Tzaia

My memory is that I had more than one corp and WoW person writing me asking for nothing more than stamps, paper, envelopes, and pens. When you don't have much of anything, then stamps are very costly. Stamps went from 6 cents to 15 cents during the 70s. If ABS had to be sent in every week using a money order that cost around 50 cents and stamps that cost around 10 cents each, that would be over $31 a year - or 7 hours of wages at minimum wage, or a week's worth of groceries, or 3 weeks of gas money - at least for me and my family during that time. That is not an insignificant to a person who is struggling to put food on the table, a roof over his/her head, and trying to get to work every day. If it was sent in once a month, then it would have been less costly - only $7 per year.

Mine does. CES did the same thing. We sent persona checks always, but we've itemized since we've owned a home since we've been married. We also never gave through the twig unless it was to help pay for something used within our twig or branch. We were told to do all sorts of things, but we ignored any directives which seemed unreasonable.

A lot of people started out with that same notion - we are really reading the Bible. Wow! This group has come up with some great stuff and presented it in a way that I've never gotten in a church environment. I really felt I was in more of a give and take environment. That was my hook. I personally never got the whole "Father in the Word" thing; too much like the pope. But I really liked the idea of studying the Bible in depth and discussing what I read. Ironically, the more I studied, the more I realized how many people were restricting their "study" to what happened to be taught in the tapes and discussion was limited to agreement with the teaching or how to practically apply whatever was taught. There was no evaluation of the accuracy, or determining whether some "private interpretation" on the part of the teacher had been used. I remember saying to my husband that I thought we were in a research and teaching ministry, but the lack of independent research and independent thought was unsettling. I thought I was joining a group of believers who were seeking to be smart about the Bible and therefore smart about life, but they really weren't using their heads in many areas of their lives. Ironically, many of those people were being rewarded by leadership and being made leaders, or made to feel important in other ways. Those of us who wished to remain independent were subtly (or not so subtly) told to toe the line, especially once LCM was at the helm. Once LCM took over, the whole leadership vetting process was a study in what not to do. Unfortunately, every splinter group out there has chosen to emulate LCM's openly yes-man mentality.

The problem is we will probably not really know who all went when it's all said and done, but I can say with reasonable assuredness that anyone from the "home" office or board will not have to pay if they go. Not that I particularly care, but you would think the money could be put to better use.

:biglaugh:

There's no mild about it. When I got out and saw that, in the scheme of things, TWI was never more than a Rhode Island of Christian organizations from a size perspective to begin with, and that LCM had basically turned it into Flint, Michigan, that's when I realized TWI is/was a cult. VPW, scoundrel as he was, had/has a loyal following. People overlook(ed) his flaws and TWI grew in spite of what he was doing behind the scenes. It was all based on his personality. He was probably too narcissistic to choose someone to succeed him who would take the spotlight off him, so he went for a "positional" leader who simply didn't have the personality to cause anything other than his south parts to rise and expand. Not only that, LCM being the narcissist he is, wasn't smart enough to simply emulate VPW as the chosen of VPW, he wanted to be revered for being him. The problem is that LCM came off as an arrogant butthole. VPW may have been an arrogant butthole, but he rarely came off that way.

Love them. I am dead serious. Love them. If anyone is still involved with TWI after all that has been revealed since 1987, if anyone still clings to the notion that TWI and any of its offshoots is in possession of or is able to teach the word as it has not been taught since the first century, then you are dealing with people who not only have a severe case of denial, they also just might enjoy the perceived persecution that confrontation of stinking thinking provides. But the best way to reach them is to love them and accept them where they are. waysider is also right. Many who remain involved in TWI do so out of a sense of fear, or are bordering on pathological need to be right. Either way it puts them on the defensive, which makes more than a few become pretty offensive. Another thing you might consider is the way the orthodox church treats those who don't (can't) accept the trinity as heretics, and we know that. Just as that is an important point of agreement among trinitarians, it's also an important point of agreement among non-trinitarians. Both sides question whether the other is actually a Christian. What I have tried to do to bridge that gap is make it a non-issue. I also have some specific ways of diffusing that particular argument. Since "right doctrine," "like-mindedness." and "rightly dividing the word" is highly valued within TWI, TWI holdouts tend to get into their fair share of doctrinal disputes and is suspicious of anyone who doesn't think like them. With my husband's side of the family, we just didn't discuss religion. On my side of the family, we (at my insistence) agreed not to talk about it. That way we were able to preserve relationships. So I would tell them that while I'm not interested in becoming involved in TWI, I do want a relationship. If they've been in a while, that will fall on deaf ears as bringing people on board is the primary objective, but they might eventually come around.

