Tzaia

Perhaps some of us believed that our authentic selves was not what Christ would want us to be, so we conformed to someone else's image of God and Christ. I honestly believe that most of the people here did what they did because they believed they (or someone) felt it (whatever "it" was) was the right thing to do to live godly lives. Where TWI is like so many other controlling religious organizations is that there isn't any room for individuality, much less authenticity because *our* essence is dead in trespasses and sin. The organization sees the need to stamp that out because man is evil to the core in his authentic state. Of course in the course of doing that, the organization, which is man-made, fails to understand that it was formed by and run by people equally as dead in trespasses and sins. That's where VPW had to bring in the miracle aspect. That offsets the sin part. I was ok with some level of "control" until I found out I was dealing with a system of leadership that was utterly depraved. Once I found that out, any and all sense of them knowing what was "best" was gone. There's no "miracle" that will restore credibility. They all failed the above reproach criteria of leadership.

The expectations were not harsh if that's the way you're wired. There are many people who keep that kind of house and who live that sort of life. I say fabulous. What is not fabulous is when you aren't wired that way and are somehow expected to conform. Again, I think that when people live together, it needs to be in the spirit of cooperation. No one should have to deal with a wildly messy individual in shared quarters, and no one should be required to live where only perfection is permitted if they aren't wired that way. It's one thing to like a clean house and not mind spending time doing those kind of things. It's even great when everyone pitches in to help. What is not great is when someone else determines what is clean and then insists that you live up to that standard when it's not their house. What's even worse is when you call on other people to help provide that standard and expect them to give that time and offer nothing in return except that one should feel "blessed" to do it.

Numbers may have been attached, but the big thing was that ROA was the one time when everyone gathered and a good way of seeing who was still standing. There was an element of being able to show up without pre-registering if you weren't planning on staying on site (which we never did). I think that initially many of the higher ups were in such denial about how many left that they simply did what was always done. Later, it became evident that the gatherings allowed people to share information (and we all know how bad that is). I think ROA was stopped because it was a glaring reminder of the level of decimation of the rank and file, even for those steeped in denial.

It is our perception of those events (which is determined by a number of things) that shapes our experience.

Did any of this crap improve the quality of life?

Which ties in with my theory of rational choice thread.

Still looking for a copy!!!!!!

That he did not. TWI did not appreciate our uniqueness as individuals. VPW certainly didn't want to preserve that. He wanted to remake people to suit his purposes.

My purpose is not to be critical and negative. I really do want to understand. There are times I hate being a cynic, but it does serve me to a certain extent. The day someone got in my face like what happened to you was, for me, a revelation. My response was not totally appropriate, and I am learning how to be properly assertive rather than aggressive in situations where I'm not being heard. My memory of TWI is along the lines that assertiveness was viewed as being aggressive if delivered by a lesser person. I realize assertiveness is harder when there is more of an emotional investment. Passivity is a huge problem in religion and is almost considered a fruit of the spirit in Christianity. The danger I see in these forums is the near universal thought that one shouldn't have been put in the position where one had to stand up for one's rights. Perhaps that is true, but it's not the reality. Not in TWI and not in any other Christian community that I have been involved with - past or present. I guess my next question is why should they have cared about individual's rights and feelings when they weren't important enough for the individuals to stand for?

I doubt it. 15% is basically the cost of belonging to the household in the coming age. It doesn't really matter where it's going now. It's a prepayment for the future.

Pretty much from the beginning, I was of the opinion that LCM was an arrogant dick-head. What I can't figure out is what the rest of you EVER saw in him. <_< It appears that in retrospect, most of you had utter contempt for him, but not nearly enough to disengage yourself from the madness; and it apparently was madness. :(

The guy "runs" a Christian ministry (into the ground) and when cut loose (with a stipend) can do nothing better than exactly what he placed exceedingly high value on while he was at the helm. Justice? Probably. At least he gets paid to do it.

