JavaJane

It even morphed intonot being able to contribute as a group to buy anything foe anyone... For instance: someone wants to get a new married couple a wedding gift that is out of their price range, so they go in with another couple to purchase it. Nothing wrong with that, right?? WRONG. Because the other couple was wing coerced into buying the present because it wasn't their idea. They wouldn't be giving freely. And you also weren't supposed to put your wedding registry info in your invitations because it was asking for a gift. And it just goes on and on... More and more legalism. It may not have been to this extreme everywhere, but it was where I was. My husband and I got called on the carpet over the gift policy, and since my husband couldn't wrap his brain around how convoluted the whole thing was we heard every possible situation explained in detail.

You are exactly where I was a couple of years back. It gets better. I rethought every thing I thought I knew about God and life after I left. I couldn't figure out how to pray to God, how to talk to him, what He/She/It even was - there were so many lies and wrong teachings that I just threw all of it out and decided to start over completely. My beliefs have changed pretty dramatically in the last two years, and continue to evolve. I started just talking to God instead of "thanking Him" for everything on my little wish list before I had it. It was really really hard to do. I also went back to the most basic truth I knew, something that twi didn't teach about. Love God, love your neighbor as yourself. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son. I knew those things were right. From there, I just let myself think about things - even things that twi would have considered evil. I considered them, I thought about them. I am still thinking. And I have some major changes in basic things that were taught by twi. I try to be kind to everyone. I have redefined what I think love is, and how to love people. I put my family before anyone else. I believe that I have no place in judging anyone else's beliefs. I believe that all religions can be learned from, and that all have some points of truth within them. I believe that God is both male and female, and neither male or female - that aspects of both are contained in God. I believe in giving to those less fortunate than me. lots of changes... and others as well. I pray to God in a more honest way now. Things overall are better - and I know I have a better relationship with God than I did before.

My WOW year ranks in the top 2 worst years years of my life. I did make some great lifelong friends there, though. And most of my team is not involved anymore... I can think of two that are still in, and one of those is a maybe. And at least one of my WOW team is a regular at the cafe'.... (but he doesn't know I'm me.) 'Cuz I'm incognito. **edited because nothing I said made much sense except the first sentence... damn those pronouns.

Real quick since I'm sneaking onto GSC when I should be working... Remember the "Sonship Right TM" teachings on righteousness? Didn't LCM interpret "righteousness" to mean "right living"? (And I am WORKING HEARTILY TO THE LORD, for any judgemental lurkers.)

Rosie may look like a nice, sweet, old lady who would never hurt a fly... The first clue there is still something wrong in wayville is the fact NO APOLOGIES HAVE BEEN MADE. And NO REAL EXPLANATION HAS BEEN GIVEN to ANYONE about what happened with LCM. Nope. Instead, they watered down the teachings, told everyone to act nicely, and covered up the poop with a bunch of fake sweet sugar... still doesn't taste like fudge, though. And they still ruin people's lives. they just don't do it as publically as they used to. If it is rotten at the root, it is rotten at the core.

Twinky got me thinking... what about: Acts 4:32-4:35 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any [of them] that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, And laid [them] down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need. ?? I'm not promoting a completely socialist society, or what have you, but there has to be a BALANCE. As Christians (and as HUMANS) we need to be able to develop ourselves as individuals, and then also be able to benefit humanity as a whole. None of that is based on fear.

If I could get an answer on that I would be very very happy... I have a hard time understanding what it was about me that allowed for that... I'm a different person now and I don't let people walk on me BECAUSE of what happened in twi, but before? I don't know. I think I was too young when I got involved, and since my parents were in I just sort of replaced their authority over me with twi's authority.