Did you eventually get the help you needed? Many people with mood disorders initially deny there are problems and organizations, such as TWI, allow people to live in that denial as the organization itself is in denial. The structure allows for many to exist and even thrive without counseling or medications. Some are able to "fake it 'til you make it." What is wrong is when that doesn't work and your "support" is a self-centered abusing control freak who claims to be acting within the boundaries of a group who is in denial about mental health issues. What is important to remember is there have been significant social stigmas attached to mood disorders that (have) interfere(d) with people seeking treatment even outside TWI, and it is not alone in pronouncing psychological problems as spiritual in nature. Potato, I am certainly not excusing the behavior of your husband or TWI in your situation. I am only pointing out that TWI isn't the only religious organization that is flawed in this area.

Good thing I had swallowed that Diet Coke.

I know this is kind of catty, but I have to say it. I was under the distinct impression from prior conversations that JWS believes he can teach Israel better than the guys who have been doing it nearly weekly for the past 20 years. What I do know is that they will not be able to go around without at least a driver. You can get around without a tour guide, but there are areas that are by appointment only, and it takes someone who knows the ropes to get around since 9/11 and I'm reasonably sure he hasn't been there post 9/11 mainly because he thought I was nuts for going there twice in 2004.

My "experience" (a little Momentus reference there) is that most tours that include a pastor either give deep discounts or with a minimum number, send them for free. I know that as it was that way on every tour I've taken. I know that one tour before they moved into the offices on 52nd street, a staff member and others went free of charge due to the number who signed up. Not if you don't have to pay for it

Yup, (reasoning goes...) as flawed as it is, it remains the best out there. I bought into that tripe for a long time after leaving. Then after the meltdown at CES, we did nothing because while TWI was really bad and CES was pretty bad, nothing else was worth the time. Then we picked a really big church. So big that we felt we were not under someone's watchful eye. And we decided to just be. A season of simply being made it easier to let go of all the notions that somehow there is "nothing else".

This is remarkable for its lack of information provided by STF even though they are conducting the tour. I spent about a half-hour looking for an itinerary and finally found one from the hosting company (who probably needed one to make the arrangements). However, there is nothing on either site about the types of hotels (which does matter in that part of the world). The time of year is interesting. It's pretty hot in the Middle East in June and tours are usually cheaper because of the heat, but the cost is as much as a November or February tour. So the tourist is asked to plunk down nearly $4000 per person (double occupancy) for unknown accommodations for a 2 week tour that has no readily available itinerary. It's limited to 45 people. Anyone up for an Israel tour? israel_flyer_2008.pdf

slightly Wasn't it the other way around? Doctrinal error always leads to practical error? That's the reason for the big push for "right doctrine" isn't it? I was remembering this weekend about not being able to "correctly" refer to the Christmas holidays as being centered around the birth of Jesus because he was supposedly born September 11. It was correct to refer to the holidays as "household holidays" and to leave the Christmas out of it in order to be correct in our doctrine. Therefore, the "right" doctrine led to "right" practice. I don't recall the day or time when I finally quit believing that right doctrine and right believing was more important than loving one another, but when I finally came to that conclusion, I lightened up considerably. I don't care how many were crucified, how many magi or kings there were - or when they showed up, when Jesus was born, whether its proper to baptize with water, or if we are "sleeping" or in heaven after death. I believe that if my focus is on those things then I'm probably not doing too well in the loving one another category, which is central to the Christian faith along with believing that Jesus is the Son of God and that God raised Him from the dead, highly exalted Him and seated Him at His right hand. Even if TWI has become less confrontational with its rank-and-file as it's poking around in the rank-and-file's personal lives, it is still highly confrontational with the rest of the body, and that I can do without.