So why did so many of you passively accept the craziness? Why did so many of you stay in until you were told to leave? What stopped you from speaking up when apparently you knew what you were being asked to do was stupid, crazy, or downright wrong? Fear of confrontation? Fear of retribution? Fear of getting kicked out? Fear of God's punishment? If you were so fear motivated, why were you so afraid? I'm not asking rhetorically. I was involved in the same ministry, but I did not have the same experience.

He was a freakin' genius. He got whole groups of people to move rocks without question or complaint, and who (in essence) paid for the "privilege" to do so.

A humorous look at assertiveness: http://tinyurl.com/cll3jj It's about 26 minutes and geared toward business, but it is useful.

As I was writing this, I realized I might be derailing another thread, so I started another. Interesting perspective. Incredibly self-limiting, but interesting none-the-less. Personally, I wouldn't give TWI all that much credit, or that much power. There are 2 verses in the Bible that come to mind - Train a child in the way he should go and he will not depart from it (paraphrased) Another verse speaks about the ability to make choices once one becomes an adult - despite the childhood. The first one is not a "sentence" in that whatever you're taught is how you must live. Habits started early tend to be habits for life, but they don't have to be, especially the self-destructive habits. The second one holds us accountable for our choices as adults. That second verse was my "grounding" verse as an adult. I remembered that verse every time leadership tried to talk me into doing something I really didn't want to do that I didn't think it would benefit me or my family (usually revolving around time/money). Ultimately I was the one who would have to deal with the "consequences" of my choices. If someone didn't like that, I would tell them they wouldn't be standing in my place at the judgment. [digression] Because TWI doesn't have buildings in every area to meet in and hold events, holding meetings and having events is far more complicated. Homes have to be kept up (in spite of small children) and furnishings have to be bought to hold the meetings using personal $$. While it seems like a great idea to spread the fellowships around to multiple homes, really all it does is put the burden on everyone who holds a fellowship in their home. Events have another layer of headache in planning. HQ solved that problem by building an auditorium, but for the rest of us, we have had to deal with location, furnishing, food, storage, etc. I don't think HQ begins to understand the level of complication that is added to every gathering. I know it didn't back when I was involved. (I think the early church met in homes in small groups because small groups naturally lend themselves to pastoring one another. Since pastoring was/is not a part of TWI mentality, I can only assume that home fellowships was actually devised as a cost saving measure under the guise of behaving like a 1st century church.) TWI further compounded the problem by demanding this self-indulgent standard of "excellence" that simply puts undo stress on people. Some simply "renewed their mind" to something that didn't work well and either did it themselves or browbeat others into doing it with them or for them. I took much of the pressure to participate in setting up and helping run meetings from my higher ups as simply a way of offloading the pressure they were getting from their higher ups. Furthermore, many events were "compulsory," for those who were involved beyond being a leaf in a twig and not attending wasn't an option if one wanted to maintain his/her position. There was a fair amount of animosity towards those who had no compulsion to be involved, therefore no reason to help. If it occurred to anyone above me to suggest we do fewer gatherings or find another way to do them, no one was sharing that upstream. In fact, it seemed like the solution to the problem was to add gatherings. However difficult it was at the time, I personally made the choice to not make HQ's high ideals my ideals. If it was going to cause an undue hardship on my family, I was not going to do it. I think as more people had that epiphany and backed off the level of involvement, LCM became more shrill and dictatorial, rather than reassess and come up with a different plan. That's just my opinion. [further digression] Because of the confrontational nature of various aspects of leadership, if one was not sufficiently assertive, then one could either be passive, and do what was told, or passive aggressive, and "agree" yet somehow not actually show up or work if one did show up. <== which was a real headache to those of us who did take our commitments seriously. I was not aware of any kind of assertiveness training while involved in TWI as assertiveness was probably viewed as a bad thing, but authentic willingness is a better gauge of success than leveraging power, IMO. [/further digression] [/digression] Taking PFAL and learning the Bible gave me the tools and the presence of mind to be able to stand my ground and realize that I didn't need to please God by pleasing leadership. Was it difficult to hold my ground? Yes it was, but me understanding that I was ultimately responsible shaped my decision-making process. This was a huge break from how I was raised and I credit PFAL for showing me that. I think it was an unintended consequence, but no one could argue against "it is written" - at least with me. The vast majority of people entered the various levels of TWI with the best and purest of intentions, regardless of the stench at the top. I don't think anyone deliberately put themselves or their families in harm's way, and I think that counts for something. All of us subjected ourselves to this organization at various levels for the good we felt we would receive in return. It was a bad call. Most of us didn't pay for that with our lives. We lost time, relationships, and opportunities, but it wasn't the end of the world. We can't get the time back, but we can open ourselves to new relationships and opportunities and make good use of the time we have left. I think a few are upset because you weren't allowed to stay. You couldn't bend and comply enough for them to deem you worthy. That hurts. Even though you've moved on physically, there's always that aching why churning around in your head. You may never get your answer and you may never be able to break free from the memories. Sometimes "closure" isn't possible. Sometimes all you can do is close the door and do what you need to do to stop visiting those times and reliving the emotions. I think some of you want to attribute your choices to brainwashing, or mind control, but with the exception of the children, every last one of us determined our level of involvement. Age and lack of maturity may have been a factor, and TWI obviously took advantage of those factors, but the decision was always ours. The children are a different story, but even then they weren't so overtaken that most of them can't imagine life apart from TWI. There is some unlearning involved with an effective parting of the ways, but I don't know anyone who doesn't have to unlearn a few things along the way. Each one of us has a unique, authentic self, and I believe that is a necessary element of Christianity even as it causes an element of divisiveness in the body. I also believe that the deeper one's involvement in TWI, the more likely the tendency to distance oneself from being authentic and the deeper one has to go to un(re)cover the authentic self. The irony is that either way, you can't fool God. (modified to correct grammar)

