JavaJane

Not really looking for a pattern, just examples. I'm trying to jog my memory of those times for some writing I'm doing. It's amazing how much I have forgotten... Getting them back is painful but clarifying. So, please tell on.

Some examples I remember: 1. Going out with another female believer to the clubs - got reamed by leadership because "two by two" wasn't good enough for the club or bar scene. We had to have a male present or go in a group of three or more. Otherwise we would end up "dead in a dumpster" because of our lack of obedience or something. 2. Not chopping tomatoes for salsa in the exact specified way. 3. Not having anything to say when my leadership insisted I was in out of fellowship and he needed to know why. (I didn't know what I had done. Still don't think I did anything.) 4. Making a breakfast with too much fat content.

Ah, yes... pre marital counselling. What a joke. What I remember most from it was the minister telling us that his wife had told him that the only reason she would divorce him would be if he left the ministry. He said we should think about reasons we thought would justify divorce, too. My reason abuse of myself or our children. His reason: infidelity. We didn't mention the ministry at all. I remember saying that I had already abandoned my family because they left the ministry and that was the biggest mistake I had made in my life.... and that I wouldn't break up the family I was starting with my husband for that reason either. Ridiculous. But I am glad he asked us that question - after we left that counselling session my husband to be and I talked about that and both promised each other we wouldn't leave each other just because one of us decided not to be part of twi anymore. That gave me so much reassurance that the man I was marrying was the right guy for me. He would love me more than the ministry. Thank God.

The local cult here, International House of Prayer, had a member commit suicide a few years ago. She lived a few houses down from me. She could have been me - I mean our situations and involvement in our respective cults were very similar. I am older, I married a man who convinced me to leave the cult. She was younger, and married to a man who was a narcissistic sociopath. He basically used her belief in God to drive her to suicide. That could have been me. There were times when I thought about what I would do if I had been marked and avoided... I decided I would take my car somewhere where no one would find me and I would take pills until I fell asleep and died. And that's what she did. Even the same method of suicide that I had contemplated. Rolling Stone did an article about her death (now ruled a suicide), and the reporter came to my house as a lead. I told him that day about my background, and then I told him that I wanted him to tell the world that she wasn't stupid, wasn't weak minded... She was manipulated and naïve. She came into a group wanting to do good and be called to a higher purpose. And there is nothing wrong with either of those things. But groups like TWI and IHOP use these good desires people have and twist them into a way to control people. That is where the evil really is. The environment that fosters trust in good hearted people, leading them down the path to their destruction. I'm just glad I got out before I ended up like her. Poor girl. On the anniversary of her death this year I took a small angel statue and some flowers and left them at the park where they found her body and said a prayer for her soul and for all the rest of us, too. The Rolling Stone reporter took my advice. Here is a link to the story... Bethany

You can't prevent cults. You can't prevent evil. You can educate people in critical thinking skills... that would help. Education in how to debate properly and disagree with civility. Education in how to spot manipulators and con artists. Logic... How to spot fallacies. How all-or-nothing thinking is incorrect. All of that is pretty lacking in our society now. It took heading to GSC for me to learn a lot of them. I never learned how to argue, just how to listen and respect my elders. Even to the point where I wouldn't argue with my husband about anything after we were married, because he was supposed to be my head. Not so much now. Now arguing is almost a fun way to pass the time when we get bored. I never knew you could argue with someone, never come to a shared opinion, but still respect and love that person.

The whole marriage stuff in TWI was a mess. That being said, I am glad I am still with the guy I married there. We had some rough years at the beginning because of TWI doctrines about marriage. At one point my husband went to our area coordinator and asked for help because my husband felt that he (my husband) had been verbally abusive to me and he wanted help in stopping. He said the area coordinator just looked at him with a blank stare. He didn't know what to say... After all, a man is supposed to verbally abuse his wife, right? I mean, who didn't? And for that matter, we were encouraged to verbally abuse each other in the body of believers, right? CONFRONT. We're working on ten years now. My husband and I have both grown and changed. He is more loving and caring than he has ever been. It took us both a long time and counselling to get the Way's ideas of marriage out of our heads. I had to learn to stand up for myself and treat myself as equal to my husband. I had to learn it was ok to not agree with every little thing all the time. He had to learn that I wasn't someone who was put on this earth to serve him in any way he saw fit. I'm thankful we both went through the crap together, because we both understand our weird backgrounds and traumas. And when we have a flashback we can be there for each other knowing personally what the other person is going through. In many ways it made us better people. Now if we could just fix the lost income from that time we'd be set.

