Tzaia

Brush - you here in Indy? The names sounded familiar. What "Matt" was talking about concerning Jesus is the concept of Jesus, in his exalted state, having a "functional equality" with God. It is very similar to the "economic trinity" of some trinitarian believers. Doctrine matters - a lot. The reason why they aren't attending a local church is that doctrine matters. It matters more than the 2 greatest commandments when it comes right down to it. To the rest of you - the dinner thing is not all that uncommon. These guys work, socialize, eat, and live with each other.

I was pretty stunned to find out that CES was privately promoting Momentus and privately singing the praises. ALL the principles still believed in 2004 that Momentus was a good thing even though it had sharply divided the local group.

I haven't attended a CES home fellowship in a while - more than 10 years. I did attend a leader's conference in 2004. They've definitely done a shift away from TWI and have more of an assemblies of god feel regarding worship. I don't know what to tell you - you are an adult and can make your own choices. I used to think that CES was pretty innocuous, especially compared to TWI, but I don't think that anymore. My main concern is that you appear to be a bit of a magnet.

I would disagree with the notion they have distanced themselves from Wierwille. They are still selling his books and calling them "landmark works". That's not distancing themselves - at least not how I understand the concept. TWI is not necessarily "hanging its hat" on VPW's name, but he's still an integral part of the ministry. Obviously LCM has been completely expunged from its history, but we're not talking about him.

I am not sure why, though.

I'm not a lawyer, but I believe TWI has a financial stake in VPW's "good" name <hack, cough> and could defend it as an heir (of sorts). He basically became a corporation and turned his assets over to the corporation, so the corporation has a stake in his name. I truly believe this is a can-of-worms they know they do not want to open because they know they could not win and it might drag even more mud into the mix.

Well if that's not a case of the pot calling the kettle black!! You started the confusion by stating that (in order to be fair) all are presumed innocent until proven guilty. Then when someone brought up Hitler, you backed off by limiting the idea to the US legal system (actually you are wrong about that because the Nuremberg trials were based on the same premise). You seem to ignore factual innocence and guilt, preferring a definition of legal innocence and guilt - knowing that he can't defend his honor. Well his family does have the right to and could defend his honor and integrity and have chosen not to do so - at least in a court of law.

BUT the phrase "presumption of innocence" ONLY applies to the judiciary process that assumes that most people are not criminals. As others have pointed out, the presumption of innocence is a legal statement, not a factual statement. A person can be legally innocent of a crime, yet be factually guilty. A person can also be legally guilty of a crime, yet be factually innocent. The statement "innocent until proven guilty" is not a standard that must be adhered to outside of its intended purpose - which is to give all accused the right to a fair trial. VPW is dead and can't defend himself against the accusations of sexual misconduct, which did not come to light until his death. However, the other allegations, such as his diploma mill doctorate and the plagiarism were never refuted by him - at least not legally. Furthermore, neither TWI nor his heirs have gone after anyone who has claimed sexual abuse at the hands of VPW. The reason why that has not happened (IMO) is because TWI and heirs would then have the burden of proof against the accusers. They weren't able to prove LCM's innocence against his accusers and ended up settling. Do you think TWI would fare any better if they were to take the offensive against posters here regarding VPW's behavior? Let me remind you that TWI has a low threshold of tolerance regarding being seen in an unseemly way (think Rocky Horror - AOTS and Talk Soup), so this ignoring the posts here IMO has more to do with no ground rather than taking any high road. I think that lack of action on the part of TWI and VPW's heirs should speak volumes to you or any of his apologists about where TWI and his heirs think they stand with regards to defending VPW's honor and integrity as the former president of TWI.

White Dove said: I think you've taken this over the top. Opinions do not need to have a legal verdict to meet the criteria of "fact". He is never going to face a trial by jury. He is never going to be able to defend himself. He can't be charged in absentia. It sounds to me like you are demanding that people use verbiage that leaves his guilt or innocence open for debate based solely on your experience (or in this case, lack of) and an impossible burden of proof.

You can't train raise up and train leaders the way TWI trained leaders and expect anyone to be prepared to take over. The proof is in the fruit. Not one person who went through TWI's formal leadership training has been able to rise up and take it forward. None of the people who formed splinters has risen to the occasion and the original group is a shell of itself.

He has a huge audience. He takes several hundred to Israel every year.

My intent was to understand and comment on my understanding, not judge. There was a lot of pressure to take all of it. People who did not take all of it then paid a price - then. The cost of holding back was big. Some left. Others put up with the belittling remarks. While others ignored the remarks. Those who did take it all paid a price then as well, but weren't aware of it at the time. Only through reflection have people changed their perceptions of that time. If it's any comfort, people on LDS missions have had similar tales to tell.

