Tzaia

The directors for NPO's provide oversight, vision, and fundraising. It is not a "family" business, so keeping family on the board is not necessarily in line with the proper running of a not-for-profit church like TWI is (supposedly).

Jeff, I don't know the context that VPW had in mind when we were admonished to make the scriptures our own, but as a singer, the need to "own" the song to sing it well is the context that I have always operated. When someone "owns" a song, what is heard is the difference between someone who sings songs and someone who uses songs to draw the listener into the experience. The song "owner" puts the self into the song and brings a new result. Just based upon what I observed in the 70s and 80s, that was not what VPW meant by "making it your own." I have no idea what he meant.

I believed it until some TC made a comment about our abundant sharing (or lack thereof - according to them). My first comment was where they had gotten that information as there was supposedly no membership or tracking of people and that what we gave was none of their business. From that point forward, I knew it was a lie from hell - another one-liner.

My first exposure to "You'll be a grease spot by midnight" was here on this forum. We had quit going after an adultery between 2 families had driven one of the spouses to suicide - leaving 2 families devastated. We were done with all the craziness and had been attending a regular church. One day a letter arrived from LCM - not a personal letter, but one of those missives after the great exodus of 1987. He was ranting about homosexuals - maybe something else, but I remember the homosexual thing most. I tended to think he was a bit of a ranter anyway compared to VPW, but this was way too much. I don't remember how I did it - whether I called or wrote, but I asked to be removed from any future mailings. Even though I had tuned out much of what I felt was intrusion over the years, I just didn't need to hear it any more to tune it out.

It wasn't LCM who said this (it was either before he took over, or shortly after), it was our Limb Coordinator. Again, this wasn't a "biblical" standard by which you base a belief, it was an opinion that somehow took on a life of its own. To the best of my knowledge, no one was sitting the guys down and talking about this marital benevolence being a two way street. It was presented to me as being part of the virtuous woman standard.

I don't remember having taken it. If I did, it wasn't noteworthy. I do remember our LC being invited to a ladies breakfast to talk and how he went on and on about how a guy needs to be relieved every 72 hours. All I said was "chapter and verse" (which belongs in one-liners) and that had to be the most unreasonable, selfish thing I had heard. Nothing about what was good for women. I came home and asked my husband if that was the kind of crap taught in CF&S.

PFAL=the word I guess that's no more ludicrous than LDS's Book of Mormon, or JW's tracts and rewritten KJV, or Islam's Koran. Make no mistake - no one outside those sects swallows that hook, but it seems every sect has it's "sacred" writings. I was wondering who all thought at one time that PFAL=the word?

Actually, skyrider was sharing Mike's (and apparently other's) opinion about what Mike (and others) believes the written PFAL is. Mike has come to the conclusion that the written PFAL is God's word and that it was kept secret, but alluded to by VPW when he said that all translations and versions have errors and are therefore not God-breathed. On the other hand, apparently the written PFAL has no errors and is therefore God-breathed. Do you believe PFAL is error-free?

I didn't say sin taints truth. I said the unwritten things taint truth. Now if I knew that all these people involved in writing the Bible were actually living a lie and held themselves to a different standard, I would take anything written by them with a grain of salt. Do I believe they were sinless? No. I do believe that motive must always be considered. He wasn't honest. He isn't the only resource available. There are far better role models to emulate.

The sins of the teacher should prompt a more critical review of the teaching. VPW's teachings were critically reviewed outside of TWI and people did find fault with those teachings. Those were the known entities. The unwritten teachings were his undoing - the things that didn't leak out until his death. Those unwritten things tainted any "truth" he taught. Since most of what he taught was not his to begin with, there is no problem going back to the original author. Even then I've rejected much of that as being unnecessary in the larger scheme of things.

The whole idea behind PFAL and "How to Enjoy the Bible" was to introduce people to a method to use when studying the Bible. VPW borrowed heavily from Bullinger and others in developing his method. Based upon this method, VPW came to different conclusions than mainstream Christians. Funny thing is that none of these things change the basic tenants of the Christian faith except for the non-trinitarian thing. It all just becomes points of disagreement. His basic premise is that they have to agree. What amazes me is the lengths that he went to in trying to get the scriptures to "agree" when they clearly don't. I used to believe agreement was necessary, but now I don't. The reason why I don't is because studying with that in mind keeps me from the bigger picture and the simple truths. I used to defend the logic, but once I saw the level of discord it creates, I had to let it go. So Mike, my only rule of faith and practice is to love God and love others in an agape kind of way. Those 2 things make everything else pale in comparison.

