Tzaia

You can't ever know until you stand in front of Jesus. I don't think what we believe is going to make nearly as much difference as what we did with it. Jesus had 2 great commandments and neither one of them had to do with 'right believing'.

Donald Stout... PM or e-mail to get this information.... not good to give out phone numbers or addresses over the internet. DooWap

Dr. Phil says the measure of a man is how he conducts himself behind closed doors, out of the public eye. The problem with the CES ministry is that most people don't see the private and the public very much to be able to make an accurate assessment either way. One woman wrote on this board glowing remarks about a person who works at CES that she's never met. Her only 'experience' was over the phone and in writing. Based upon that experience, she couldn't understand what his part of the problem at CES was. Well, I've been there, seen it, and experienced what his part of the problem could be. Who's assessment is more valid? Was it she who experienced the public person, or me who experienced the private person? There is a whole study of the psychology of group dynamics and the notion that participation in a group or situation allows you or perhaps forces you to form a bias that allows behavior that you would find unacceptable in other people or groups of people. They don't call it 'group think' for nothing. The need for belonging overrides objectivity. Things just don't seem all that out-of-line when it's someone with whom you share an affinity. The point being is that most of you don't have enough relationship with any of these people at CES to make them leaders of anything in your life. This is the reason why delving into the realm of church and making it worldwide is so not the direction to go. These churches and groups are not autonomous. They are required to adhere to an incredibly strict set of standards that in no way can be monitored, by leadership who has no outside accountability. I've read the drafts of ordination and fellowship inclusion documents and I found them to be not unlike what was required to run a twig or be a WOW ambassador. And of course they didn't see it at all. The reason why we can make Jesus the Lord (leader) in our life is the assurance from God (someone we trust to have our best interest at heart) that Jesus truly is the risen Lord. That, coupled with the writings and witness of the people who had deep personal knowledge of him and how he conducted himself behind closed doors and how they consistently told the same things about his character lends validation to the assurance of God that Jesus deserves our praise, and yes, worship. Giving anyone else that level of access into your life without the benefit of knowing how they are behind closed doors is inappropriate. Anyone demanding that level of access into your life without the benefit of knowing how they are behind closed doors is inappropriate.

Take your meds. Become more educated about how to spot and deal with the issues that cause the depression. For instance, low levels of Omega 3 EFA's will aggravate depression. I am able to control my bi-polar through supplements and learning how to control my thoughts, which control my moods. When I was taking meds, I had to carefully monitor them because too much of one kind would put me in the manic end and I was a raging manic. Too much of the other kind put me into the dysphoric end and I am an end-it-all low ender. I take things slower. I try not to react to things. And I really try not to personalize things. I discovered what triggered my episodes was the absence of boundaries in my life, particularly my work life. It was a rough couple of years establishing and protecting my boundaries. I lost several clients, CES being one of them, because I put a stop to the continual crossing of boundaries. I wasn't a good 'vendor' because I hated going there, but I couldn't say enough. Finally I just started doing everything they wanted and billed them for every minute of my time, and they were appalled that I did that. I heard the 'we're a financially struggling ministry' line and I countered with I'm a human being that doesn't deserve to be woken up at 6:30 on a Sunday morning by a raging Jeff because he's been screwing around with the web site again and locked himself out and that somehow it was my fault. Or it was my fault because he couldn't understand the concept of a tape backup. When I confronted him about his behavior, I was possessed. I wasn't possessed. I was mad. Then I was done. It was only a matter of time because Jeff had Dan's ear and Dan had Mark's ear. I've found it amusing, if not ironic that they have suffered the meltdown and that I wasn't nearly the problem Jeff made me out to be. The problem with many fringe ministries is they are led by people who are seriously in need of services and who attract people who have even deeper problems. Once I realized they caused more problems in my life than joy, I was able to disengage and move on.

I agree. I've been doing some research on personality disorders and a significant number of people with borderline personality disorder (BPD) end up in cults. That may be why Momentus is seen as such a good thing. Remove some of the dysfunction without removing the desire to stay in the cult. Although I can't see anyone who is a low functioning BPD being able to survive the weekend.