I know your question was rhetorical, but here's what I have to say about it: I asked that question back in 1979. I was told that paying for the class "gave it value" to the student (or whatever we were called). I was told there were too many instances of people taking the class for free and then not staying around to "move the Word." Ok, was that a problem with recruits or material? I wasn't going to pay the $100 (soon to be $200) to find that out. What amazed me was 2 things: 1. The utter lack of compassion for a single mother with limited finances. It was as if I shouldn't be concerned with how I was going to get to work and how I was going to feed my kid over spending money that I did not have to take a class that I could not see being able to afford in the foreseeable future. It's not like I had the "benefit" of understanding the concept of believing=receiving, but I was talked to like this was a practice that should be already operating in my life. 2. No scholarships. If someone was offered a free pass to take the class, I was unaware of it. I specifically asked for a scholarship and was told about the too many instances of people taking if for free then squandering the "opportunity" line of reasoning. I told my sponsor that I had no intention of spending $100 to take a class, much less $200, and had I known when I signed the "green card" that a "donation" was actually a required amount, I would have never signed the card. In my mind a donation is what it's defined as in the dictionary. That was my first experience with TWI's habit of changing common meanings to fit its particular circumstances. I was also told I had made a commitment that I needed to honor. I felt that perhaps a 3 day "cooling off" period was applicable as I had felt under a tremendous amount of pressure to sign the "green card" while not understanding what I was committing to. The level of pressure made me very squeamish about becoming involved and I signed the card to get her to leave me alone. Then I started getting pressured to cough up the money. Then I reminded her that, according to the "agreement", I had a year. Then I was told the price was going up in August. I told her not according to what I signed, and if the document binds me to taking the class, then it binds TWI to the "donation" amount of $100. I said that if I am supposed to take the class then God Himself is going to have to provide the means because I'm not going to do it, nor am I going to worry about reneging on a "commitment" that I felt was made under duress and was being reneged on by TWI. Nothing about the whole process felt right.

Duh!! They do it because they "can." No one complains; no "foul". This is considered a civil matter and more than a few people have to complain and file suit before authorities step in.

You mean beyond the notion that they don't believe in loans or credit?

You know how German Baptists, Amish, and Mennonites have a certain style of dress that sort of reflects their "glory days"? That seems to be what is going on with TWI. The hair isn't as "big" like in the 80s, but they are definitely stuck in time.

VPW said, "You can't go any further than what you know." He also said, "Learn to read what's written on the page." I personally found those two sentences compelling, and I found it interesting that he said those things and then did opposite of what he said. What I found was that "what you know" was constrained to what was taught through TWI and "what's written on the page" was through the eyes of a TWI person who was "properly" instructed in "rightly dividing the Word" and supposedly not subject to "private interpretation." I chose to live by a more literal interpretation of what VPW said. I did my own study and came to my own conclusions, which were not the conclusions of TWI's "researchers." I was amazed at some of the conclusions, particularly the last book on Romans and submitting to authority, but I was never one to go along to get along. JAL was raised in a decent, large, and affluent church, but I doubt if it was "on fire," as that's not a word used to describe Presbyterians. I'm sure TWI was far edgier at the time. However, I know a few people from his former church and they aren't as he described, but then again he hasn't been involved in that church since the 60s. I didn't know JAL during his TWI days (although I knew his family fairly well), so I can't comment about how he was in TWI beyond how I hear he was with my husband over taking medication (which JAL apologized for doing). I also agree with how CES disciplined him. He was not involved with anyone in a predatory sexual activity category like what took place in TWI, but CES has taken a pretty firm stance on sexual purity and JAL chose to ignore that standard. Out of the whole bunch at CES, JAL was the only one who has ever called me and asked me how I was doing and didn't want something in return. What I alway gave JAL was my listening ear and my honest opinion. I have told him on more than one occasion that he needed to step away from what he was doing to gain some sort of perspective. He could never bring himself to do that. Nevertheless, I do not doubt his sincerity, but based on that letter, he appears to be more and more isolated from the outside world, IMO.