I say believe what you want to believe... I agree with what Bramble brought up - the true problem happens when obedience to a man is necessary. Then it becomes hurtful... (I don't believe in the "law" of believing anymore myself, but if anyone else wants to believe it works, good for them.) My issue with twi and the ties it has to occult beliefs is that they tout themselves as some sort of experts in the field - as if they have an explanation for everthing out there that is supernatural. They don't. I was so impressed when I became involved that twi actually acknowledged that the supernatural did exist that I bought everything they said on the subject - that anything supernatural that happens outside of twi's defined acceptable parameters was evil. Not necessarily so... I had a massage therapist who unbeknownst to me practiced Reiki. While she was working on me she described a pain I had been having for years perfectly - and she wasn't even working on that part of my body with her hands. She kept working on me, and by the end of the massage that pain was gone. It never came back. And I didn't believe in Reiki at the time. I had actually thought in my twi brain that she must be possessed and that I would speak in tongues to counteract her weird Reiki stuff. Guess what? I still don't have that pain. And that girl wasn't possessed. And I'm thankful I don't hurt anymore. Ironically, that injury had been caused by overexerting myself trying to do setup for a big twi event. No one offered to minister to me, and when I asked I didn't get healed.

I swear one of those women just winked at me. I need to take a break and get off this computer.

I guess we are what we eat....

One WC wife I knew told the story of how she "got in the Word" - she decided to sign the green card because she wanted to "be right." It sounded so noble back then, the desire to be RIGHT. I'm realizing now that it's not all that important. For instance, it's not really all that important to tell everyone how wrong they are so that you can be RIGHT. It's not so important to KNOW everything and have an answer all the time. It's not so important to have good table manners and know proper ettiquette so that you can appear superior to your fellow man. Those are all just ways to look good for man - if God looks on the heart, if Jesus was right when he said we should "love God and love your neighbor as yourself," that stuff can't be that important. It looks like loving God and people is a lot more important. Jesus ate with lepers, prostitutes, and tax collectors. I'm pretty sure they didn't care much about his table manners, but were just thankful he cared about them. And as for neighbors - it's not JUST the people who are like you - people who are part of the "remnant" or "Household of God" - it's whoever is next to you. Sometimes I have Wiccans, Pagans, Jews, Buddhists, Moslems, and cult members for neighbors (I literally have cult members for neighbors, but that's another story entirely - they are nice people.) Sometimes your neighbors are homosexuals and sometimes they are Democrats, Republicans, Liberals, Members of the Tea Party, and so on... Judge not, lest thou be judged. BEING RIGHT isn't so great. BEING LOVING is. TWI didn't teach anyone how to love, they only taught us how to be right in our own eyes. They even taught us that being loving means jumping all over someone whenever they made a mistake. CONFRONT THE WORLD WITH THE WORD. And don't tell me it's a kinder, gentler twi. I've been there, done that. It's not.

I am finding myself more and more inclusive of beliefs - I'm a Christian because I believe in Christ... I am finding that I also have common beliefs with Buddhists and some pagans. Who knows what I am? I also like Chik-fil-a. And beer.

Ca-FART-ic. A purging of the gas caused by the casserole of cynicism.

I was just going to stay out of this... But I have moved beyond boredom into annoyance. James, go away. We don't care. Most of us have already spent our time in a cult and can see a charlatan coming a mile away. Been there, done that. My purpose here is to help those who are still in twi and might want out, to help those who have left, to help myself make sense of that part of my life, and to have a couple of laughs along the way. You do not add to any of these purposes - in fact, you detract from them. Go away and find some other group - we don't need your leadership, your doctrine, your long posts, or your rules.

Still thinking, so the koolaid hasn't set in completely yet... and before I drift into that koolaid fog completely: The whole "devil spirit = talent" and "the only way you can do it is with spiritual help from God" thing when it comes to doing something well is just another way of saying one thing: THERE IS NOTHING SPECIAL ABOUT YOU WITHOUT TWI YOU ARE NOTHING, OR WORSE, YOU ARE EVIL.

But God made us all look different, made some of us shorter than others, made other people physically stronger... Never mind. I'm trying to apply logic again. Silly me. Let me drink some more koolaid and I'll get back to you on this one.