Better one kid like that than 4 adult women with various personality disorders that finagle their way onto a school board, take it over, and turn a school system upside down by putting the superintendent on administrative leave over personality conflicts. http://www.wesupportwilliams.com

I didn't do Momentus. It was the 4 page hold-harmless agreement that stopped me along with the badgering by JAL. I just didn't have a good vibe about it. I was attending the local fellowship and saw what was happening to people who went. They were getting to be too damn much like WayCorp grads, if they had not literally suffered a breakdown. People were shell-shocked. The 'fruit' was rotten in my opinion. I was very concerned about the agreement to basically put my life in their hands. I flat out said that I didn't have enough of a relationship with anyone on the team that would allow them to have full control over my situation without accountability, which I believed the hold-harmless agreement excused them from having. The whole tone of the paperwork to go through the 'experience' required much from me and nothing from them. It was a red-flag situation for me. I questioned the methods that necessitated a hold-harmless agreement and I was very concerned that no one had sufficient training to deal with psychological issues that might surface. To me, the whole thing seemed very toxic. I was also privy to a little gathering of Momentus 'grads' that showed such an utter disregard for other people that I came to the conclusion that nothing good could come from this 'training'. What was even more interesting was the attempts to defend the very bad behavior. I ended up telling them that if this is what Momentus turns a person into, I wanted no part of it. I think that's the wrong question. I can't do anything to force that change in someone else's life, and God won't. What they did(do) in Momentus is force you through agreement and then intimidation (once you realized what you had done) to hold you to that agreement to acquiesce to them. These people believed honoring the agreement superceded the fact that they were duped into making the agreement. I refused before it ever came to that, because I felt I couldn't give informed consent. For me, it was that simple. One of the things I said to JAL was that I was concerned that Momentus approached people as fundamentally flawed human beings and therefore needed to be torn down to be built up into something better. I told him that process cannot be done in 3, 4 or even 7 days. It is a lifelong process that if you are planning to use that radical a procedure to jumpstart the ongoing process, then there needed to be sufficient follow up with the attendees. That was something I had not seen. People were being turned loose too raw and exposed without any real closure, or anyone to turn to. I have seen people change in the course of 3 days and one of them was me. One of the primary factors in that change was the willingness to meet people where they are and go from there.

You would think, now wouldn't you? Dan Tocchini was a devout trinitarian. In fact, he didn't 'advertise' the fact that he was hauling them in from CES because of CES's stand on the trinity and that would hurt business. Both JAL and MG said they were making 'inroads' with Dan. I said no way. He's just humoring you because you are an income source. The trinity, for me, blurs too many distinctions between what God did and what Jesus did and the purpose of the holy spirit, but I don't get my shorts in a bunch because someone chooses to believe in the trinity.

It can be purchased through the CESTFI bookstore.

I don't think you can live and understand the concept of grace in that environment. Once I did the 3 day thing (ours is called the Great Banquet after the Luke passage), I understood better what accountability was and what grace was and that made being around them interesting, to say the least.

It is hard to explain what it is like in the home office. I haven't been there for over 2 years and I have no desire to return for any reason. There is no one there I care to interact with. While they are pleasant to everyone, they are real with no one, but they think they are. They tend to insulate themselves from the outside world. The dynamics in the office are weird. I could never work in there full time because full time consists of all time. The staff is who they live with, sleep with, eat with, worship with, and socialize with. If you pulled away in any of those areas, you became an outsider. I was never an 'insider' to the Way culture, but I knew well how it felt like to be an outsider. I started feeling the same way around many of the office staff that I felt around Corp people - that they didn't think I was spiritual enough because I hadn't chosen their path. It was just a vibe that I was getting. I didn't buy into the whole STFI thing and didn't hide that. I felt they were doing some good, but not to the point where I would leave the church that I was involved in and participate in fellowships or conferences. The one time I did attend a conference, supposedly as a speaker(that never happened due to poor planning), I was so uncomfortable that I vowed to never do it again. I am rarely uncomfortable in situations, so for me to feel so out of my element, served as a wake up call. I had finally gotten to the point where for me, they were all just plain weird. Being around them just did not feel right. I didn't fit in and ultimately I didn't want to fit in. TzI ya is how I pronounce it.

No. Being on time with tapes and publications was a huge issue prior to DG's arrival.