Leadership positions could and would be filled by a number of people, but the selection of the people was left up to the highest level - the BOD/BOT. In fact, I think it was even taught that the only real "members" of The Way were the Board of Directors/Trustees. The selections were based on qualities such as being the biggest kiss butt, meekness (in Wayspeak this meant unquestioning obedience), etc.)... it sort of weeded out the ones who could have made or wanted to make changes. For instance, when I was WD, I had a area coordinator who was a very good man who brought a lot of people into the ministry through his abilities. His area thrived under him. Until he got up at a STS and taught something that wasn't spot on with his pre approved notes. Next thing you know he's scrubbing pots at Gunnison. Someone like him would not make it to BOD/BOT level. Even H@rve Pl@tig who was on the BOD/BOT wasn't kept around for too long - in my opinion, he was a good man as well, at least from my personal experience. So, is it the person, or the position? I think you wouldn't get (or keep) the position unless you were the "right" (in the president's view) kind of person willing to do the things they wanted done. I did horrible things while I was in, but I never wanted to be WC, because their level of commitment necessitated too much sacrifice of self. Not self sacrifice - I'm good with that - but destroying who I was as a person in order to be successful. I saw the things WC did - the marking and avoiding of entire families, the subservience, the boring clothes and hair and Stepford wives. I couldn't become THAT. And therefore I couldn't become upper level leadership.

I hate Christmas to this day, mostly because of TWI. First, because they took all the joy out of it by forbidding the use of the word "Christmas;" by changing all the words to the carols, by telling us we all needed to tell everyone how terrible and pagan it was... And then because I Marked and Avoided my family - and that made the whole thing worse - I had no one to spend the holiday with except TWI. And I still hate it to this day. Put up the tree with the husband and kiddo after Thanksgiving and spent the evening crying. F you, TWI. You are the ultimate Grinch!

I believe the definition would depend on one's point of view... When I first got involved, TWI was my mom's weird Christian friends. Later it became other things - it was HQ, it was the ROA, it was every believing believer, the one true household, Zion... What is it now that I am out? It's a sad little group of followers who have been duped by a trail of narcissistic sociopaths (VPW, LCM, and Rosie) to devote their life to a worthless lie. So - two parts to it: 1. The followers and 2. Corporate leadership. or... 1. sheep 2. wolves see, you have to look at the context and administration involved to understand the meaning of the word. Maybe you should buy a concordance, or look in the Blue Book. (Hi, Bolshevik!)

The way I explain it is that I was involved in and worked for an abusive Christian ministry and the experience heavily affected my life during the time I was involved in it, and even affects me today from time to time because the experience was very traumatic. The reason it was so traumatic was because these were people who were supposed to love and do good for others, but the meaning of "love" and "good" were twisted to be manipulative and harmful to those involved on a mental, emotional, financial, familial, and relational level. It's doctrines were made to control every aspect of a follower's life. I do use the word "cult" to describe TWI, but it's not my first choice. People hear the word and think of the Moonies, and Jim Jones, and Waco, and Satanism. I use the phrase "abusive fundamentalist Christian church" first, and then "fundamentalist Christian cult" once there has been some explanation of my experiences.

Date and Switch was how my husband got in as well... I wasn't the date. Funny, he ran into his old fellowship coordinator today at work, and his daughter is the one who was the date and switch. They are all out now, thank God.

