Tzaia

Which begs the question: (mustering up my best Dr. Phil inspired Texas twang) How's that werkin' fer ya now Craig?

I know. There were times when I emotionally wanted to do what some of you were doing - it seemed like such a good way to serve the Lord. Then I looked at the reality - people "equipped" by the organization to do little more than manual labor. People living little more beyond a hand-to-mouth existence due to commitments to the organization. People giving up good jobs and decent lifestyles in order to serve the organization. Honestly, I was amazed at how well people washed windows and emptied port-a-potties, but to do it for a living? I simply wasn't ready to give my life up for that, and fortunately my husband didn't want to do any more than what we were doing. At the time I felt like I didn't measure up and joked about where I would spend eternity in comparison to those who had truly given up all they had.

Have you ever noticed how easy it is for someone who has no debts (because they live in someone else's house rent free and have everything bought for them) to talk about what's best for everyone else?

The first time I heard that was the last time I ever got coerced into volunteering to help clean someone else's house. I would politely say that I have my own house to clean. Interestingly enough, when JAL moved back to town and bought a house, he expected other people to do all the cleaning, yard work, and maintenance. I guess a few did in the beginning. Then people got a clue and stopped doing it. I suggested that he do what the rest of us do, which is either don't do it, hire someone else to do it, or do it.

I don't care why it was pulled. A couple of people downloaded it and I was asking if there was some way of getting the video.

Is there some way you can share this (as it did get taken down)?

This isn't all that strange, although I think the way it was handled leaves a lot to be desired. I belong to the Great Banquet community and people are invited by members of the community to spend 3 nights and 3 days in a sequestered area of the church to hear talks, eat great food, and fellowship. A team of around 60 people and a community of helpers basically present this weekend to the guests. The weekend starts on Thursday with the guests not really knowing who is a guest and who is on team, and nearly everything is handled by either the team or the community, including getting up, meds, and whatever else is needed to make the weekend work. By Sunday morning, the guests are expected to pitch in to break down the sleeping areas and help in other ways. The full-blown love out lasts through Saturday night with the descent to earth starting Sunday morning. It is a bit of a shock after all the special treatment, but not because people get in your face - mainly because you are dead tired. Guests are encouraged to help on teams or as a part of the community on subsequent weekends, but no one is required to do anything beyond the weekend, including pay for the weekend, which costs around $75 per person in food. (no bad coffee) If someone comes constantly comes in late and always disrupts the meeting, then a private discussion about not being disruptive is warranted, but supporting the "bad" behavior and then criticizing it because a class was taken is just insane. I heard it. I got it. I ignored it. Over the years I have gotten much better about being on time, but it was not because of PFAL - more along the lines of in spite of.

MG ignored my friend request on Facebook. I guess I'm totally out of the loop now. :(

Perhaps because nobody bothered to save the archives before the domains lapsed.

I think most of us have experienced paradigm-shifting moments in our lives. Most of them can be characterized as Aha! moments. What concerns me is when those moments are forced or coerced. The final session of PFAL where people are led into tongues was an example of that coercion (at least for me). Garth- there is a certain level of coercion in alter calls. It's one of the reasons why my church doesn't do them. There is this build up in an emotionally charged environment that causes people to have that moment. I know of a few people who have snapped (one called it "radically saved") at that moment and never went back. I remember getting caught up in the moment a number of times, but I was more like the seed planted in the rock. Moodiness was not a well-tolerated quality in TWI. People who are moody tend to be very aware of their surroundings and are affected by them. Training such as Momentus would provided such a sensory overload that disassociating would not be an "abnormal" response in that type of personality. That weekend probably provided the perfect storm that caused her to completely disengage herself emotionally from her surroundings. I guess mind-numbing cheerfulness is better than simple mind-numbness.

I hear them talking about growing in Christ. But let's talk a bit about "sound doctrine." Jesus was utterly convinced that the new age was near, which created this urgency to get our lives in order to be able to experience this new age. It was also obvious by the time that the 4 gospels were written that he wasn't right about that. In Jesus' lifetime and soon afterward, was ok to live a hand to mouth existence because that wasn't going to last very long, but unfortunately, it's lasted people's entire lifetime for many generations. So the Christian is stuck in the middle of the notion that they could experience the new life at some point in their earthly lifetime, while statistically speaking, it probably won't happen. I believe the low probability has given rise to the prosperity doctrine. I don't think it's such a bad thing. Is it "right" doctrine? Not technically. But in the scheme of things, I think leading people to believe that physical adultery isn't wrong has greater consequences on society at large than telling people that God wants them to prosper.

And TWI promised you would have that in a way that you could not experience elsewhere. What you needed to do to receive these rewards was a small price (at the time) for what was promised in the future. Would you not gain greater rewards for your "special" gift? I'm just trying to tell you that it was a very rational decision based on the kinds of rewards promised. VPW's grace theology was perfect for the time.

Just the idiot who's willing to pay $2500.