Because they have no sense of 'self' or a distorted sense of self and need something outside of themselves to define who they are. I had to think long and hard why I was attracted to these organizations in the first place and it was because it gave me an identity that was out of the realm of 'normal'. It made me more of a Christian, a better grade of believer, or so I was told. What happened tho, was that I could never be good enough or worthy enough for the organization. Now I know that God's grace is sufficient (which I learned in one of those 3 day things not Momentus. Knowing God's grace is sufficient made walking away easy.

Hello I'm back. I spent a few more days after Mark called me talking to people who had been involved in the administrative side of STF for a number of years. I listened to what people had to say and have come to the conclusion that no one is without blame. Apparently some people received 'benefits' that weren't available to all the employees and this was well-known and tolerated within the walls of the main office. Those who did complain found themselves jobless. I have had a problem with how things work there and now I believe it's a cultural thing and all are reaping what they have sowed. I just don't think they get it. I don't feel anyone got far enough away from the Way mentality to allow their brain to wire differently. Ironically, after coming to that conclusion I read an article in the WSJ that confirmed my hypothesis is a viable reason.

It is obvious you haven't reflected much, but that's OK. Mark didn't give me any specifics, he didn't coach. He apologized. I have been drawing on my personal experience based on what he apologized about, which was him discounting my very specific warning about his future with STF before I left. You don't have to be there and you don't have to be coached to know that if bad behavior is rewarded, that it will continue . What I have shared is not what MG told me. It's what I told him...2 years ago. He didn't have to tell me DG turned against him. I told HIM that is what would happen...2 years ago. I'm sure he thought I was a lot of things at the time, but my being right about what lay ahead for him was not one of them. I'm reasonably sure his perception 'colored' any kind of 'prophecy' he may have had about me. It doesn't matter to me what MG 'prophesied'. I'm reasonably sure he didn't get any of it right because he seemed pretty surprised at what I've been doing the past 2 years and with the direction I've taken my life. So Matt, I don't care what he thought or what he said. I know MG maligned me. It was the only way he could justify what he was doing and wrap his mind around it. I'm not stupid. I do credit MG with being enough of a man to apologize to me, which is more than any of the rest of you can say. If you are right and he called me to garner support, what I can support is that in spite of what he might have done to me, he's still probably the best qualified person to run the ministry. Quite frankly, it really doesn't matter to me whether the ministry dies or continues. Up until Sunday afternoon I hadn't paid any attention to STF and haven't been here in nearly 2 years. I've made no effort to keep in contact with any of you. When MG called me I came out here and started reading and was sickened by the whole thing. It's the same stuff. Matthew, we all have issues. I was just more open about mine than any of you were about your issues. That is the one thing Mark told me is that he found out the hard way how you can't really be honest with one another or have a problem or a weakness. You will get nailed for it. Duh!! Been there, done that, got the T Shirt. So I really am not all that surprised that you would attack me and attempt to discredit me based upon my state of being an imperfect human. You got me there, buddy. I am imperfect and I do have issues. I guess that does discredit any truth or any valid points I have made...NOT! {suggestion: read sections on websites on logical fallacies} I'm sorry all this happened. I'm not surprised any of it happened. I'm certainly not surprised at how ugly and mean towards each other all of you have become. Ugliness and meanness have never been that far from the surface. Very sad. I congratulate you on your marriage. It's about time someone made an honest man out of you

Yes. I did not lose out. I am happy I'm no longer involved. It was not a great gig.

It was because of the music - or lack thereof. I kept telling them to rent a school and get a great band and a tremendous worship leader and have praise and worship with a light message. They looked at me like I was nucking futs. Any growing ministry puts a great deal of emphasis on music. Hillsong Church in Australia started out with about 130 people in 1988. It's in the UK and Kiev and has conferences that use about 5000 VOLUNTEERS for 25,000 attendees. It remained relatively small until they made Darlene Zchech the worship pastor.

Because it takes a number of years to get up to speed if you've had no experience being on a board. The other issue is they put people on the board they felt they could work with and now those relationships are shattered. It's very sad. Unless things heal, Mark and Tom can be nothing more than irritants.

I think it is to a certain extent. It's not just Jeff's forced resignation, it was taking Dan out of the loop. I can guarantee you that he wasn't happy about that. I don't think she was any more involved than she's ever been, except as she felt her family was under attack. She has been a person of influence in the ministry - and a strong woman. That is a problem with many of them, which would put her under scrutiny. I really don't think she was any more 'out there' than she's ever been. Being on a volunteer board for a(n) NPO is always a thankless job. I simply don't do it anymore.