I think you were smart in your approach Tzaia... How did you deal with the whole "the suggestion of a leader is tantamount to a command" (or some such nonsense.) I was just a kid when I got involved (like 10 or 12) and I thought these people could walk on water. Gullible. Completely gullible. I guess, in a way I never thought of, the power of suggestion goes pretty far as far as an ability to control people. I never thought of it that way before - I always just thought of it in terms of commercials making me want to go eat cheeseburgers or something, or someone reading body language while reading Tarot cards to tell if they are hitting the mark with their reading. I never thought of the power of suggestion as being connected with ESP at all - I should rephrase - I never thought of it being a spiritual or supernatural thing that was dangerous (like twi taught about devil spirits)... Sometimes I think what people *don't* say - what they express in body language and facial expressions, tone of voice, etc tells more truth about a person and their intention than any words they could say.

I was never TOLD to do many things I swore I was told to do by leadership... For instance, I was never told I needed to cut off all contact with my family because they were Mark and Avoid... (nope, I just remembered the conversation wrong when I was informed that if I decided to do so I would be taking a stand for God and standing in the gap, thereby protecting my family from certain ruin and destruction from the Adversary... They didn't TELL ME specifically that I shouldn't talk to them....) I was also never told that I shouldn't purchase health insurance from work (I was simply told that I could believe big enough that I wouldn't need it.) I wasn't told that I couldn't be late for meetings (but sometimes they would lock the door if you did show up late.) Yup, there was a lot of stuff the NEVER said. It was all just free-will fellowshipping!

Let's call it "highly encouraged".... mandatory is such a not nice word, OldSkool. Nothing is mandatory in twi... it's all free will.

I think they stopped the "love offering" thing when they did the whole NO GIFTS TO LEADERSHIP thingie... Otherwise known as the "gift policy" (cause gifts carry devil spirits, right?) From what I remember before that, the love offerings were to show special appreciation for a specific event or teaching above and beyond your normal percentage of giving.

I think gullibility might be a part of it... That, and for a lot of us the desire to really do something for God and be special at the same time. Funny thing is, now that I am out I almost have radar for religious quackery. I get around people and they just feel like twi. It's happened a couple of times - first time when my husband decided he wanted to go to church with a friend of his - nicest kid you could ever meet. My husband came back from church all pumped from the music they played. I was suspicious. I had met the kid and he had that sicky-sweet feel to him. But I thought I was being judgemental. I decided to go to the church. I went. It was ok... Pastor gave me the heebie-jeebies. I chalked it up to having a residual fear of leadership from twi. Second service I attended, the pastor starts saying he has revelation that there are people that need to be ministered to becuase of finances... Come on down!! Slays them in the spirit. Then while they are passed out on the floor he starts calling up those who have a spirit of infirmity! Then depression! Then suicide! People are coming down and screaming, tearing at their clothes, then passing out cold in front of the church. Then he stares at me and my husband and says "Some of us here haven't comitted their lives to God! Come down and let me minister the spirit to you!". I was like, "Hell freaking no!" and almost got up and left. Who the heck was this guy to judge us, who had given EVERYTHING we had to try and serve God? Obviously he wasn't getting revelation, because God knew what we had been through. The pastor and his wife tried to corner us after the service. I brushed past and never looked back. It was so disturbing to me that these people who had genuine problems had been encouraged to air them in front of the entire congregation - and that some of these issues were SEVERE mental disorders that needed to be treated by a mental health professional, regardless if a spirit was involved or not. I learned after that to trust my gut on this stuff. The second time was running into kids involved in the International House of Prayer. After meeting them and gettting the cult vibe I knew IHOP was not just another church. But that has been discussed in another thread. **edited because I hate auto spell check on my iPhone.

EXACTLY. If an organization treats people (the children of God) like crap it's a pretty good indicator that the place isn't godly. I got out of twi for precisely that reason. I decided then and there that if twi treated people that way then there had to be something fundamentally wrong with their doctrine - even if it was just that they didn't LOVE THEIR NEIGHBOR AS THEMSELVES. Therefore, if any group was based on twi doctrine (which was fundamentally flawed) then that doctrine had to be flawed as well. And if the doctrine is that wrong, then the way they treated people had to be screwed up. Bottom line for me: Love God, love your neighbor... you do those two things, the rest doesn't really matter. twi didn't follow those two commandments - and it doesn't look like their splinters do either.

I wouldn't say you don't belong here - your life was indirectly impacted by twi, too. And your comments do help those who may be lurking to think about the illogic that twi promotes. That is very important!