Haven't been around this joint in a while. I see that the coffee is still pretty decent. Decided to stop by because my brain is starting to forget details from when I got involved in TWI... I was 12 when my mom got involved, so my story probably differs a lot from those who were not involved in TWI as children or adolescents. I am looking for examples of what draw you there in the first place and what was the point where you "sold out" to TWI's doctrine. I'm working on a sort of a supernatural murder mystery novel... the main character is investigating the death of his best friend who was involved in a group that is based off of my religious experinces and a couple other Christian fundamentalist cults I have run into in my travels outside of TWI (never got involved in any of those, thank God.... I know what the poison in the KoolAid tastes like now.) The story is partially written from the standpoint of the victim's journals, and how she experiences "unexplainable" coincidences and what she thinks is divine intervention because of her involvement in the group. I remember seeing things that I thought were miracles at the time, but my brain can't access the information now. It's been almost ten years since I left. I guess that's a victory. I do remember seeing devil spirits behind everything, but I don't remember HOW I became convinced of that as truth. Any stories would help - I won't share them specifically, but I could use some inspiration and a jogging of my own memories. Thanks, gang. The next round of coffee is on me.

It was funny to note that there was nary a one under the age of 50 in that group, men or women. Eventually they will die off, seems the younger folks can use the interwebs and stuff.

We aren't in Ohio at all anymore, we're out in the Kansas City, Missouri area. When we left in 2007, planned outreach events with branch grads were the norm about once a month. Everyone would head to some place where people were known to gather (the mall, local parks, coffee shops, farmers markets) and then try and find an "open door" to speak "the word" with people. Sometimes it was door to door. No one liked the events, but attendance was strongly encouraged. I wish I could have been faster on my feet with comments and questions to the group I found myself dealing with, but honestly, I was just trying to hold it together. Hands started shaking for a while after I first saw the Camp Gunnison logo. Geez, just when you think you're over the experience, the flashbacks come back again. I have decided though that if the situation presents itself again, I will have to ask some specifics about what has changed... At least when I was Way Disciple I could say to old grads, "It's different now, Craig is gone and we have a new president." Not so much now, because Rosalie ain't giving up her spot until she's dead.

I had the misfortune of working today when what I can only assume was a branch outreach event came through my farmers' market. They of course stopped to witness to me and were quite shocked to find out I used to be involved in their cult. I was informed I was on staff "at the worst time" and that things "had changed"... As my husband so eloquently put it, "Did they get rid of that old evil c**t that used to run the place?" My response? "I have no desire to ever go back even if it DID change." All in all a horrible experience. But it got me thinking... has anything changed? Has the old bat kicked the can yet? I think not. She's too evil to die. But I'm glad I got out. It brought back a lot of bad memories. I knew as soon as the first one came up that they were only there because they wanted something from me, and not what I was selling. It was obvious they were trying to force "the Word" into the conversation. I let them know I knew who they were when I saw the Camp Gunnison jacket. I was polite, as this is my place of business, but I did tell them I had no intention of ever ever going back, and that HQ was filled with hypocrisy, lies, and legalism. That being on staff was THE WORST EXPERIENCE IN MY LIFE. If they show up again trying to proselytize at the market they will be asked to leave. Thankfully the place had no customers today for them to witness to, only a couple vendors. Yuck and yuck again. BTW, they walked by my husband's place of work later that day. Guess there is a push for numbers right now.

I know the answer is probably a resounding "NO!" but I was curious. The last class I took was the Believer's Family class. And happily, I cannot even remember the correct name for the class.... something like "Biblical Principles of a Believer's Family" or some other such nonsense. It was completely and utterly forgettable. Except the clarification on bestiality not being ok... and something about a boy shouldn't touch a girl anywhere her soccer uniform covers?? What I do remember were the circumstances around taking the class. The first class was offered while I was Way Disciple, and we weren't allowed to take it because we were Way D at the time. The second time it was offered (read: shoved down my throat) was the week after my husband and I were married. Yes. We were supposed to drop everything after we were married and spend the time taking a class instead of a honeymoon. I told them that I thought God probably wanted us to spend that time doing "married things" instead of taking a class about "married things". THEN, when it finally came around for us to take the class again we finally signed up for it. And the day of the class starting I slipped with a large bread knife and ended up needing a trip to the ER and a bunch of stitches on my right hand. This happened about two hours before the class started. We called the fellowship coordinators and told them what had happened and that we probably wouldn't make it to class that day. They "strongly encouraged" us to get there. Somehow we did. And what did I learn? Nothing I remember at all. Except the bestiality thing. Which was (come on, people!) a bit of a no-brainer. And the sudden reversal of TWI's position on premarital sex. Which annoyed me, but I was married by then, so it didn't effect me much at all at that point. And they wanted me to miss my honeymoon for that??