Sure they have. BUT it all goes back several years. 2006 was the first year Mark and Karen had no children at home and Mark and Karen's relationship changed. Rather than blame the 'problem' on the events that caused some of the changes - it's easier to blame it on Karen Anne. I can also guarantee that Jeff wasn't real happy with Nate or Anita working there, but they're good kids and they brought a great deal to the table for people of their age. Jeff doesn't deal well with strong women in times of disagreement. He's clashed with every woman that's worked in the office. It is a great 'guy' environment. Someone else mentioned everyone resigning. That has to be the most ridiculous thing I hear when things like this happen. Boards are about policy and procedure. The board stepped out of it's legal realm when it tried to manage daily functions. I wish they would learn how a(n) NPO is supposed to function.

I am talking about the people from CES/STF who have come on here masquerading as others dumping little crumbs of information taken out of context and spun to get you guys all up in a fervor. If you support Mark and he's gone - there goes the money. Better to make Mark the villain so financial support doesn't suffer. FWIW, I know all these people personally. ALL of them. I live in Indy. I supported the ministry in a very tangible way through taking care of the computer systems as a friend, supporter, volunteer, and as a paid vendor. As an on-the-outside insider I knew about more than any of you could ever imagine. These are things I will not dispute. I will not dispute anyone's sincerity. No one set out to do anything (ministry wise) other than learn and teach what they believe to be God's Word. I will not dispute that every last one of them thinks they are right. I will not dispute that each of them lacks critical thinking skills in key areas. I will not dispute that each one of them is capable of going off on a tangent and unfortunately a lot of people follow. This is what I know as true: JAL should have NEVER married Elizabeth, or Liz as she was known in her former town. He didn't know her well enough and her baggage proved to be a greater obstacle than he ever imagined. Marrying her ripped his family apart and continues to do so to this day. She is an incredible, articulate woman who also has some real issues. He was warned. I warned him. I wasn't getting a good vibe about it at all. I don't dislike her. I have no issues with her. But the situation is not all as she would like you to think. I personally believe the personal prophecy thing was a poor way to handle the situation with EL. First of all, it kept people from dealing directly with her behavior and acting on that. The prophecies became the center of attention and the lack of credibility in using personal prophecy as some sort of a valid means for determining truth or intent has caused a lot of problems. It kept her from receiving much needed help. She's been able to use this as fodder when the best course of action would be to receive professional help from trained individuals who know how to deal with her types of issues. They (the prophecy council) were all in over their heads and they should have acknowledged that and stepped away. JAL is an energetic, charismatic man who isn't above using his considerable influence. He can get ticked off if you don't fall into line with his thinking, but he can also be reasoned with - after a while. He needs someone to get in his face from time to time. I've done it. I did it over Momentus. But John is also easily influenced by smooth talkers and people who's intellect he respects. This has not always serve him well. John S is a very intelligent man who is also incredibly naive in some areas of life. I marveled that a man who could see things with great clarity in some areas, like bible research, could be so totally clueless in other areas. That focus allows him to pursue the Word with passion, but that kind of focus also means that he really misses signals from people that are obvious to others. He really needs someone to interpret some of the nuances of what goes on in the office for him because he is oblivious and has no idea. He doesn't 'get' office politics. He will be a president in name only, which is probably what Dan and certainly Jeff want. Mark is also very intelligent. He is reflective and quiet. He hates confrontation and will buckle until it becomes unbearable and then seem totally out of line when he does take a stand. That's probably what you are seeing with the defamation of character suit. I can tell you that if he feels inclined to do this - it's for a very good reason. This is so uncharacteristic of Mark that whatever provoked him to do this was more than he could bear. My experience is that Mark was more reasonable, more approachable, less judgmental, more patient, more humble, and kinder than anyone else in there. The others are not bad people, but Mark is pastoral. I'm really not getting where people think that Mark is punitive or unreasonable. When Mark 'fired' Dan (Dan was not being paid) and asked Jeff for his resignation, it was because the situation had become unmanageable from his perspective. This was not a sudden thing, Jeff's relationships with other office staff had been a problem for a number of years and Dan was brought in to help manage that problem and bring a business perspective to the administrative side of the ministry that everyone could respect. Dan wanted to do that and bring Jeff along to manage the day-to-day office. In Mark's mind, Jeff was Dan's responsibility and Dan was letting Jeff run amok. If you didn't do what Jeff wanted, when he wanted it, and how he wanted it; Jeff became verbally abusive and the tone of the office had become very fearful under Jeff's management. Prior to Dan, Mark personally stepped in. I know he did it on my behalf many times. Many who stood up to Jeff were bullied out the door, or they were let go - as in my case. It was an ongoing issue that was tolerated because Jeff could get things done and Mark was pretty sure that Jeff's heart was in the right place. I know that because Mark and I discussed the situation on more than one occasion. I don't know a whole heck of a lot about Dan. He seems to be sincere. He also, to me, appears ethically challenged in areas. To me he has a warped sense of what is important in some areas of his life and a quick reply or reason when questioned. I think there's been enough duplicity in his life that has worked for him that he's comfortable with moving the ethical bars as need be. I don't think Mark, John, and John knew nearly as much about him as they thought they did. I think that the two Johns think they know Dan. I don't think they do. I think they accepted way too much on face value. I found him very charming, but I also found him a bit creepy. Jeff and I had a very interesting