Absolutely! The only thing they did was stir the pot. These people aren't better off believing Jesus isn't God. Who knows? I just think it was very arrogant.

The "need" that they fill is the need to be right, practicing "correct" doctrine, yada yada yada. They don't really do missions. They were going over into the Philippines and did nothing more than stir up stuff and then left these people without a real support system. They're calling and writing begging for help because they've been persecuted out of their homes and are being beaten and tortured over doctrine, but there's no money for that.

For me, the trinity was a real stumbling block to being able to attend and worship at an orthodox church. The other thing was that basic lack of understanding about dialing it down for the seekers in the midst. There was a certain amount of elitism and thinking (on my part) that no one worked the word like TWI. Once I didn't feel the need to correct everyone's errors in doctrine, I was able to sit in a service and not pick the message apart. I know what I believe and why and that's all that matters to me. STF/CES does not have a mechanism in place to accept anything outside its own comfort zone until it has been distilled and reworked by one of them - with the exception of Momentus and I think that's only because Tocchini wouldn't allow it. They did it with personal prophecy. They do it with most other ideas as well. For example, DG has read at least one book on small groups, but instead of distributing that book or books and using them directly as a basis for running home fellowships, he borrowed the ideas and put together the same concept sprinkled with CESisms. There is not ONE radical never-before-contemplated-idea in any of its written materials. But churning out materials creates a revenue stream. One which doesn't even begin to match what TWI was bringing in, but it does pay the bills and keep a few people on staff. I would be more than willing to bet that privately they have kicked themselves for not marketing their class (and they do have one) like PFAL, denouncing the tithe, and somewhat playing by the rules. Money is a real issue and I don't think anyone really thought that one through to the extent that the tithe and PFAL paid the bills. Just my opinion.

He wrote "Let Go and Let God". Actually if VPW had paid more attention to the entire book and not just the parts that furthered his own agenda, we all might have had a different experience.

You accurately reveal the level of disconnect. I point-blank told JAL that all he was doing was providing a revenue stream for Dan T. and that it would cost him (JAL) his reputation. He didn't get that revenue stream part, so I'm assuming that he thought Momentus would do in one weekend what took TWI years to accomplish in its way corp program. He literally spent hours on the phone every day talking people into going through the Momentus experience. Why do that if you don't think you might personally benefit? I could never get him to say exactly why he felt this was something everyone he had ever had on his mailing list needed to experience (except his own parents), but the fact that it was something he could not recommend to his parents told me all I needed to know.

The offshoot that I was involved with did not say (outright) that churches were worthless. However, the offshoot I was involved in truly believed that what was taught in a church (any church) paled in comparison to what it brought to the table. My offshoot borrowed from churches heavily in terms of offerings like worship style and then distilled it for the offshoot's use. My former offshoot did not keep anyone from attending a church, but doing so marked you as an outsider. In its eyes, it was better to be an atheist than someone who had "defected" to a church. Just in case you didn't notice, you were critical of the church you visited and what you considered to be its watered-down message and method of delivery. What former Way people who remain firmly entrenched in the concept do not get is that most "corporate" services are what is referred to as "seeker oriented." Seeker services are designed to meet people where they are. There's no class that needs to be filled and taken in order to understand what is being taught. If one wants deeper knowledge, that's offered in small-group bible studies. A person attending a twig fellowship (at least when I was involved) had to take the class just to understand the jargon.

Because TWI took nothing. TWI didn't make the decision. TWI is not responsible for the outcome. I consider myself a very slow learner in that area because I spent several more years giving time and money to a splinter group before I got a total clue and walked away (other than posting here which I need to stop doing because it's nothing besides morbid curiosity that keeps me plugged in here). But I can't blame them for my bad choices.