What do I believe... I believe that by definition it is impossible to "prove" a "miracle" because by design miracles are supernatural and cannot be replicated. I believe that the only way Vic thought he could garner attention for his beliefs was by invoking a miracle because miracles involve some idea of specialness. I believe many people were impressed by the notion that all of this came about through a miracle. Perhaps Vic believed the "miracle" brought legitimacy to his "ministry." I believe the miracle can't be verified independently, so the only proof is provided through the single witness. When Vic was believed to be a credible person, it was easy to belief his narrative (although I question how people who knew how he was could believe him). Once he was publicly exposed, his credibility fell into the potty, so his experience is suspect. I believe there are people here who want to look past the person and his personal walk when others believe the designation MOGOTW held him to a higher standard even in his private life. Based on his private life I believe he manufactured the whole thing, but told it so often he eventually believed it.

TWI has no members, no membership. We don't keep track of anyone.

I just finished reading Bart Ehrman's Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium. Oxford University Press, USA. 1999. ISBN 0-19-512474-X. It gets into John the Baptist, a little on the Essenes, and the Pharisees. Interesting read.

I notice you didn't ask me, but I'll fill in the gap... The answer is none. The only book from the OT not found was the book of Esther. There were no NT texts because the Essenes were not followers of Jesus. I've seen some of the fragments at the museums in Jerusalem. There's a pretty decent museum at the site. The finding of the scrolls did prove that OT scribes did a pretty good job of keeping the text intact through the centuries. Some of the best intact NT manuscripts have been found in various regions of Egypt. The compilation of those manuscripts seems to vary from region to region in what was the Roman Empire.

Well you haven't. But just so you know, the term research has an implication of some level of scholarship. He didn't claim, like Jim Jones or other cult leaders, to receive direct revelation from God on all points he was teaching. He invoked research and scholarship as a way of giving credibility to what he was doing. VPW's claim was that he would be able to teach scripture with a first century understanding from the scriptures themselves. He claimed to use certain rules of engagement to do so, which implies an academic standard. Then he invoked Greek and Hebrew, which again implies some level of demonstration of scholarship or mastery of a subject. You say he made no claims about being a scholar. Perhaps it was in a self-deprecating way. I don't know. But I do know he wanted to be THE credible person to teach "the accuracy of the word" "as it had not been done since the first century." While telling us all that we could not pick and choose by invoking the "all scripture" clause. Then he told us that everything prior to Acts 2 was "for our learning." Then he backpedaled by going back into a previous administration and invoking tithing and taking it to a new level (abundant sharing), which in turn broke his own rule about adhering to God's standard as opposed to man's under-reaching and over-reaching tendencies. So, what I believe is that VPW did and said whatever was expedient and fit with his particular goals and desires. He wanted people to believe he was a farm-boy who had received a doctorate, but he wasn't a scholar. However he (supposedly) had a grasp of Greek and Hebrew and an understanding of scripture not seen since the first century, while simply receiving revelation. He was pretty sure he could get what he wanted by simply believing for it, but it took a miracle of snow on the pumps from God to get his attention. The scriptures themselves state there is nothing new under the sun. The best he might have done is put a new spin on old ideas.

But he didn't make clear what stuff wasn't original thought and he didn't give credit for his unoriginal thought, as a scholar would do. I have about 2000 books, reading up to 4 a week. It took years. Hauling 3000 books to a dump would not be trivial. I find it hard to believe he studied 3000 books and then threw them away.

I have read his stuff and I have read other's work. He really has no new light on the subject. I've found Bart Ehrman's work to be very enlightening.

And "all without exception" or "all without distinction" http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=4680

If someone has his stuff in digital format and wants to PM me with that information or where I can locate it, I can run it through TurnItIn and see where it turns up.

The poll thread was getting very derailed by discussion of the "Orange" book, so I'm starting a new thread. Mike quoted: Since I have taken up research, I was astounded that this statement was written with no citation. Actually, there isn't a citation in the entire book, but that's beside the point. It is an inaccurate statement. Greek was the common administrative and written language for the entire region. This is historic fact. Most of the people of that day were illiterate. This is also historical fact. People who spoke Aramaic probably couldn't read it, much less write it down as it was primarily an oral means of communication. I believe statements such as the one in red was just the beginning of how VPW started romancing people to his way of thinking regarding how the bible was to be read and interpreted. Back when he wrote the book, it was pretty hard to check that little tidbit against other sources. Now there is a wealth of information available, and it's usually free. MIKE: the fact that you aren't looking at that information that has come out largely since you started studying TWI materials exclusively does not reflect well regarding your scholarship, especially since VPW admonished us to not take his word for things. Read his stuff and study it, but to do it without a critical eye is foolish. That lack of critical evaluation is what allowed the abuses to start and grow. Now that these tools are readily available for research, any discussion of VPW's "work" can and should be evaluated using standard methods of scholarship and critiqued accordingly.