relationship. I like Jeff. He is willing to dig in and do whatever needs to be done. He can be very verbally destructive and cruel. It was obvious that he loves the ministry and he was thrilled with what we were able to do with the Biblical Unitarian web site and the TorT site. He was very excited about the outreach created by those sites. On the other hand, I will never trust the man again. He has done things to me that cannot be overlooked. He is not a victim in this situation. He is very much an instigator. I warned Mark of the possibility of this whole effort to bring Jeff along eventually blowing up in his face. It was clear to me that Jeff's methods would cause more harm than good in the long run if allowed to continue. Mark was just as convinced that Dan could keep it under control and that with Dan's help, Jeff would develop some people skills and flourish. Apparently everything was OK for a while, but the whole thing broke down last summer, which resulted in Dan being asked to leave. In the early fall, Jeff had what appeared to be an epiphany and everything was fine - for about a week. It was after the relapse that happened after the epiphany that Jeff was asked to resign. Some in the office would argue that Mark just wasn't patient enough. Mark didn't feel that he needed to be patient any longer. He's all for longsuffering, but I think he'd gotten to the point where he thought everyone had suffered long enough. Mark called me late Sunday afternoon to apologize. I didn't recognize the number and didn't take the call. He left a detailed message indicating that he was sorry for not heeding my warning back in early 2005. I returned Mark's call and we had a very nice talk. Mark didn't go into a lot of details with me beyond the basic time line that I've shared here. He didn't have to. I had been a personal witness to and personal receiver of what Jeff was capable of doing. Then I came out here and saw the rest of this crap and many of you having a field day about this. Over the last few days I've picked up the phone and have spoken to several others directly involved on both sides because I have relationships with all of them that didn't go away when I was let go. My take on it is that Mark's firing Dan and asking Jeff to resign is so uncharacteristic of Mark that neither one of them can believe that he came to that conclusion on his own or that their behavior merited his response because Mark has shown incredible restraint and compassion towards Jeff and unwavering trust in Dan's ability to deal with Jeff even as things started escalating. So, in Dan and Jeff's mind, it MUST be Karen Anne's influence. Mark on his own simply could not have gotten fed up, because Mark just doesn't get fed up. The reality is that John Lynn rarely involved himself in employee disputes nearly always deferring to Mark and his decisions; John Schoenheit is largely unaware of office dynamics and is usually in Bloomington; Gary and Karen Theisen live in Michigan and do not deal with day-to-day issues, which is appropriate; and Tom Resner, who is a business owner who understands employee dynamics - probably the only one who gets it, knows it's not his place as a board member to involve himself in the situation. Tom rightly supported Mark's right to solve this problem any way way he saw fit within legal boundaries - Indiana being an 'at will' employer state. JohnL had no say in the matter, and Dan's and JohnS's involvement clearly demonstrates why board members should not be paid employees or non-payed CEO's. Now I have NO idea how Elizabeth and John's situation, personal prophecy, and whatever else has been tied up into this has become part of this issue beyond a shift in the relationship between Mark and Karen that OFTEN occurs once the kids are out of the house - a shift in relationship that they have been open about with their peers - who in turn have used it against them. Personally, I think blaming Karen Anne and dragging her into this is a means of deflecting blame. I will tell you that Jeff is the KING of not taking responsibility for his actions. He blames everyone but himself. I have absolutely no problem with the notion that he projected all his issues as really being Karen Anne's fault or personal prophecy, but he and Dan were right there in the thick of it when the prophetic council put together their 'findings' about Elizabeth. Dan even conducted 'deliverance' sessions. Don't tell me that Karen Anne was 'out there' all by herself. They ALL were 'out there', and quite willingly. I'm here to tell you Jeff wasn't all that sympathetic towards Elizabeth in 2003 or when she worked in the office except perhaps in the context of miserable comforter. I was there. I saw what was going on. I know what Jeff does when he is privy to other people's weaknesses. I've confronted him about his behavior only to be told I'm possessed. Try working with someone who screams devil spirit every time you say something he doesn't agree with. It makes for a very odd work environment. Yes, this seems very over the top, but let's remember that this is a ministry - one that deals with broken and wounded people who mostly emerged from a controlling cult. To me, high needs and tremendous personal issues seemed to be a requirement to work there. Some of the younger kids were not so damaged, but everyone else was in need of 'services' to deal with their stuff. The ministry tried to fill that function, but sometimes that got in the way of actually getting work done. I am definitely not surprised by all of this. I am sad, but I also feel vindicated. I have told these guys for years that a strong dose of 'normal' would do them all a lot of good. I personally could not live and breath what they were doing on a daily basis. The intensity was just overwhelming for me. And from what I can see, that's not uncommon in church organizations where people burn out due to the emotional demands. Personally I don't know if the ministry will survive this latest blow. If it does,it's God's will. Mark needed to deal with this back in 2003-2004 when Jeff was really becoming unreasonable. As valuable as Jeff was, he was not indispensable, and should not have been treated as such and allowed to behave so badly. After my bad experience, I walked away and forgave them all even though I had made a significant personal and financial sacrifice for over 10 years for the sake of the ministry. I don't know what all of your personal stakes are in all of this. What I do know is that starting over in your 50's and almost 60's is not an easy thing. Mark and I talked about that briefly on Tuesday. He is sure the Lord will provide. It's been two years since I've stepped in the office or had any involvement in the ministry. I can honestly say I haven't missed it. Jeff made serving the ministry very difficult. And that's pretty much all I have to say about it.