Thank you, thank you, thank you for saying that.

Bullsh!t. Don't you think the room being set up would serve as the memory jog? They simply didn't want to put it back. When labor is cheap (as in free) and easy to come by (as in you racing your butt across town to see what was wrong) it's not hard to take advantage of such devotion. In fact, it's a waste to not milk it for all its worth.

My class took place in a small, cramped apartment. We sat where we could. It was neat and clean, but nothing that stood out in my mind. No precise chair arranging that I was aware of. I served on one PFAL team, which was a joke. I never saw so much passive-aggressive behavior in my life (up to that point). Absolutely everything was 10 times more difficult than it ever needed to be, including setup.

Apparently I was never around when the string and tape measure came out. I never heard of chair stringing until I came here. If I had seen it, I probably would have had to stifle a few giggles, as people who need that sort of thing to line things up probably don't have a good eye for that kind of thing. Anyone who does have that kind of eye needs to be using that gift on something more important than chair alignment. Perhaps it was all the focus on the trivial that kept people from seeing the big picture.

TWI was a haven for abusers and the abused. For the abused, TWI's dynamic was a source of comfort. For the abuser, TWI provided an outlet. TWI placed a high value on conformity and being in the corp was the hallmark of conformity. Those who didn't choose that path had to find satisfaction in other ways, and that usually involved spending time socializing our children to conform to TWI "standards" of acceptable behavior, and doing penance in the form of unpaid labor for leadership and allowing them way too much access into our personal lives. The mixed signals you got from your parents undoubtedly added to your psychic pain. I have no doubt that both parents were in a war of wills with you children squarely in the middle. I doubt if it's much consolation, but what went on with you is common in families with parents who have radical differences in religious beliefs and parenting practices. A lot of blame gets thrown around and the kids always lose.

The thought of death and afterlife wasn't much of a motivator for me while in TWI. It's even less now. My upbringing was centered around the spiritual world, namely the mystical, so I found TWI's take on the spirit realm interesting. Where I probably diverged from TWI thinking was that I believed GOD provided the hedge of protection, not adherence to TWI's rules.

geez <== been doing a lot of that lately...

That's pretty pathetic.

So, essentially what started out as someone's bright idea for a particular situation became a general rule of thumb for every situation? It must be tied in with that mathematical precision thing.