I think the reference was to writing style. I've only read Bullinger and I don't agree with his ultra-dispensation.

The answer is probably not bigger, but similar. Through some serious missteps in the 90s through 2006 they lost many of the TWI people who wanted a similar experience without the crazy. The outreach is very much entrenched in TWI methods (a "class"), and since there is an internet, the element of surprise is gone. JAL, in particular, sees STF as being a haven for people who have left TWI, so the entire concept of a seeker type outreach is simply not there. I sincerely doubt if there are more than 5000 on the mailing/email list as the list was only slightly higher than that after the big exodus from twi in 1987, and numbers had decreased, not increased (at least through 2004). I doubt if the "partnership" program exceeds 600 members. One thing you can be sure of is unless it's something to boast about, you're not going to get any exact numbers from them. My information is only accurate through 2004.

Mike, I got rather early on that in TWI, "moving the Word" was actually getting people to sign up for the class. Having seen what I had gotten myself into, I really wanted to know exactly what was being taught before I blindsided anyone I knew with the boring and repetitious class. That's why I went through the books very carefully many times and my opinion, at the time, was that the books should be offered without the class because there were so many contradictions and if you took the class you might not read the books. It was clear to me that people had not read the books and I think that was by design. Since stepping further away and reading them even more critically, I can't recommend anything beyond perhaps JCOP, and even then I am hesitant because of his attempt to reconcile the two passion accounts when they are clearly different narratives and disagree about whether Jesus was crucified on the day of the Passover preparation or before. The narratives in the Bible simply do not agree and I (now) disagree with the idea they must agree. I cannot recommend any of his books for several reasons: He does not cite sources in his writing. He is divisive towards the body as a whole - clearly this stance conflicts with the message of Christ. He contradicts himself leading to confusion when he claims he's trying to clear up confusion. He preached 3 conflicting messages - one to the inner circle, one to the non-inner group, and still another to the unwashed masses. Any book presented as non-fiction, including the Bible, should be read critically - and he did that - but his main point was that his understanding was correct and everyone else's was wrong. He proof-texted with the best of them to support his beliefs, and ignored clear teachings by relegating them to "for our learning" to support his own agenda, while retaining others to support his agenda. I used to think that it was unnecessary to throw out the baby with the bath, but in the ensuing 15 years after I left TWI, no one was able to clearly define what the baby was. Based upon what I've seen in the splinters, the main "baby" that has been held onto is this need to be in possession of "the" truth, continue to deride the parts of the body that don't hold the same opinions (like-mindedness) (I don't agree with either side doing that, but it's far more out there with TWI and the splinters than in a standard denominational setting), and the need to separate from the body over issues of doctrine (rightly-dividing). I think those are not the right things to hold onto, and there's not much else besides that. My reality is that I can't find anything from the organizations worth holding onto, so I don't. It is clear to me that it was very important to VPW to be "credible" and in his mind that credibility included being a part of "signs, miracles, and wonders." He had to have a sign from God, and in true Bible fashion, he saw something that can't be independently confirmed. At one time there was no reason not to believe him because most of us didn't know about his secret life. Now that the secret is out, there's no reason to believe him. He turned out to be an non-credible witness for signs, miracles, and wonders because of his failed walk with God. It's as simple as that.

I sat through the class twice. Since it was repetitious and boring, that's all I needed to get the buzzwords and main points - especially since there were so few points. I read the books afterward and read them all again several times. Then I read them again. I have not looked at them recently because I doubt if I could come to any point of agreement at all since I started actually studying religion. It has nothing to do with VPW and his proclivities although that hurts his credibility. He missed the whole point. If you study NT and pay close attention to the very apocalyptic words of Jesus, VPW and TWI (and pretty much every denomination) has been so off base regarding Jesus and the "truth" that it's not even funny. If VPW had really been paying attention, every bit of that ABS would have been used to help the less fortunate - not build buildings, buy land, train corp, or used administratively or personally at all, because Jesus believed that there was nothing in this world worth acquiring and doing so would keep someone away from the kingdom. So Vic had it ALL wrong IMO. He compounded his woes in the coming kingdom by not heeding the words of Jesus regarding marriage and just about every other way he conducted himself. But that's just my opinion.