According to the by-laws none of the three originating members can be removed. The board can't change any by-laws without unanimous board approval, nor can they remove a president without unanimous board approval. They can change out presidents at the annual meeting, which is why they waited until then. I think he would disagree that he was the betrayer. I would ask for you to enlighten me and the others exactly HOW he betrayed the others. He hasn't come on here posing as someone else dropping information about others. JS is good at research. There are other areas he struggles with, like reading people. Not individually. Employee salaries are a line item in the yearly financial statement to the partners.

Schoenheit is in, but believe what you want. JS is very good at what he's very good at - research. MG is NOT out. He's still on the board and for now will remain on the board. He can't be removed.

I guarantee it will be worded in a way that makes it sound like it was all Mark's idea.

Not to discount what you came up with, but Scripture teaches that water was "John's baptism" and while I am not one to defend VPW I think he is right that tongues is a better gauge of whether one has been spirit baptized, not that I go around speaking in tongues all the time. If you read ACTS you will find that Peter saw that people had received holy spirit before getting dunked in the water and then remembered that the Lord called water immersion John's baptism. Where I go to church they sprinkle and quite frankly I held out for a Jordan River baptism holding my husband's hand. I was unashamed and unapologetic about it to my ex-way friends and to my baptism buddies who couldn't believe I had never been baptized. When we sat down with Scriptures and I showed them why I hadn't done the water baptism, I never heard another peep out of them. I also do not believe that dunking qualified as going over to the dark side. The problem that I have with anyone insisting upon water is the Scriptures that show all those people receiving the spirit with no water in sight. The problem I have with someone insisting that water is wrong is that people did receive the spirit in the presence of water...including the Lord himself. What that tells me is that both ways work. The spirit isn't dependent upon the water. For me, waiting until the Jordan River made the ritual of water baptism far more meaningful for me at the point of my walk than what it would have meant had I experienced it as a child. Tzaia