Tzaia

A look at "Christmas Past."

It can, but apparently a few can't do it without throwing detractors under the bus by discounting personal experience as hearsay.

So did that make you well informed or a busy-body?

Stark and Bainbridge started with 7 axioms: A1 Human perception and action take place through time, from the past into the future. A2 Humans seek what they perceive to be rewards and avoid what they believe to be costs. A3 Rewards vary in kind, value, and generality. A4 Human action is directed by a complex but finite information-processing system [i.e. the mind] that functions to identity problems and identify solutions to them. A5 Some desired rewards are limited in supply, including some that simply do not exist. A6 Most rewards sought by humans are destroyed when they are used. A7 Individual and social attributes which determine power are unequally distributed among persons and groups in any society. So how this relates to the decision to "join" TWI as opposed to other organizations? 1. For most of us the class cost money. The main idea was that while we would pay x amount of dollars, we would quickly recoup the investment through what was learned. (A2)(A3) 2. Manifestations, positive experiences, the tithe, and abundant sharing were "proof" that we were operating what we learned correctly. 3. Levels of involvement would also translate into levels of rewards; now and in the Kingdom. 4. There would be a system of like-minded adherents to keep one focused on the rewards. This is just the tip of the iceberg of why it was "rational" to belong to such an organization. Here's a link to one of the theorists: http://mysite.verizon.net/wsbainbridge/dl/sacal.htm

I have been doing an introductory study of religion - none in particular - but nonetheless I have found one lecture so enlightening that I'd really like to discuss it here in the context of why so many of us chose TWI and how it was a rational choice at the time and why people walked away (another rational choice). Here's a link to the download of the lecture. It's about 21mg and lasts for about 30 minutes.

I guess I had it wrong all these years (yea for me!) because I remembered it as "You can't go any further than what you know." As in the more you know, the further you go. Not being able to go any further than you're taught is really pretty limiting, especially when the "teaching" is limited.

None of the ones I know are particularly comfortable being on level ground with the unwashed masses, even though they think they're being "mighty white". There is also the problem with spontaneity. The ones I know don't do that well and it takes being able to think on your feet well in order to have time for other things. They also lack the gift (at least I think it is) of brevity. I can't even read their stuff anymore because of how long-winded they all are.

I don't think being a victim gives anyone an excuse.

Ok, fair enough. Many who made it to the last session of PFAL were hooked. Most everyone who (got) gets to the place where (s)he (felt) feels (s)he (had) has to enter a program to feel like (s)he (was) is serving God, (s)he (was) is happily lapping it all up. I think it falls under Rodney Stark's Rational Choice Theory. "The basic idea of rational choice theory is that patterns of behavior in societies reflect the choices made by individuals as they try to maximize their benefits and minimize their costs. In other words, people make decisions about how they should act by comparing the costs and benefits of different courses of action. As a result, patterns of behavior will develop within the society that result from those choices." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_choice_theory As people (invested) invest more time, money, and energy in something they (believed) believe (would) will ultimately benefit them, they (were) are forced to ignore clear signs that "benefits" (would) will not be forthcoming, at least in this life. VPW's lifestyle was somewhat of a carrot that drove people to act in his best interest, even at great personal sacrifice, as a means of receiving some benefit. For some it was "the hope". For others it was the opportunity to lord it over others, while claiming they weren't.

VPW was a victim as much as anyone. Because of his stance towards cancer, and where it came from, he apparently didn't seek treatment for his cancer in a timely manner, which ultimately killed him. Instead of simply being ill, he harbored this dirty, shameful secret. What a way to die. He had a good thing going until it reared up its head and wacked him. He had people's unquestioning loyalty. He was living the dream. There was this sense from the hard-core followers that he would be the next guy to overcome death; that somehow the laws of nature just didn't apply to him. I remember thinking what would happen when this guy dies and people find out he's just a guy. It was almost surreal. When he was scheduled to roll into town (I'm remembering the yearly visit during the Indy 500), people acted as though we were getting a visit from the Pope. At least you could count on the coffee not being made from used grinds and served in used Styrofoam cups. So now we've got people who deny that he screwed up, people who ignore that he screwed up, and people who are angry because he never admitted that he screwed up. But no one ever held him to any standard of accountability when he was alive. People knew he had plagiarized, but never spoke out against it. It was understood that he borrowed heavily from other people's work. People allowed him to twist the meanings of words and concepts like adultery and fornication. Pretty much no one told the guy no. He surrounded himself with people who catered to his every whim. He developed a training program that attracted people who would do his bidding without question, or risk being dismissed in shame. Most of you lapped it up and denigrated anyone who wasn't in it all the way like you were, or were willing to offer financial support. I know because I was one of those people. I really do believe that most everyone shares some blame in shaping him into the leader and person he was.