I doubt if the thread belongs here at all. The title itself was "political" and WD didn't turn it into a political debate. He disagreed with a comment. I agree with WD. Calling an 8 point difference a "landslide" is not an accurate portrayal of the outcome if you take statistical analysis seriously. WD is not deserving of less respect because of his(?) differing opinions. Heck, I heard enough of that when I was involved in my former religious organization (that wasn't). If we feel free to disrespect others differing views and ideas, how does that make us better than the tormentors of our former religious organization? Someone commented that Bush got more respect when he was elected (2000 or 2004?). Really? Obama has been elected to lead a country that in the last 8 years received its worst attack by a foreign nation on its own soil in over 200 years and is now fighting 2 wars as a result; weathered several natural disasters; and is in the midst a housing and banking disaster that was put into motion over 20 years ago; along with a cyclic economic recession. He's got himself into one hot ghetto mess. Now it's time to put all the talk into action. I wish him all the best.

I see a lot of posts from people who have been hurt and abused by leadership in TWI. What I was wondering is if any of the former leaders who did the hurting are here, and if so, how have you dealt with the pain you caused? The reason why I ask is that I have had only one person who did anything to me directly offer an apology for her bad behavior. One girl, who had tried to keep me from marrying my husband, apologized for interfering with my life. I have heard excuses for bad behavior, but no apologies except for the one. In a couple of cases I actually sought the person out to see what they had to say, but without exception they blamed the organization and would take no responsibility for what came out of their mouths. What is your experience?

Yes they do always work themselves out - just not always how we plan for the outcome. Jeff must learn to live within the parameters of the situation, seek wise counsel, and document all these instances of his ex wife's conditioning their child against him. That kind of documentation can be used in a court of law to retrieve his son from that environment. Jeff can prove that he is able to provide a more emotionally and physically stable environment for his son if he is willing to do the work. Jeff can also do some things now - such as have a private conversation with his ex and tell her that he has made a decision, for the sake of his child and the child's relationship with his mother, to not disparage his mother in front of the child, and ask that she do the same. If she chooses not to go along with his (Jeff's) request, he (Jeff) will interpret that as a deliberate action on her part to psychologically damage the child and he (Jeff) will take any action that is legally appropriate to protect his child. Jeff can also expose his boy to more normal activities, such as regular church, team sports, and the things that regular people do. It will not take long for his son (who sounds very smart) to rebel against the constraints of a cult mentality, which might cause mommy to start acting out. Then he can get his kid out of there a lot quicker. The damage becomes irreparable only when you believe it is so. The truth is that the brain and the being of humans is far more resilient and able to redirect than ever imagined. The same thing that sucks people into a cult mentality can be used to release someone from the mentality.

Maybe emergency preparedness will be taken up a notch.

The fact that you knew it was his birthday and remembered it is - I don't know - giving him more thought than he deserves?

Jeff, So what if they talked behind your back? Doesn't that reflect more on them than on you? If they didn't give you the opportunity to defend yourself against the things they said, doesn't that reflect more on them? As far as your son, many parents put their children in the middle, which is wrong. Unfortunately, your wife is hooked up with people who "demonize" anyone who is not a part of their group, so that is how she wraps her mind around how she speaks about you in front of your son. Your wee one may be fooled by his mother's bad mouthing, but just hang in there - these things have a way of working themselves out. Why try to second-guess someone else's intent? You can't arrest on intent unless it's acted upon. As you found out, you didn't need to have a talk with law enforcement - they already knew what was going on with your splinter.