So you sold a farm, left a great job, alienated your family to go out WoW. Apparently you figured none of those things were as important as going WoW. All these things were your decision to make. At the time it must have felt like the right thing to do, because on paper doing a SWOTT evaluation, it would not have looked right. The guy who left a great job at a local plant to enter the corp with his wife and baby thought it was a great idea as well. I was never convinced, especially after I saw how everyone who wasn't "someone special" lived. By the time I got involved in the way, I had pretty much discounted my feelings as being trustworthy for making decisions. Even now, every time I make a decision based on how I feel, it pretty much blows up in my face. Could it be that making decision on the basis of feelings is faulty? That's the first time I've heard of someone literally having a gun held to their head. I worked for a retail chain that had another store armed robbed. After I saw how that was handled at the corporate level, I resigned. If HQ did little beyond damage control, that would have been it for me. I am reasonably sure that many had the (paraphrased) whosoever doesn't hate their mother and father Jesus line thrown at them as justification for ignoring the needs of their families. Jesus spoke that way on the basis that he was pretty darned sure that the Kingdom was coming verysoon. He alienated his town, family, and pretty much everyone who didn't agree with his take on everything. I guess it seemed like a good idea at the time. I struggled with that idea early in my walk, and I certainly don't agree now. Which was largely kept under wraps by even those who personally experienced those things. Don't you think someone with a modicum of common sense would at least try to educate others on the perils of going WoW? Based on my personal experiences, I found many of the higher ups ideas about how the world worked to be lacking in any sense of reality. I could not trust that they would act in my best interest and lived my life accordingly. Sure I heard about it, but as I was fond of saying, "It is my life we're talking about, not yours." When did that lightbulb go off? I am not trying to make light of all this, but I am rather amazed at how people have turned against what was believed to be the only right thing to do with one's life at least once if you were involved in the way. IF you believed the only way to "move the Word over the world" was by selling everything and devoting a year to living in a different place, witnessing, and running a so-called bible class, then I think no one could seriously claim they weren't doing what they wanted to do. The whole idea was to rely on God to meet the needs. As I told one of my pastors yesterday, I have rarely had that level of faith, so I didn't consider myself a good candidate for the "opportunity." Fooled me once; shame on you. Fooled me twice; shame on me.

Are you kidding? The atmosphere at one of those gatherings was electric. It made people want to go WoW and be a part of the experience. I knew people who made decisions on the spot based on the emotional aspects of those experiences. I know I wanted to go UNTIL I sat down and read the rule book. The enthusiasm quickly dissipated. I don't know if people were encouraged to see what one was committing to prior to signing up, but I made sure I did. It's one thing to come back to an experience with fresh eyes and perspective. It's quite another to discount what you were actually feeling at the time - and most of you thought it was the best thing you were planning to do or had ever done and also thought it was something everyone should do, at least once - the more times the better. The disdain I experienced when I made it clear I wasn't up for a year of WoW ambassadorship was real even though I believed I was making an informed decision. I can't tell you the number of people who tried to get me to look past the rule book in making my decision. The only person who suggested I pay close attention to the rule book was my then boyfriend who had been college WoW. Isn't there any middle ground? Going WoW was a choice. Regardless of the outcome it was a learning experience - even if that learning included figuring out you never wanted to do it again.

And this also applies to the thoughts that most of us had that "other" religious organizations had too much time and energy invested in *their* respective belief systems to consider another position while *WE* were open to new and different ideas - all the while we were in the same rut as the groups we held in such disdain.

How many can you relate from your twi experience??? Mine are in Red 25 Signs of Cult Behavior * 1. The Guru is always right. * 2. You are always wrong. * 3. No Humor. * 4. The End Justifies The Means. * 5. Cult-speak. * 6. Group-think, Suppression of Dissent, and Enforced Conformity in Thinking * 7. Irrationality. * 8. Suspension of disbelief. * 9. Denigration of competing sects, cults, religions... * 10. Personal attacks on critics. * 11. Insistence that the cult is THE ONLY WAY. * 12. The cult and its members are special. * 13. Induction of guilt, and the use of guilt to manipulate cult members. * 14. Unquestionable Dogma, Sacred Science, and Infallible Ideology. * 15. Indoctrination of members. * 16. Appeals to "holy" or "wise" authorities. * 17. Instant Community. * 18. Instant Intimacy. * 19. Surrender To The Cult. * 20. Create a sense of powerlessness, covert fear, guilt, and dependency. * 21. Ideology Over Experience, Observation, and Logic * 22. Grandiose existence. Bombastic, Grandiose Claims. * 23. Enemy-making and Devaluing the Outsider * 24. True Believers * 25. We Have The Panacea.

It was always interesting to find out what religion people grew up in. One of our corp families grew up Catholic and I commented that it must have been an easy leap going from pope to VPW and the catechism to PFAL. I don't think she got it.

Borrowing heavily from the mindset - TWI could not grow any larger than its founder - because he couldn't get his mind wrapped around the idea that it could be bigger than him. But then again that could be a "God thing" designed to bring the whole thing to a screeching merciful halt since most of the people involved at the top had lost their ability to think critically.