Tzaia

I don't know why you felt the need to attack me. I didn't lie. I don't profess to speak for the current situation. I only speak from my personal experience, which you confirmed.

Wouldn't that fall under the category of idolatry? Of course it was only idolatry when it was aimed at Jesus. Idolizing Vic or any of the other high-ups was not only nice, it appears to have been a requirement.

I'm leaning more towards rump. He wasn't the first to make things up. He probably won't be the last. But what is fantastic is that no one is required to believe his drivel. People can walk away and make a decision not to fear repercussions from God himself over the decision to put themselves out of (spiritual) harm's way.

You mean the idea of calling the cross "the devil's dog whistle?" I have a hard time wearing symbolic jewelry of any kind, except for the kind that says my husband or I dropped a wad of cash on some jewelry.

You'd think so, wouldn't you? But morality and purity are the marks of a newbie in der verd. Once you have ingested the "milk," then apparently you move on to "meat" which includes girls, other people's wives, and indentured servitude, so that at least someone is receiving the "more abundant life." Oh, and Mike, the mental gymnastics one must do to solve the mystery of "apparent contradictions" is largely unnecessary. The contradictions aren't "apparent;" they are real and can't be massaged to the place where they fit without creating a new narrative, which kind of defeats the purpose of "sola scriptura." What VPW did was create a new narrative, particularly when it came to the gospels. The other area that he took special license in was his interpretation of government in Romans, the concept of private interpretation, and what scripture was considered "God breathed". But I don't want to confuse you with facts. What VPW did (and I don't really care whether is was by mistake or by design) was do what every other denomination has done, which has treated scripture like an ala carte menu, only he spiced up his take with phenomenon and revelation.

I got through the whole thing - derail - ranting and railing - and all. First of all - we were all pretty stupid back then. Young and invincible. The only two people I ever knew who wouldn't let someone ride in the back of the pickup truck was my dad and my husband. We all did it. It was fun. I knew people who used lawn chairs as seating in their van. It was safer to sit on the floor, but safer still to ride in another vehicle. They never got why. As for TWI, we were all part of something we believed was bigger than us. Lesson learned - it was so big for some that some were actually devoured. That is a shame. I am sort of confused about the timing of Rochelle's death. I don't have the same frame of reference so the time is not so clear. I can remember many of the Indiana LC, but without a year I have no idea who sent this young girl on her way. Could someone PM me and tell me who it was? FWIW, our recent senior pastor used to be the youth pastor at our church. Under his watch, they did all sorts of crazy stuff that would never fly in today's world, and they did it under the watch of a presbytery that didn't think a thing of it. Thankfully, no one was seriously hurt, but a few bones were broken. We live with far more awareness of personal safety and just take more precautions. TWI doesn't hold the playbook on stupid, and apparently lessons were learned. It was simply an unfortunate accident that no one knows for sure could have been avoided. Head injuries and injuries in general are better understood now than back then. It was natural to shake off a head injury and keep a person in bed for months with a hip fracture. Now we understand the importance of resting a head injury to keep the swelling down. and getting a person moving who has fractured a hip. Overall, I am simply amazed at the threshold of pain, deprivation, physical, and emotional abuse all of you corp people endured. I knew I didn't have it in me and didn't even try. Every time I read one of these accounts, I just feel overwhelmed with awe - really. There should be a tremendous sense of accomplishment for having pushed yourselves the way you did. It really is a shame that it was done mostly to satisfy the ego of a narcissistic sociopath, and his band of willing cohorts, but in all honesty you all did so very much with so very few resources. It is amazing. Each one of you was overworked, half starved, under appreciated, and never good enough - but you hung in there on the premise that it was for something greater than yourself. I honestly do believe that does count for something.

Lame, yes. Had it been a slick production, that would have been pointed out as well. Either way, they're not going to see many converts here - then there's that age requirement which is a deal breaker for most of us.

http://www.guidetopsychology.com/forgive.htm It is very different. It has also somehow become part of the Christian values that expects people to forgive, forget and reconcile when the offender has only done the forgetting part and expects reconciliation because they are Christians. What a crock of crap.

When did you realize that? While you were in, or has that been in retrospect?

Many of us became involved with TWI because we felt "called" to do so. People went WoW. People joined the Corp. People gave up almost everything to do what they believed they were "called" to do. I sense that at some point this calling became drudgery for most. Perhaps you didn't acknowledge that until you were gone, but for those who acknowledge it had become drudgery, how many of you stayed in spite of the drudgery? When did nearly endless opportunities to gather with like-minded believers (calling) turn into mandatory meetings (drudgery). When did thinking outside the box (calling) turn into being told what to think (drudgery). When did doing what you loved to do (calling) turn into to doing what someone else wanted done (drudgery). When did working to further a belief and for a cause (calling) disintegrate into going through the motions or risk being berated (drudgery)? When did calling turn into drudgery?

Some of them have (at least in denominations) gone to a place of higher education that teaches something about the bible. Far too many get by on the basis of personality.

Obviously you weren't getting something right. (tongue firmly in cheek)

Why are you avoiding a conversation? I'd just say I noticed some rituals (habits) had changed and what's up with that? They may or may not wish to discuss it.

