others, to hurt them, to bind them, to put them in bondage, to manipulate and use His own children for your own personal gain. II Peter 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. It made Jesus Christ mad enough to overturn tables in the temple when he saw that place of worship turned into a place to make money. John 2:16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise. The "knowledge" of the "Word" was used against people. It hurt them. It was used as bait for the unwary. Sick.

What a wonderful thread! I am thankful for too many of you to mention. You have all opened my eyes to new ways of looking at life and what I believe. You have explained things in my life that I never even knew existed. You all help me understand myself with your words. Belle - you are kind and sweet, but a fighter nonetheless. You have shown me that you can still love people and stand up for yourself. Eyes - You make me think! That's always good. Bolshevik and Hammeroni - always make me laugh and get my geeky sci-fi jokes. Dooj and Bramble - you have both helped me so much in my creative endeavors. I am forever grateful. Chas - sometimes I think you are my twin! The Iams - you make me think through what and why I believe what I do. Shifra - thank you for the wonderful birth story!! WordWolf - your skill at debate leaves me speechless! Skyrider, Socks, ASpot, Abi, TBone, Raf - your relationships with God are evident in your post. They make my relationship deeper as well. Oldies - you remind me of the "good ole days" when things seemed so much different than now... You frame current thoughts in light of the old and give me a reason to remember why I was part of twi. Notta - one day we should have coffee. And to so many more! Thanks, Paw!!