Me too, sista. We're not worthy, We're not worthy, We're not worthy. (We suck!) Wayne's World, scene with Alice Cooper

Actually, I was past the point of rebellion. Sure my mother warned me about TWI, but not because it was a cult, but more because it was Christianity beyond C & E involvement and she was against Christianity, but that never stopped me, nor did it push me towards involvement. Also, I didn't feel I was rebelling against society, rather I was working to build a better society for Christians to live in.

Dot - I have read most of the "boundaries" books - and own most of them. It took reading them twice before it started to sink in. FWIW, most of my boundary issues had little to do with my involvement in TWI. The hard part in TWI (and CES) was ignoring all the "helpful advice" on how to live my life while remaining "in". I was probably referred to as one of those "tripped-out" people, but chose to ignore it (for the most part) unless it was not subtle. Finally, I decided being a part of it and any offshoot on any level simply wasn't worth the effort. Once I realized that TWI (or CES) really could not make good on the supernatural promises made on behalf of Jesus, (prosperity, abundance, special treatment in the kingdom in return for loyalty to the organization) I could look at what was taught with fresh eyes and see how convoluted the whole thing was, is, and continues to be. I got tired of the references to devil possession and being possessed every time I voiced a dissenting opinion. And finally I got sick of having to feed that bottomless pit of righteousness through rightness (correct doctrine).

Dot - I have read most of the "boundaries" books - and own most of them. It took reading them twice before it started to sink in. FWIW, most of my boundary issues had little to do with my involvement in TWI. The hard part in TWI (and CES) was ignoring all the "helpful advice" on how to live my life while remaining "in". I was probably referred to as one of those "tripped-out" people, but chose to ignore it (for the most part) unless it was not subtle. Finally, I decided being a part of it and any offshoot on any level simply wasn't worth the effort. Once I realized that TWI (or CES) really could not make good on the supernatural promises made on behalf of Jesus, (prosperity, abundance, special treatment in the kingdom in return for loyalty to the organization) I could look at what was taught with fresh eyes and see how convoluted the whole thing was, is, and continues to be. I got tired of the references to devil possession and being possessed every time I voiced a dissenting opinion. And finally I got sick of having to feed that bottomless pit of righteousness through rightness (correct doctrine).

I don't think this choice is necessarily about smart people/dumb mistake. It seemed like a no-brainer when given the promise of greater future rewards and limitless prosperity. The dumb part enters in when people continued to believe the theology long past the point of receiving any "return on investment."

Exactly. The offering was "unique" through the compensator, who was VPW and his teaching.

A2 Humans seek what they perceive to be rewards and avoid what they believe to be costs. A3 Rewards vary in kind, value, and generality. A5 Some desired rewards are limited in supply, including some that simply do not exist. At the beginning, taking the PFAL class (supposedly) provides great rewards at relatively low cost. You get all this knowledge for the low, low, price of $x. Theoretically, one should be able to take that knowledge and put it to use - BUT - it's really not all that easy unless you are attending twig 3x per week and abundant sharing. If you are attending 3x a week and abundant sharing, you will become a member of the household. Now I used to joke that while some of my fellow wayfers would be sitting in the kitchen with Jesus, my place in paradise would probably be in the outhouse since my involvement was minimal. Your place in the household was in direct proportion to what you were doing in this life to "move the word." The gotcha is that one never really knew what "enough" was. I would wager that every last one of you who went into some sort of TWI "continuing education" or "service" did so with the "promise" of greater future rewards and more abundant current prosperity, which TWI promised would happen if you applied the advanced "keys" correctly. Moving "the word" in TWI fashion and intensity was the ticket, but there was always that sense of it never being enough to ensure the reward. Even in the face of glaring contradictory "senses" information, people were very sure that doing all these things was going to provide them with those elusive rewards and those unseen rewards, so they kept on doing it. One of the ways that was done was through minimalizing the effect of "senses" knowledge and capitalizing on information received through the "spiritual realm," which no one wanted to admit they weren't getting. Then you had to worry about which "spiritual realm" you were partaking in. Since no one really knew the difference, we were to be dependent on those who did. Only those who had risen in the ranks through the giving of money and time (and time devoted to learning the keys) were thought to be able to accurately discern, thereby providing a level of mediation between this world and the spiritual world. People wanted to accurately discern and perhaps mediate themselves, so they continued in this quest by giving more time and more money, thereby earning their way to that position. The only person who wasn't tied into this system of rewards was the founder and his immediate posse. He set himself up as this all-knowing guy and got a fair amount of people convinced that he was the one with all the information necessary to get the special rewards that weren't available to the mainstream Christian. So, while many things that happened in TWI assaulted your senses world sensibilities, the notion that all this was operating in the spiritual realm beyond your understanding seemed rational in the TWI setting.

Talk about getting screwed all the way around.

I believe you are one that needn't put them on ignore, because you can hold your own and can beat them at their own game. I won't ignore them for the same reason you do. They remind me of where I was and where I need to be. People who find themselves whipped into a frenzy over the comments might consider ignoring.

Honestly, why do any of you give them any level of power over your life? What difference does it make what they say or think? Really? Do you not get that it's this caring about what others think that caused more than a few of you to do things that you aren't particularly proud of? If you really don't like it, put them on your ignore list.