It helps that I don't have to worry about resumes, too. Also, please understand that I don't bring this up in conversation all the time. Just if the subject comes up, I talk about it willingly.

I actually tell people I was involved in an abusive fundamentalist Christian church. Mainly because we have another bigger group headquartered in the town I live in, and I have reason to speak out against their practices backed by my experience in twi. And when people meet me now they know there is no way I would get involved in a group like twi again (now a liberal free spirit small business owner and member of a Catholic parish). I make it easier for people to see how easy it is to be influenced by groups like twi when you are in your teens and early twenties - the target demographic for this local group. And weirdly enough I am no longer ashamed of my involvement. I was, as recently as a year ago. But I don't care anymore what people think about it. I was duped. I am smarter now. Wiser now. More self aware. It gives me a perspective and empathy that can help others. One day I hope to start a support group for people who have been involved in groups like twi (and IHOP our local group.). I want to get some mainstream churches involved in this, but not allow proselytizing by those groups. I know the deacon at my church and a United Church of Christ pastor helped me a lot in the last year to see that not all Christian groups are like twi. (Funny, the UCC church is the current incarnation of the Evangelical and Reformed denomination that VP was kicked out of back in the day.)

Ha! I don't think they would go that far in housekeeping. They are using the same vacuums as they did when the OSC was built. I'm all for stewarding stuff, but those things were heavy and caused many repetitive motion injuries to the housekeepers. Once again showing more concern for the object than the person. I run my own business now, producing hand made high quality baked goods. Anything for my business that saves man hours and prevents injury is worth the money.

There really isn't. I was in housekeeping - when I was there we were told repeatedly that we were easily replaced by an outside group for cheaper, but it was our "spiritual" influence because we were believers and everything we cleaned was cleaned with the love of God... Everything gives off something... Yadda yadda yadda. The toilets at the OSC were cleaned twice a day, once in the morning and once in the afternoon. Lobby carpets vacuumed every day. We cleaned what didn't need cleaned. And some things had been cleaned so much they were wearing out. The wood has been polished so much it started to get sticky from so much polish residue. Something to be learned from that... Too much focus on doing STUFF and not enough on caring about things that were important. We worked six days a week, cleaning things that didn't even collect dust. A complete waste of man hours.

The Way still portrays Maggie Muggins (in costume like a sports mascot) with red hair - much like the character's description in the link above.

Here's a story for you: One of my brothers was in the military. He was assigned to an area that had no fellowships. He was encouraged by leadership to not take the assignment (given by his superiors that would make or break his military career) because of the lack of a local fellowship. WTF? And another one: A dear friend of mine is married to a Marine. They were assigned to a base that was an hour and a half away from the closest fellowship. The local limb leader approached me one day and told me that he just couldn't understand their priorities by taking that assignment. I told him that when you are in the military you go where you are assigned - and that he should understand, being in a program that was based on the MARINE CORPS. Stupid @$$.

I am going to have that song stuck in my head for the rest of the day.

While, at times, Johniam can be annoying, I believe he serves a greater purpose here at the café, and one for which I am grateful. Johniam reminds me of how I used to think and reason when I was in twi and under their spell. And that is a good thing for me. It is too easy to just forget how I was. And while others might want to forget, I don't. I want to remember so I can help those who continue to think this way. Had a flashback yesterday to my twi days. I was sitting in a local restaurant with my daughter having lunch. The conversation behind me was two women talking about ordination and laying on of hands... and at the next table was a girl witnessing to her sister about the local cult (and bashing water baptism). It just reminds me of where I used to be and where I am now. I feel for these people, because when they get out they will have a lot to fix in their lives. And then I came home tonight to find the bible fellowship (same cult - they are everywhere here) had parked literally in our front yard... ok,, well, it was two tires on our yard, but still... Without Johniam on this board I could become callous to these people. But he is here to remind me of how I used to be and not get too high on my horse.

Thanks, Sky.