Not according to what's written on the page. He (Jesus) didn't forgive them. He (Jesus) asked his father to forgive them. Furthermore, this asking of "forgiveness" was not recorded in any of the other three accounts. Doesn't that sort of take away from the "established" doctrine of 2 accounts? Furthermore, the idea that he forgave them directly contradicts his earlier teaching of forgiving after being asked to forgive and repenting, which in turn contradicts his other teachings on the same subject. The reality is that Jesus doesn't teach forgiveness the same way twice, except in a "Lord's Prayer" sense and doesn't practice any form of his ideas about forgiveness at times where he could provide clarity by using his personal life as a guide. For example, He didn't tell Thomas he forgave him for not believing when Thomas obviously saw the error of his ways. He admonished Thomas for having to see before he believed. I believe that would have been a good teaching "moment" on forgiveness. There is a full gamut of how forgiveness is interpreted and practiced. It is definitely not a "one size fits all" sort of thing. I think this is the crux of the matter. Over and over in my head I have asked how far all this would have gone if people would have simply put their foot down at the first signs of inappropriate behavior? I had personally experienced bad behavior escalate when it wasn't nipped in the bud and I didn't want to live like that, so I took steps to nip it in the bud when I saw it. It is what it is and nothing is going to change the past. An apology might bring meaning to the past, or might bring closure to the past. I think that is what people are looking for.

Stinkin' thinkin' I presume...

I'm not sure money is an issue. He's probably well aware of the finances. Maybe he's looking for a public apology from JAL and JB, since JB is most likely the one who leaked the documents to CC. Growth? I doubt it. People at the top have been hit hard with personal issues. It is also hard to grow when you can't delegate, don't trust, and have a paranoia streak. But other than that, I'm sure everything is peachy.

Out of curiosity I looked at the local county court records and there is still a lawsuit between the MG-KAG and JAL. The case appears open concerning the G's and JB as well.

Oh, I get it, the grace thing.

Yeah, actually I use that sort of stuff to lead in to what I really want to do, which is shut them up. To someone who would answer clear scripture with that kind of logic, I would probably (and have) say (said) something along the line of it being a weak argument and since you (apparently) can't do any better than that, then let's agree to disagree.

Gosh I wish I had been better at messing with heads back in the day. Here's what you can say for starters: "Please explain to me what lies you believe I'm being told at my church and how simply opening up to someone else's ideas about God lacks benefit? Isn't that what you are asking me to do? Perhaps after you attend my church you can tell me what all is wrong with it, but to refuse to reciprocate seems a bit narrow in your thinking, don't you agree?" "I feel very stressed when I talk to you about these things. I'm sorry, but in my mind that sends up red flags, and you aren't helping to alleviate that stress by basically telling me my beliefs are a lie." Not leaving much opportunity to openly discuss. My Bible says we see through a dark glass, which indicates that "truth" is rather elusive. I guess my question is how she can be so sure her way is, in fact, the only way? Has she considered any alternatives? Actually debating what one believes about the word is healthy. The word itself is not under fire; it is one's interpretation that is being examined. It appears she's unwilling to go beyond what she believes she knows as truth, but has no problem insisting that you do so. Wow. Some things haven't changed. I'd ask to see the chapter and verse(s) that say fornication is allowed under the present administration, and then show her these verses... Matthew 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 1 Corinthians 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 1 Corinthians 6:13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body. 1 Corinthians 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 1 Corinthians 7:2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. 1 Corinthians 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. 2 Corinthians 12:21 - 13:1 nd lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed. Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Ephesians 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Colossians 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: 1 Thessalonians 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. ...asking her how she can possibly know the "truth" of the word and ignore so many clear verses about sex outside of marriage.

One thing I always found amazing is the idea that God somehow has to talk to someone else about what is good for you without ever bothering to tell you the same thing. Just so you know in advance - you will never, ever meet a nicer group of people. They are so loving and so wanting to be your friend that they will fawn and flatter you - making you feel very special indeed. In fact, you will instantly acquire a whole group of new best friends. You will find out that the only thing that could possibly make your new friendships tighter is if you agree to take this special class. If you don't agree immediately, then you will start getting all kinds of calls and notes telling you how special you are and how blessed you will be if you'll only take this class. The other thing is that you won't even begin to get an idea of what she believes from attending a twig. Most of it will be unintelligible because twigs don't operate along the lines of a "seeker" service where the message is simple and clear. In fact, the only way you can decipher what is taught in a twig is by taking whatever the class is called. If you do ask a question, you will be told that the class will answer all of your questions. If you do go and decide not to continue, you will probably lose your friend and roommate because you will show yourself as true devil material. I think it would be interesting to see how long you can string her along without her getting totally exasperated with you, but then again I've been known to enjoy messing with people's heads.

Interesting topic. I do have some questions. Could you merely attend twig without ever taking the class? Could you go WoW with nothing more than the foundational class? Was there ever a time you could enter corp with only the foundational class?

Gawd, I had no idea used grounds were used with salt! I just thought people had no idea how to make coffee. I started bringing and making coffee so it wouldn't be so bad. I also remember Styrofoam cups. I don't drink out of them if I can avoid it. I brought my own cup and my own sweetener because I didn't expect people to cater to my tastes. Most times I brought the half 'n half because I don't do creamer, either. The one class I helped on I bought and made all the coffee after the first pot of really bad stuff was served to the guests. All the team was expected to chip in for refreshments. Most of us were young and just starting out with not a lot of money to burn on non-essentials. I was pretty frugal myself in those days, so I didn't notice it so much.

Too young to realize what's really up.

You need to read what's written on the page. I wasn't referring to my situation specifically. I was referring to the cost of food, gas, and wages in general, and how the cost of weekly mailing ABS could affect the average person working for minimum wage. You were saying it was no big deal and I was quantifying the accumulated costs. If you want to spend money on coffee and you figured out a way to keep the costs down that worked with HQ, more power to you. Other's didn't feel they had choices. I don't believe in the tithe now and I didn't then, either. I believe charity begins at home, particularly when I saw OPM being squandered on Harley tours.