Really? Don't you think that if he were going to apologize that he wouldn't need to be asked? The only time I ever asked someone to apologize to me for hurting me, I was met with stone cold silence. That's when I figured out that people who feel they've done something wrong tend to apologize and those who don't, don't.

Can't call them Bereans. I can't remember the teaching or the circumstances, but I do remember coming home and telling my husband that for a "research" ministry, people didn't do a whole lot of research, or thinking, or anything else that involved intellect.

If you were in a top band (and I'm not saying you weren't), I find the lack of capitalization on that by TWI to be remarkable. Not due to your ability, but more for your fame. Even if you aren't a front man, there is still a fan base.

Without clear verbiage concerning distribution rights, resale rights, or sale rights, TWI is probably up a creek without a paddle. I would have to think that if TWI wanted to or could, they would have stopped the listing of those tapes. I'm leaning towards can't. Now that most people don't care what TWI thinks, threats just don't have the power they used to have.

My gripe with all these splinters is that every leader has stayed in some position of authority over others. Not one of them has stepped down and submitted to someone else, much less attempted to seek understanding by going too far outside their theological comfort zone. Until they can do that, I don't believe a one of them will ever really get it. I don't know VF and know very little about him other than other people's gushing when he was part of TWI and JAL's occasional reference to him in conversation. I don't care. I don't care what he believes, who he has aligned himself with, or how much closer to "mainstream" he appears to be. There is still that undercurrent of arrogance. The reality is that we are constrained to seeing through a dark glass and that (if you believe what is written) is by design. It's not so wrong to continually seek truth, but I do believe it's wrong to be convinced that you have the truth because we're told it is not possible. Because having the whole truth is not possible, the Christian community needs to work on what is possible, which is loving God and loving others, including enemies. If those commandments are only possible within the context of "rightly dividing" and/or "like-mindedness," then I believe the point has been missed. Oh, and Mark, Jesus was pretty sure the kingdom was going to be coming within his generation. Some have argued that his crucifixion might have been his way of hurrying it along. Whether that's true or not, one of his main points was that until the kingdom has come, his followers were to live as though it had already arrived. While exceedingly difficult, I think that's a great way to be.

Mark, I think DWBH's whole point (and please let me know if I'm wrong DWBH) is that Vince's faith, practice, and behavior has not shifted to the extent that he has picked up the phone to apologize to DWBH for the behaviors that personally affected DWBH, therefore he believes the whole "I've changed" thing is a bit suspect. I tend to agree. Almost all the splinters have shifted some of the theology, but the element of having "the truth" and the need to be right is still glaringly apparent.

Based upon the number of paranoia and conspiracy theory moments I experienced while involved in TWI and splinter, I have no doubt that people monitor these boards for activity. But to call you is a bit over the top, don'cha think? I don't know what to call it besides arrogance, but the need to interject wayspeak at times like this (assuming to instruct the unwashed masses about "the truth") never ceases to amaze me.

Catcup, sorry for your loss of a friend. How was the obit supposed to read?

Interesting, yet naive idea.

I'm sort of saddened that it is being listed as a "Buy Now" or "Make an Offer" option. Three declined offers - no idea what people are offering. Bummer.

Not enough of them? TWI could think that the tailspin is in direct relationship to the lack of numbers rightly believing. Then there are the numerous sects that believe the downturn is god's punishment.

The truth is that VPW and LCM operated rather openly, but called what they were doing something different. Anyone who pointed that out was shown the door in order to avoid contaminating others. VPW probably knew what he was doing. Unfortunately, he didn't get that his successor would have to get it. LCM did not get it. The whole tone of TWI changed under LCM. Geer did get it, but he should have never publicized LCM's lack of awareness. When he basically forced people to take sides, people started considering different alternatives. I believe that was an unexpected consequence.

The irony is that it was something that people paid money to receive, and then went out and actively recruited others.

VPW was obviously a "victim" of a lack of checks and balances. Of course, that was by design. There was only room for willing minions, and there were a lot of them.

I've been on Facebook for a while - like when it was only open to college students. For a large part of that while I was almost "friendless" for 2 reasons. 1: It was hard to navigate, even tho I am a techie. and 2: I was the only person my age. I finally broke down and friended a few people and then it made sense. I like the privacy controls and have connected with a number of people I haven't seen in years. I have a myspace page, but I'm not all that thrilled with the anonymous aspect of it. I also have a LinkedIn account where I keep professional information. The 30-50 yr old is its largest growing demographic in Facebook, and I plan to get my 82 yr old mother on there as my brother is moving across the country. It will allow her to keep in better contact with people. It has been for me an easy, innocuous way to keep in contact with people I know.